German WWII bombing raids - targets?
Discussion
TEKNOPUG said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I hadn't heard about the Dublin story Eric but there was certainly a tale that the bombing of Belfast was the result of the Brits 'bending' the beams away from Bristol.
That's seems to be somewhat unlikely to me. Belfast is a long way off course and distance from Bristol. Surely the navigators would still be monitoring their position even if they were using radio-beams to focus their attack? Unless they weren't actually told their target destination? Belfast would have been a legitimate industrial target for the Luftwaffe anyway?
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There were also a number of Starfish (SF - Special Fire) Decoy sites. While major airfields, cities and ports would be blacked out well in advance of incoming raids (thanks to radar), nearby decoy sites would be illuminated by fires or lights in the patterns of runways, streets and docks to decoy enemy bombers away from the real target.
Locally, here's a map of the locations of bombs dropped by a Zeppelin in 1916.
Locally, here's a map of the locations of bombs dropped by a Zeppelin in 1916.
TEKNOPUG said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I hadn't heard about the Dublin story Eric but there was certainly a tale that the bombing of Belfast was the result of the Brits 'bending' the beams away from Bristol.
That's seems to be somewhat unlikely to me. Belfast is a long way off course and distance from Bristol. Surely the navigators would still be monitoring their position even if they were using radio-beams to focus their attack? Unless they weren't actually told their target destination? Belfast would have been a legitimate industrial target for the Luftwaffe anyway?There had, however, been several earlier small raids which have historically been put down to a/c missing their primary targets.
I remember my Grandfather mentioning the Bristol/Belfast story and this was certainly also reported as such in 'Purnell's History of the Second World War' - the claim being that the second Knickerbein beam (the cross beam) was displaced way north which, with a variation in forecast winds, lead to a/c being way off track.
While I agree the story is unlikely, I wouldn't say it was impossible.
I wouldn't be surprised if Anti-British elements in Northern Ireland and Eire helped fuel the mythology of deliberate beam bending by the British.
Certainly, the Germans could have used a Beam Bending reason for bombing Dublin as anti-British propaganda but never did so - which indicates to me that the attack on Dublin had nothing to do with "Beam Bending" and everything to do with being a deliberate attack.
Certainly, the Germans could have used a Beam Bending reason for bombing Dublin as anti-British propaganda but never did so - which indicates to me that the attack on Dublin had nothing to do with "Beam Bending" and everything to do with being a deliberate attack.
The Germans launched a sustained bomdardment of Lowestoft with air launched V1's during 1944. The residents of Lowestoft only found out about this after the war when Luftwaffe records were examined. Every V1 except one had missed!
The reason Kent was hit by so many V1's was that the government fed false information as to the impact points to the Germans via agent ZigZag. He reported back that most were landing in the North and North West of London so the Luftwaffe kept shortening the range resulting in Kent taking the brunt.
The reason Kent was hit by so many V1's was that the government fed false information as to the impact points to the Germans via agent ZigZag. He reported back that most were landing in the North and North West of London so the Luftwaffe kept shortening the range resulting in Kent taking the brunt.
Simpo Two said:
I thought the beams were actually retransmitted via landlines?
Coventry was hit because although Jones guessed the beam's frequency, he got the modulation wrong so the re-transmissions were not heard by the bombers.
I always though Coventry got it because although it was known exactly when and where the raid was coming it was one of those take the hit to keep the secret situations. Coventry was hit because although Jones guessed the beam's frequency, he got the modulation wrong so the re-transmissions were not heard by the bombers.
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 13th September 18:42
The real b
d raids where the Baedeker raids deliberately targeting heritage and culturally significant places because they are significant just isn't cricket.Engineer1 said:
I always though Coventry got it because although it was known exactly when and where the raid was coming it was one of those take the hit to keep the secret situations.
See 'The Secret War' by Brian Johnson; much of it about Prof RV Jones. The whole 'beams' issue is described in excellent detail. Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Eric Mc said:
I agree, I think they really meant "disrupting" or "disabling" rather than bending.
However, because the word "bending" was used, some Irish people thought the Luftwaffe bombing of Dublin in 1941 was caused by the Brits deliberately bending the beam and deflecting the aiming point away from (say) Liverpool and onto Dublin.
That was nonsense of course, but some Irish firmly believe this to this day.
The system was called 'Knickerbein' (Dog Leg) and was a development of the earlier 'Lorenz' blind landing system which was in many respects the fore runner of the modern ILS.However, because the word "bending" was used, some Irish people thought the Luftwaffe bombing of Dublin in 1941 was caused by the Brits deliberately bending the beam and deflecting the aiming point away from (say) Liverpool and onto Dublin.
That was nonsense of course, but some Irish firmly believe this to this day.
Quintessentially the Lorenz 'Beam' consisted of two Morse type signals - dots to one side of the centreline, dashes to the other side, such that when the a/c was 'on' the beam a continuous signal (equi-signal) would be heard.
Knickerbein took this further by upping the output power of the transmissions (Lorenz only had a range of around 20 miles) and adding a second transmitter, well displaced in distance from the first, with its 'beam' set to intersect the first over the target. Thus you would 'fly the beam' until you received the second signal which was the indication to release the bombs.
In an early form of EW, Avro Ansons were used to locate the Knickerbein beams and, initially the British effort (codenamed 'Aspirin') was to broadcast low power 'dot' signals at random which would mean the Luftwaffe picked up multiple equi-signal areas with no way to ascertain positional accuracy without a 'visual fix'.
Later the British transmitters were synchronised with the German transmitters giving false 'equi-signal' readings to the receivers meaning they would stray further and further into the 'dash' part of the beam. Thus while the beam was not bent per se, reception of the beam was, and enemy a/c could be 'bent' off track.
I hadn't heard about the Dublin story Eric but there was certainly a tale that the bombing of Belfast was the result of the Brits 'bending' the beams away from Bristol.
At least for Sheffield, I know that warnings about the raid were very vague, since it was important the Germans remained unaware that we knew what was happening.
dr_gn said:
Knickerbein wasn't the main system, it was only used in the early raids. Sheffield, Birmingham and Coventry were targeted using a further development called "X-Gerät" which used three cross beams.
At least for Sheffield, I know that warnings about the raid were very vague, since it was important the Germans remained unaware that we knew what was happening.
To an extent that is true, while X-Gerät was in service by late 1940, being such a narrow (and accurate) 'Master Beam' it required the use of Knickerbein to lead a/c onto the beam. Receivers were also initially only fitted to KG100 a/c who acted as 'Pathfinders' (where available) for the main raid - not all raids had the luxury of KG100 support. At least for Sheffield, I know that warnings about the raid were very vague, since it was important the Germans remained unaware that we knew what was happening.
X-Gerät couldn't be 'bent' like Knickerbein (hence me concentrating on the latter given the thrust of this thread) but was initially defeated via jamming and later by setting up a false 3rd 'cross-beam'.
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