Discussion
Kitchski said:
It's not just another Vulcan; it's THE Vulcan.
Only when it was flying, and so, since 2015 it IS just another Vulcan, or rather it was one of three that are live and fast taxi capable.And even than, it was in the wrong place to be able to do that with much public access, again why DSA was the wrong place.
One of only two things are going to happen with '558.
1) It gets scrapped insitu and VTTS finally gets wound up (not before time) and there is some hope that all the servicable items can go to 655 and 426, but if the VTTS team are desperate to cream off as much money as possible, this will not be a generous donation to those two groups, and they'll rather see the bits sold to its fanboys as ornanments than keep the other two Vulcans live.
2) VTTS con even more money out its fanboys to cover the cost of chopping it up and re-locating it somewhere, in the hope that despite the fact it will never be live again, they can continue to con money out of its fanbase to line their pockets and keep up the charade of responsibility to keeping 558 going, even though it will be then in a worse state than many of the others such as the one at Duxford.
I doubt they can raise the money to do that anyway, so my view is option 1) is what its fate will be.
Its not even a good representative of the breed in terms of preservation as a dead Vulcan, as its far removed from any service spec Vulcan, because of its post RAF service flying days (and even when with the VDF)
Tony1963 said:
Loads 
. But you were stating that 558 is The Vulcan when to many people it really isn’t. It’s worth saving if possible, and I’d be happy if it could be, but don’t be blinded by the fact that it’s the only one that many have seen fly.
To the majority (and by majority, I mean the general public who saw the thing flying and got caught up in it all, and aren't neccessarily ex-MOD or aircraft nerds), it's definitely 'The' Vulcan. . But you were stating that 558 is The Vulcan when to many people it really isn’t. It’s worth saving if possible, and I’d be happy if it could be, but don’t be blinded by the fact that it’s the only one that many have seen fly. You surely can't suggest that the people who know about Vulcans deep enough to understand the differences between B1 and B2, or the tanker trials, or the Luqa accident, or folk who could tell you why a 301 doesn't howl like a 201 does actually outnumber regular people who just see it as 'The Vulcan' and possibly donated to it, or visited it, or who saw it on TV programes like Guy Martin's or the like.
Knowledge isn't everything when it comes to an emotional connection, and an emotional connection can be far, far stronger than knowledge of how something works. To the majority of people, that aircraft is more important than any other Vulcan in existance, and that's a hill I'm willing die to on
It's all irrelevant as it'll be hacked up and sold off in bits at extortionate rates to give the board one last payday. The rest will go over the bridge.
aeropilot said:
Kitchski said:
It's not just another Vulcan; it's THE Vulcan.
Only when it was flying, and so, since 2015 it IS just another Vulcan, or rather it was one of three that are live and fast taxi capable.And even than, it was in the wrong place to be able to do that with much public access, again why DSA was the wrong place.
One of only two things are going to happen with '558.
1) It gets scrapped insitu and VTTS finally gets wound up (not before time) and there is some hope that all the servicable items can go to 655 and 426, but if the VTTS team are desperate to cream off as much money as possible, this will not be a generous donation to those two groups, and they'll rather see the bits sold to its fanboys as ornanments than keep the other two Vulcans live.
2) VTTS con even more money out its fanboys to cover the cost of chopping it up and re-locating it somewhere, in the hope that despite the fact it will never be live again, they can continue to con money out of its fanbase to line their pockets and keep up the charade of responsibility to keeping 558 going, even though it will be then in a worse state than many of the others such as the one at Duxford.
I doubt they can raise the money to do that anyway, so my view is option 1) is what its fate will be.
Its not even a good representative of the breed in terms of preservation as a dead Vulcan, as its far removed from any service spec Vulcan, because of its post RAF service flying days (and even when with the VDF)
I appreciate that, objectively, it's just another Vulcan, but if you only look at it objectively, you don't see the whole story. Objectively, it made no sense to put the thing back in the sky at all. It was peoples' emotions and feelings that caused them to dip their hands in their pockets, and it's that connection that makes it such a special aircraft.
Kitchski said:
To the majority (and by majority, I mean the general public who saw the thing flying and got caught up in it all, and aren't neccessarily ex-MOD or aircraft nerds), it's definitely 'The' Vulcan.
You surely can't suggest that the people who know about Vulcans deep enough to understand the differences between B1 and B2, or the tanker trials, or the Luqa accident, or folk who could tell you why a 301 doesn't howl like a 201 does actually outnumber regular people who just see it as 'The Vulcan' and possibly donated to it, or visited it, or who saw it on TV programes like Guy Martin's or the like.
Knowledge isn't everything when it comes to an emotional connection, and an emotional connection can be far, far stronger than knowledge of how something works. To the majority of people, that aircraft is more important than any other Vulcan in existance, and that's a hill I'm willing die to on
It's all irrelevant as it'll be hacked up and sold off in bits at extortionate rates to give the board one last payday. The rest will go over the bridge.
You say that but I'm on the east m Midlands airport spotters group on Facebook. Some people always get excited about seeing THE antonov. What they actually mean is one of the 55 AN124s, amongst the other types that used to visit here before February. It was only THE Vulcan while it was flying. Now it's just a Vulcan, one of 19.You surely can't suggest that the people who know about Vulcans deep enough to understand the differences between B1 and B2, or the tanker trials, or the Luqa accident, or folk who could tell you why a 301 doesn't howl like a 201 does actually outnumber regular people who just see it as 'The Vulcan' and possibly donated to it, or visited it, or who saw it on TV programes like Guy Martin's or the like.
Knowledge isn't everything when it comes to an emotional connection, and an emotional connection can be far, far stronger than knowledge of how something works. To the majority of people, that aircraft is more important than any other Vulcan in existance, and that's a hill I'm willing die to on
It's all irrelevant as it'll be hacked up and sold off in bits at extortionate rates to give the board one last payday. The rest will go over the bridge.
mcdjl said:
You say that but I'm on the east m Midlands airport spotters group on Facebook. Some people always get excited about seeing THE antonov. What they actually mean is one of the 55 AN124s, amongst the other types that used to visit here before February. It was only THE Vulcan while it was flying. Now it's just a Vulcan, one of 19.
Maybe they meant the AN-225? They'll be waiting a while, I suspect 
I just don't agree. Just because it's stopped flying, doesn't mean it's forgotten. That's why there are tonnes of old cars in museums, and the ones that achieved something in the public eye are more popular than others.
Kitchski said:
Maybe they meant the AN-225? They'll be waiting a while, I suspect
I just don't agree. Just because it's stopped flying, doesn't mean it's forgotten. That's why there are tonnes of old cars in museums, and the ones that achieved something in the public eye are more popular than others.
Nope, they regularly posted photos of one of the an124s. That said when the 225 was here 7/8 years back there was a Very large crowd to see it go.I just don't agree. Just because it's stopped flying, doesn't mean it's forgotten. That's why there are tonnes of old cars in museums, and the ones that achieved something in the public eye are more popular than others.
I disagree. Get one of the other Vulcans flying and see how long people 'care' about 558 for. I give it until the wheels lift off the ground. There's not enough care now to build a museum for it as it is.
mcdjl said:
Kitchski said:
Maybe they meant the AN-225? They'll be waiting a while, I suspect
I just don't agree. Just because it's stopped flying, doesn't mean it's forgotten. That's why there are tonnes of old cars in museums, and the ones that achieved something in the public eye are more popular than others.
Nope, they regularly posted photos of one of the an124s. That said when the 225 was here 7/8 years back there was a Very large crowd to see it go.I just don't agree. Just because it's stopped flying, doesn't mean it's forgotten. That's why there are tonnes of old cars in museums, and the ones that achieved something in the public eye are more popular than others.
I disagree. Get one of the other Vulcans flying and see how long people 'care' about 558 for. I give it until the wheels lift off the ground. There's not enough care now to build a museum for it as it is.
While that's not going to happen, once 558's second flying life was over, it should have been allocated to a museum (if any wanted it, that had a runway to take it, which was probably only 2 or 3 in the UK that didn't already have one).....
BUT........and this is the big BUT....that would have meant they wouldn't have got the HLF grant, and so it would never have flown again....hence the con of the HLF with all this guff about post flying museum and teaching future engineers nonsense, and thus the need for the money sucking charity and all the overheads associated with it. The HLF bought that story, and maybe the VTTS fanboys, but no one else did (not anyone with an once of knowledge of vintage aviation or UK museums etc)
mcdjl said:
I disagree. Get one of the other Vulcans flying and see how long people 'care' about 558 for. I give it until the wheels lift off the ground. There's not enough care now to build a museum for it as it is.
Yeah, but they won't get another Vulcan in the air, that's the point. That's what made this one unique. No Vulcan will ever fly again, but the one (most ordinary) people will remember, is 558.There's not enough care to build a museum now, I agree. There was never going to be, it was just some vanity project for some wealthy people. But, my point remains that despite all that, it's a hugely special aircraft for what it, and the team who supported it, achieved in living memory for a LOT of people who otherwise wouldn't have seen one fly.
The fact that 558 hit to skies for the second time in the digit era, where people were able to watch it online and experience it in ways the Vulcan fleet never could be took it to a whole new bunch of people, and made enthusiasts out of people who would otherwise not have known.
I just think letting the actions of the committee cloud the achievements of a group of people, and the aircraft they were in the care of is really sad when it provided so much good for so many people. I'm not saying the outcome can be changed, because I think that ship has sailed, but it's sad BECAUSE it's such an iconic example of an amazing aircraft.
Just my view.
aeropilot said:
Exactly.
While that's not going to happen, once 558's second flying life was over, it should have been allocated to a museum (if any wanted it, that had a runway to take it, which was probably only 2 or 3 in the UK that didn't already have one).....
BUT........and this is the big BUT....that would have meant they wouldn't have got the HLF grant, and so it would never have flown again....hence the con of the HLF with all this guff about post flying museum and teaching future engineers nonsense, and thus the need for the money sucking charity and all the overheads associated with it. The HLF bought that story, and maybe the VTTS fanboys, but no one else did (not anyone with an once of knowledge of vintage aviation or UK museums etc)
Don't disagree with any of that, though I think the HLF grant wouldn't have been such an open & shut case, though admittedly that's with the hindsight of knowing just how popular that aircraft was.While that's not going to happen, once 558's second flying life was over, it should have been allocated to a museum (if any wanted it, that had a runway to take it, which was probably only 2 or 3 in the UK that didn't already have one).....
BUT........and this is the big BUT....that would have meant they wouldn't have got the HLF grant, and so it would never have flown again....hence the con of the HLF with all this guff about post flying museum and teaching future engineers nonsense, and thus the need for the money sucking charity and all the overheads associated with it. The HLF bought that story, and maybe the VTTS fanboys, but no one else did (not anyone with an once of knowledge of vintage aviation or UK museums etc)
There are women on my FB feed who usually post pictures of cats, or themselves all dolled up for a night out, or their kids...and yet if they'd seen the Vulcan somewhere (Bournemouth Airshow, usually), they'd share it via social media.
Does that mean anything? In isolation, no, but when you consider that they've never shared anything of the sort before or since, you start to consider the impact that thing had. It was a flying celebrity, which I suppose is why the die-hard aviation enthusiasts are turning their back on it; It's commercial. It's sold out. The masses are into it, and hype is a repellent.
And I'm not judging, or criticising - we're all guilty of it. If a Bugatti Veyron drove past me, my response would be 'Meh!' But if a Lexus LFA did (a car only car people tend to 'get') I'd be like a schoolboy seeing knickers for the first time. Some things do transcend that gap, though (F40, 911, Citroen DS, Mini, Beetle, Concorde etc...there are loads). I put the Vulcan in that category.
Kitchski said:
It doesn't stop being significant because it's not flying.
It really does stop being significant, its just another museum piece except it has no significant operational history to make it worthy enough to make space in a collection for especially when other museums in the country have one. You further mention about those who don’t like planes liking it and posting photos, yet now its on the ground those same people will likely show no interest in it.
ecsrobin said:
It really does stop being significant, its just another museum piece except it has no significant operational history to make it worthy enough to make space in a collection for especially when other museums in the country have one.
You further mention about those who don’t like planes liking it and posting photos, yet now its on the ground those same people will likely show no interest in it.
Get back in your box, Robin You further mention about those who don’t like planes liking it and posting photos, yet now its on the ground those same people will likely show no interest in it.
It maybe doesn't have significant operational history, but everything it achieved in the last 10 years or so of its flying career can't be overlooked.
And no, you're right, people won't show an interest in it on the ground, but then they were never going to. That's why it makes more sense to be popped somewhere existing as a static exhibit. I'm sure one of them would have taken it on, even if they already had one. It's a famous aircraft, but VTTS obviously wanted to cash in on its status a bit more.
Tony1963 said:
If you could line up the surviving Vulcans on a dispersal at Scampton, which aircraft would have the longest queues for cockpit and bomb bay tours?
My guess would be the Black Buck tail numbers.
General population, ex crew or nerds? I fall between the first and last categories and I'd join the shortest queue as I'm fairly sure they'd all look about the same inside. That said if that happened to be an old variant I might then go in a new one after to see if I could see the difference. Would I aim for a particular plane? Not unless they were going to let me run the engines up or something.My guess would be the Black Buck tail numbers.
Tony1963 said:
If you could line up the surviving Vulcans on a dispersal at Scampton, which aircraft would have the longest queues for cockpit and bomb bay tours?
My guess would be the Black Buck tail numbers.
Agree with that.My guess would be the Black Buck tail numbers.
And I've been lucky to have actually done that at an airshow, at Abingdon in Sept 1982, when 607 was parked in the Falklands War static section, and they opened the cockpit for tours, and I got to sit in that famous left hand seat for 5 or so minutes.
Lucky I was walking past pretty much 8.30am before too many people had arrived so only had to queue for 5 or 10 mins.
By 10am the queue was enormous when I walked back past through the static. I think they posted an ATC cadet on the end soon after to prevent more people joining so they would have time to get through it all.
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