If Ireland had been on our side in WWII...
Discussion
In typical PH fashion, let's re-write history and see what would have happened...
In the Second World War it is fairly well-known that the Irish republic was neutral, preferring to sit on the sidelines and not to get involved in the desperate struggle against Nazi Germany.
Thus the 'goodies' were denied the use of Irish ports and harbours, airfields, resources, etc. RAF aircraft forced to land in Ireland were impounded and kept for the Irish air force.
So what would have nbeen the effect if Ireland HAD joined the side of right?
Possibly:
Battle of the Atlantic - we would have won much earlier as we could have used bases in Ireland. The Merchant Navy would not have suffered such huge losses and the Allies would have received many more resources (food, ammo, tanks, etc), which would have considerably shortened the war.
The USA would have entered the war much earlier under pressure from its Irish politicians.
D Day would have happened much earlier, possibly 1942.
The Holocaust wouldn't have swung into full-scale operation.
The re-invasion of Europe / invasion of Germany might have been bloodier as the Germans would have been attacked when not weakened by five years of war.
What else?
In the Second World War it is fairly well-known that the Irish republic was neutral, preferring to sit on the sidelines and not to get involved in the desperate struggle against Nazi Germany.
Thus the 'goodies' were denied the use of Irish ports and harbours, airfields, resources, etc. RAF aircraft forced to land in Ireland were impounded and kept for the Irish air force.
So what would have nbeen the effect if Ireland HAD joined the side of right?
Possibly:
Battle of the Atlantic - we would have won much earlier as we could have used bases in Ireland. The Merchant Navy would not have suffered such huge losses and the Allies would have received many more resources (food, ammo, tanks, etc), which would have considerably shortened the war.
The USA would have entered the war much earlier under pressure from its Irish politicians.
D Day would have happened much earlier, possibly 1942.
The Holocaust wouldn't have swung into full-scale operation.
The re-invasion of Europe / invasion of Germany might have been bloodier as the Germans would have been attacked when not weakened by five years of war.
What else?
Note - some Irishmen did join the British armed forces on an individual basis...this should not be forgotten
Only thing to bear in mind is that circa 1939, Ireland was just full of fields. 
My father was born in 1944 in Ireland; he likens it to a pre-industrialised nation. Coupled with their tiny tiny population, I think their help with anything other than foodstuffs would have been minimal.
MAM
P.S. Not sure the Irish themselves would have been too keen to help out the "Cromwellian baby murderers" either.
My father was born in 1944 in Ireland; he likens it to a pre-industrialised nation. Coupled with their tiny tiny population, I think their help with anything other than foodstuffs would have been minimal.
MAM
P.S. Not sure the Irish themselves would have been too keen to help out the "Cromwellian baby murderers" either.
Let's get the facts right.
Tne Republic did not come into existence until 1948. During the 1939-45 period, the 26 counties were know officuially as "Eire".
I would hazard a guess that far more Irishmen served with the Allies in WW2 vouluntarilly BECAUSE it was neutral than would have served if the Irish government had taken the country to war.
Ireland's main contribution to the war effort (apart from the prvoision of men to the Allies - which happened anyway) would have been the use of ports and airfields - but that would have meant the basing of "foreign" troops on Irish soil - which would have been unacceptable to a large porortion of the Irish considering it was only 18 years after independence (and only a few years since the Royal Navy ahd pulled out of the Treaty Ports).
Ironically, the Navy withdrew from the treaty ports for UK domestic reasons as much as for Irish reasons. This was one of the biggest mistakes made by the Baldwin government and would have greatly affected Ireland's involvement in the war if those ports ahd still been available to them.
Tne Republic did not come into existence until 1948. During the 1939-45 period, the 26 counties were know officuially as "Eire".
I would hazard a guess that far more Irishmen served with the Allies in WW2 vouluntarilly BECAUSE it was neutral than would have served if the Irish government had taken the country to war.
Ireland's main contribution to the war effort (apart from the prvoision of men to the Allies - which happened anyway) would have been the use of ports and airfields - but that would have meant the basing of "foreign" troops on Irish soil - which would have been unacceptable to a large porortion of the Irish considering it was only 18 years after independence (and only a few years since the Royal Navy ahd pulled out of the Treaty Ports).
Ironically, the Navy withdrew from the treaty ports for UK domestic reasons as much as for Irish reasons. This was one of the biggest mistakes made by the Baldwin government and would have greatly affected Ireland's involvement in the war if those ports ahd still been available to them.
Einion Yrth said:
Martial Arts Man said:
. Not sure the Irish themselves would have been too keen to help out the "Cromwellian baby murderers" either.
An estimated 90 odd thousand from both north and south volunteered to fight against the axis.My gut feeling is that the majority will have come from the North....I stand ready to be corrected though.
MAM
Martial Arts Man said:
Einion Yrth said:
Martial Arts Man said:
. Not sure the Irish themselves would have been too keen to help out the "Cromwellian baby murderers" either.
An estimated 90 odd thousand from both north and south volunteered to fight against the axis.My gut feeling is that the majority will have come from the North....I stand ready to be corrected though.
MAM
Eric Mc said:
Let's get the facts right.
Tne Republic did not come into existence until 1948. During the 1939-45 period, the 26 counties were know officuially as "Eire".
I would hazard a guess that far more Irishmen served with the Allies in WW2 vouluntarilly BECAUSE it was neutral than would have served if the Irish government had taken the country to war.
Ireland's main contribution to the war effort (apart from the prvoision of men to the Allies - which happened anyway) would have been the use of ports and airfields - but that would have meant the basing of "foreign" troops on Irish soil - which would have been unacceptable to a large porortion of the Irish considering it was only 18 years after independence (and only a few years since the Royal Navy ahd pulled out of the Treaty Ports).
Ironically, the Navy withdrew from the treaty ports for UK domestic reasons as much as for Irish reasons. This was one of the biggest mistakes made by the Baldwin government and would have greatly affected Ireland's involvement in the war if those ports ahd still been available to them.
Thanks for the info EMc; do you know how many airfields/ports we are talking about here?Tne Republic did not come into existence until 1948. During the 1939-45 period, the 26 counties were know officuially as "Eire".
I would hazard a guess that far more Irishmen served with the Allies in WW2 vouluntarilly BECAUSE it was neutral than would have served if the Irish government had taken the country to war.
Ireland's main contribution to the war effort (apart from the prvoision of men to the Allies - which happened anyway) would have been the use of ports and airfields - but that would have meant the basing of "foreign" troops on Irish soil - which would have been unacceptable to a large porortion of the Irish considering it was only 18 years after independence (and only a few years since the Royal Navy ahd pulled out of the Treaty Ports).
Ironically, the Navy withdrew from the treaty ports for UK domestic reasons as much as for Irish reasons. This was one of the biggest mistakes made by the Baldwin government and would have greatly affected Ireland's involvement in the war if those ports ahd still been available to them.
MAM
The Irish economy would have benefited hugely, food production in Ireland would have skyrocketed, reducing the (basically groundless) fear of being starved out in the UK. Much more friendly relations between the UK and Ireland after the war, possibly leading to resolving the differences in N.I. much sooner than happened in reality. etc etc.
Edited by s2art on Friday 30th January 13:39
There are no official figures. The MINIMUM estimated figure for volunteers from SOUTH of the border is 45,000. There were also over 100,000 Irishmen working as construction workers in Britain - mainly used on the building of airfields.
Another factor often overlooked was the role of Irish merchant seamen - hundreds of whom died. Although neutral, Irish shipping did supply foodstuffs and other material to the UK. Consequently, Irish ships were listed as "targets" by the U-Boats.
On at least one occasion, an Irish ship was sunk by the RAF - who mistook the tricolour for the Italian flag. The RAF apologised.
Another factor often overlooked was the role of Irish merchant seamen - hundreds of whom died. Although neutral, Irish shipping did supply foodstuffs and other material to the UK. Consequently, Irish ships were listed as "targets" by the U-Boats.
On at least one occasion, an Irish ship was sunk by the RAF - who mistook the tricolour for the Italian flag. The RAF apologised.
Einion Yrth said:
Martial Arts Man said:
Einion Yrth said:
Martial Arts Man said:
. Not sure the Irish themselves would have been too keen to help out the "Cromwellian baby murderers" either.
An estimated 90 odd thousand from both north and south volunteered to fight against the axis.My gut feeling is that the majority will have come from the North....I stand ready to be corrected though.
MAM
Could this unofficial contribution be the reason why the Uboat harbouring, alluded to in another post, was allowed?
MAM
Martial Arts Man said:
Eric Mc said:
Let's get the facts right.
Tne Republic did not come into existence until 1948. During the 1939-45 period, the 26 counties were know officuially as "Eire".
I would hazard a guess that far more Irishmen served with the Allies in WW2 vouluntarilly BECAUSE it was neutral than would have served if the Irish government had taken the country to war.
Ireland's main contribution to the war effort (apart from the prvoision of men to the Allies - which happened anyway) would have been the use of ports and airfields - but that would have meant the basing of "foreign" troops on Irish soil - which would have been unacceptable to a large porortion of the Irish considering it was only 18 years after independence (and only a few years since the Royal Navy ahd pulled out of the Treaty Ports).
Ironically, the Navy withdrew from the treaty ports for UK domestic reasons as much as for Irish reasons. This was one of the biggest mistakes made by the Baldwin government and would have greatly affected Ireland's involvement in the war if those ports ahd still been available to them.
Thanks for the info EMc; do you know how many airfields/ports we are talking about here?Tne Republic did not come into existence until 1948. During the 1939-45 period, the 26 counties were know officuially as "Eire".
I would hazard a guess that far more Irishmen served with the Allies in WW2 vouluntarilly BECAUSE it was neutral than would have served if the Irish government had taken the country to war.
Ireland's main contribution to the war effort (apart from the prvoision of men to the Allies - which happened anyway) would have been the use of ports and airfields - but that would have meant the basing of "foreign" troops on Irish soil - which would have been unacceptable to a large porortion of the Irish considering it was only 18 years after independence (and only a few years since the Royal Navy ahd pulled out of the Treaty Ports).
Ironically, the Navy withdrew from the treaty ports for UK domestic reasons as much as for Irish reasons. This was one of the biggest mistakes made by the Baldwin government and would have greatly affected Ireland's involvement in the war if those ports ahd still been available to them.
MAM
The main port was the Navy bases at Yaughal and Cobh (formerly Queenstown), Co. Cork.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/374962...
In true PH fashion lets all just ignore the truth......
In true PH fashion lets all just ignore the truth......
Martial Arts Man said:
Einion Yrth said:
Martial Arts Man said:
Einion Yrth said:
Martial Arts Man said:
. Not sure the Irish themselves would have been too keen to help out the "Cromwellian baby murderers" either.
An estimated 90 odd thousand from both north and south volunteered to fight against the axis.My gut feeling is that the majority will have come from the North....I stand ready to be corrected though.
MAM
Could this unofficial contribution be the reason why the Uboat harbouring, alluded to in another post, was allowed?
MAM
The airforce (the Irish Air Corps) was also tiny and for the first half of the war was using obsolete biplanes (Gloster Galdiators).
During the war. the British SOLD some Hurricanes to the Irish.
Well. Where to start with this one?
I suppose it's right to start with the part of Ireland that was fully involved in WW2. Northern Ireland. You know, the bit of Ireland that's up top there.
Allied aircraft may have been interned, but Allied aircrew were quietly slipped back to the UK in civvies via Belfast. Axis aircrew spent the duration interned.
Don't forget the Donegal Air Corridor, where beligerent Allied aircraft were permitted to fly unhindered over Free State territory. Flying Boats stationed on Lough Erne found it useful. Have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donegal_Corridor
Don't forget that the Free State had less that 20 years earlier undergone a War Of Independence and a Civil War. Not to mention having the center of Dublin levelled in 1916. Is it any wonder they wanted to sit out the latest war, if only to assert their own independance?
Finall, it's a bit over the top to blame the Irish for all the bad things listed in the OP, just cos they weren't involved.
I suppose it's right to start with the part of Ireland that was fully involved in WW2. Northern Ireland. You know, the bit of Ireland that's up top there.
Allied aircraft may have been interned, but Allied aircrew were quietly slipped back to the UK in civvies via Belfast. Axis aircrew spent the duration interned.
Don't forget the Donegal Air Corridor, where beligerent Allied aircraft were permitted to fly unhindered over Free State territory. Flying Boats stationed on Lough Erne found it useful. Have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donegal_Corridor
Don't forget that the Free State had less that 20 years earlier undergone a War Of Independence and a Civil War. Not to mention having the center of Dublin levelled in 1916. Is it any wonder they wanted to sit out the latest war, if only to assert their own independance?
Finall, it's a bit over the top to blame the Irish for all the bad things listed in the OP, just cos they weren't involved.
Swilly said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/374962...
In true PH fashion lets all just ignore the truth......
A good article and certainly chimes with my understanding of the situation.In true PH fashion lets all just ignore the truth......
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