Army Helicopters and the BBC reporting, a question...
Discussion
Quick question which has stumped me today.
On the BBC news today during the story on the Army's helicopter situation the reporter voice over said; "of course, its not possible to just buy new helicopters". Now, is this because say they have to be configured for different theaters/conditions/uses?
Just a little confused, is it really not possible to buy a squadron of already battle tested off the shelf helicopters, surely that's what military dictatorships have been doing for decades?
On the BBC news today during the story on the Army's helicopter situation the reporter voice over said; "of course, its not possible to just buy new helicopters". Now, is this because say they have to be configured for different theaters/conditions/uses?
Just a little confused, is it really not possible to buy a squadron of already battle tested off the shelf helicopters, surely that's what military dictatorships have been doing for decades?
Need to train extra aircrew and ground crew to actually use them. If it's a brand new type (e.g. if we were to buy a load of Blackhawks) you need all the spares and ground equipment to operate them, with all the logistical headaches that brings. You'll also need to develop new procedures for these helicopters and possibly modify it to work with existing procedures (e.g. fitting British radios or British weapons).
So it's not as easy as some commentators suggest.
So it's not as easy as some commentators suggest.
Buying US inventory is easy enough, they have it in spades. The issue is, as pointed out, the logistics of operating them, re. pilots/parts/engineering and servicing...
Sadly, the US don't always share their latest avionics packages, so as to stay 'ahead of the game'. Also, the UK like to prove (expensive) points by manufacturing things themselves. Good in theory, but at substantial financial and political cost.
Sadly, the US don't always share their latest avionics packages, so as to stay 'ahead of the game'. Also, the UK like to prove (expensive) points by manufacturing things themselves. Good in theory, but at substantial financial and political cost.
eccles said:
Aircraft are still pretty much hand built, so even if you ordered them tomorrow it would take quite a while to get them delivered.
The report didn't seem to stress time as a factor, but literally that it isn't as simple as ordering a squadron, my presumption was that helicopters being such tricky machines it takes time to get them suited for whichever battlefield you want them for. Of course, I'd neglected to think of the infrastructure to run such complicated machinesThanks for the replies, so is the technical back up and maintenance requirement worse or equivalent to a fighter plane? Is it quicker to get a fighter squadron into active service than a chopper one?
We don't need to, no, but let's face it, the recent UK-manufactured procurements haven't exactly gone smoothly, or in a timely manner. At least they seemed to have learnt with regards to the F-35. Order what the Yanks make, economies of scale plunge the cost, and leave them to worry about the rest, as they will pour money in to ensure a project runs on time/spec.
Hense why so many other nations buy off the shelf US products... It works..
Hense why so many other nations buy off the shelf US products... It works..
Emergemcy supply of off the shelf equipment CAN be done and HAS been done. In the 1950s, the RAF operated a number of Boeing B-29s pending the delivery of Canberras.
In 1985, the RAF acquired some ex-US Navy Phantoms to act as stand ins pending delivery of the Tornado F2/F3.
As a stop gap, I would think that some US surplis Bell UH-1s would do the trick as basic troop carriers. Modifications would not need to be extensive and, if done with a sense or urgency, they could be in service within months.
Political will is the prime mover in these cases - not technology.
In 1985, the RAF acquired some ex-US Navy Phantoms to act as stand ins pending delivery of the Tornado F2/F3.
As a stop gap, I would think that some US surplis Bell UH-1s would do the trick as basic troop carriers. Modifications would not need to be extensive and, if done with a sense or urgency, they could be in service within months.
Political will is the prime mover in these cases - not technology.
Papoo said:
We don't need to, no, but let's face it, the recent UK-manufactured procurements haven't exactly gone smoothly, or in a timely manner. At least they seemed to have learnt with regards to the F-35. Order what the Yanks make, economies of scale plunge the cost, and leave them to worry about the rest, as they will pour money in to ensure a project runs on time/spec.
Hense why so many other nations buy off the shelf US products... It works..
And leaves you vulnerable to the vageries of US policy, The "Suez Crisis" for example.Hense why so many other nations buy off the shelf US products... It works..
Time scale is the main problem. There was a move to obtain some more upgraded Puma's. The fact that they would be built/refurbished in Hungary(or Bulgaria) didn't go down well. Delivery would be an issue as well
Merlin could do this job well but again delivery times would be a problem. The NOD normally gets around this by "buying" another countries allocation so their Helicopters get delivered later. Nobody is buying much at this time though as the "Danish" allocation has already been used.
It's an old story with regard to the MOD. Buy a new aircraft and buy less of them as the Bean counters "think" the new capability will mean that they need fewer of them. Mission's tend to be in different places though so you cannot allocate the resources effectively without numbers.
From Iain Dales Diary - http://iaindale.blogspot.com/
"There has been a lot of hot air this week about helicopters and the armed forces. I have received an email from an authoritative source who outlines the current position. I thought you might be interested in its contents. The author has given me permission to use his name, but I am not going to in case he suffers any consequences. He served in the RAF for ten years and was involved intimately in the Chinook reversion programme.
Hi Iain
Having listened over the last couple of days to the arguments that have been taking place in the commons I thought I would bring some things that you may or may not know to your attention in relation to the state of the rotary lift capacity of the MoD.
The eight Chinook Mk3 special forces helicopters purchased in 1996 will potentially cost £363 Million when (if) they become operational. The Prime Minister, Secretary of State for Defence and the PUS for Defence Procurement stated that some of these helicopters will be available at the end of the year. ZH*** has just entered the beginning of flight trials. Aircraft 2-8 are in various states of reversion and aircraft 8 has been cannibalised to such an extent that it is very unlikely that it will ever become operational. The likelihood of any of these aircraft being ready and available for operations this year is very slim. The aircrews have to be trained and flight certified, the ground crews have to be trained and certified. The aircraft has to be released as fit to fly and has to be retrofitted with the required DAS equipment that is still in trial at ******* **** to get it to theatre entry standard.
The UAE offered to buy the aircraft off the MoD.
You can buy a CH-47D which is the US standard Chinook or what we call the Mk2a for £20 Million.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 29 Chinook helicopters at its disposal for the front line (Source MoD Defence Statistics 2008). Assume that a third of the fleet are at various states of, minor, major and primary star (categories of maintenance) so are unavailable for operations.
Assume that a third of the fleet is being used for continuation training, OCU and trials. That leaves roughly 10 aircraft that can be deployed. 10 Chinook helicopters are currently deployed on Op Herrick. Assume that a third of the deployed fleet are grounded due to maintenance etc
Therefore the UK Chinook force in Afghanistan is roughly 6 helicopters that can be provided by flight operations for duty.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 23 Puma helicopters at its disposal for the front line (Source MoD Defence Statistics 2008). The Puma is non deployable to Afghanistan. It does not have the required power to operate within the flight envelope required by the user.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 6 Lynx AH7, 59 Lynx AH7/9 and 42 Gazelle helicopters at its deposal for the front line (Source MoD Defence Statistics 2008). The Lynx and Gazelle helicopters are non deployable to Afghanistan. They do not have the required power to operate within the flight envelope required by the user.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 15 Merlin Mk3 (22 initial purchase) at its disposal for the front line. Assume that a third of the fleet are at various states of, minor, major and primary star (categories of maintenance) so are unavailable for operations. Assume that a third of the fleet are is being used for continuation training, OCU and trials. That leaves roughly 4/5 aircraft that can be deployed.
4 Merlin helicopters are currently deployed to Iraq. Assume that a third of the deployed fleet are grounded due to maintenance etc. Therefore the UK Merlin force in Iraq is roughly 3 helicopters that can be provided by flight operations for duty.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 3 Merlin Mk3a (6 purchased from Denmark). These aircraft were promised in 2008. Here we are in 2009 and still no deployable airframes.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 26 Sea King Mk4 at its disposal for the front line.
Assume that a third of the fleet are at various states of, minor, major and primary star (categories of maintenance) so are unavailable for operations. Assume that a third of the fleet is being used for continuation training, OCU and trials. That leaves roughly 8 helicopters that can be deployed.
CHF splits its time between supporting Op Herrick and supporting 3 Cdo Bde RM deployed at sea. They can only operate in Afghanistan with Carson Blades.
The MoD is spending £70 Million on re-engining (8) Lynx AH9 helicopters with uprated engines. These aircraft are delayed.
The MoD bought the Bell 412 (Huey) to be used in hot and high climates like, Cyprus, Belize and Brunei. These aircraft can be bought for £2 Million. The US Army is modernising Jordanian Huey aircraft for £2 Million with modern avionics, armour etc for the Iraqi air force.
The NH90 is available for £14 Million (Internet source) and shares the same engine as the Merlin. For £70 Million you could buy 5 NH90 and these aircraft come with the added bonus that they can be built at Westland.
The Puma fleet has had its day. They are short of Puma qualified pilots (11 short) and the aircraft is becoming more expensive to maintain. The MoD is short of rotary pilots. A pilot takes roughly 3 years to become combat ready. However OCU conversion to another type can take as little as 6 months.
The Lynx AH7/9 fleet is reaching the end of its operational usefulness. OCU conversion to another type can take as little as 6 months.
All military rotary pilots that use Chinook, Merlin, Sea King and Puma do their multi engine rotary training on the Bell 412 therefore they are type certified to fly it.
All Lynx AH7/9 pilots are introduced to the Bell 412 so are aware of it.
So there you have it. Defence of the Realm blog has been superb in covering this subject and showing what is happening at the sharp end. The Prime Minister's conduct has been shocking. At the Liason Committee hearing he ducked and dived, but in the end it is down to him that our armed forces have one helicopter to 400 troups, while the Americans have one for every 33. They cling to this 60% figure like a limpet, hoping that people won't know that the number of Chinooks he we have is actually only 10."
"There has been a lot of hot air this week about helicopters and the armed forces. I have received an email from an authoritative source who outlines the current position. I thought you might be interested in its contents. The author has given me permission to use his name, but I am not going to in case he suffers any consequences. He served in the RAF for ten years and was involved intimately in the Chinook reversion programme.
Hi Iain
Having listened over the last couple of days to the arguments that have been taking place in the commons I thought I would bring some things that you may or may not know to your attention in relation to the state of the rotary lift capacity of the MoD.
The eight Chinook Mk3 special forces helicopters purchased in 1996 will potentially cost £363 Million when (if) they become operational. The Prime Minister, Secretary of State for Defence and the PUS for Defence Procurement stated that some of these helicopters will be available at the end of the year. ZH*** has just entered the beginning of flight trials. Aircraft 2-8 are in various states of reversion and aircraft 8 has been cannibalised to such an extent that it is very unlikely that it will ever become operational. The likelihood of any of these aircraft being ready and available for operations this year is very slim. The aircrews have to be trained and flight certified, the ground crews have to be trained and certified. The aircraft has to be released as fit to fly and has to be retrofitted with the required DAS equipment that is still in trial at ******* **** to get it to theatre entry standard.
The UAE offered to buy the aircraft off the MoD.
You can buy a CH-47D which is the US standard Chinook or what we call the Mk2a for £20 Million.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 29 Chinook helicopters at its disposal for the front line (Source MoD Defence Statistics 2008). Assume that a third of the fleet are at various states of, minor, major and primary star (categories of maintenance) so are unavailable for operations.
Assume that a third of the fleet is being used for continuation training, OCU and trials. That leaves roughly 10 aircraft that can be deployed. 10 Chinook helicopters are currently deployed on Op Herrick. Assume that a third of the deployed fleet are grounded due to maintenance etc
Therefore the UK Chinook force in Afghanistan is roughly 6 helicopters that can be provided by flight operations for duty.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 23 Puma helicopters at its disposal for the front line (Source MoD Defence Statistics 2008). The Puma is non deployable to Afghanistan. It does not have the required power to operate within the flight envelope required by the user.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 6 Lynx AH7, 59 Lynx AH7/9 and 42 Gazelle helicopters at its deposal for the front line (Source MoD Defence Statistics 2008). The Lynx and Gazelle helicopters are non deployable to Afghanistan. They do not have the required power to operate within the flight envelope required by the user.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 15 Merlin Mk3 (22 initial purchase) at its disposal for the front line. Assume that a third of the fleet are at various states of, minor, major and primary star (categories of maintenance) so are unavailable for operations. Assume that a third of the fleet are is being used for continuation training, OCU and trials. That leaves roughly 4/5 aircraft that can be deployed.
4 Merlin helicopters are currently deployed to Iraq. Assume that a third of the deployed fleet are grounded due to maintenance etc. Therefore the UK Merlin force in Iraq is roughly 3 helicopters that can be provided by flight operations for duty.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 3 Merlin Mk3a (6 purchased from Denmark). These aircraft were promised in 2008. Here we are in 2009 and still no deployable airframes.
JHC current order of battle states that it has 26 Sea King Mk4 at its disposal for the front line.
Assume that a third of the fleet are at various states of, minor, major and primary star (categories of maintenance) so are unavailable for operations. Assume that a third of the fleet is being used for continuation training, OCU and trials. That leaves roughly 8 helicopters that can be deployed.
CHF splits its time between supporting Op Herrick and supporting 3 Cdo Bde RM deployed at sea. They can only operate in Afghanistan with Carson Blades.
The MoD is spending £70 Million on re-engining (8) Lynx AH9 helicopters with uprated engines. These aircraft are delayed.
The MoD bought the Bell 412 (Huey) to be used in hot and high climates like, Cyprus, Belize and Brunei. These aircraft can be bought for £2 Million. The US Army is modernising Jordanian Huey aircraft for £2 Million with modern avionics, armour etc for the Iraqi air force.
The NH90 is available for £14 Million (Internet source) and shares the same engine as the Merlin. For £70 Million you could buy 5 NH90 and these aircraft come with the added bonus that they can be built at Westland.
The Puma fleet has had its day. They are short of Puma qualified pilots (11 short) and the aircraft is becoming more expensive to maintain. The MoD is short of rotary pilots. A pilot takes roughly 3 years to become combat ready. However OCU conversion to another type can take as little as 6 months.
The Lynx AH7/9 fleet is reaching the end of its operational usefulness. OCU conversion to another type can take as little as 6 months.
All military rotary pilots that use Chinook, Merlin, Sea King and Puma do their multi engine rotary training on the Bell 412 therefore they are type certified to fly it.
All Lynx AH7/9 pilots are introduced to the Bell 412 so are aware of it.
So there you have it. Defence of the Realm blog has been superb in covering this subject and showing what is happening at the sharp end. The Prime Minister's conduct has been shocking. At the Liason Committee hearing he ducked and dived, but in the end it is down to him that our armed forces have one helicopter to 400 troups, while the Americans have one for every 33. They cling to this 60% figure like a limpet, hoping that people won't know that the number of Chinooks he we have is actually only 10."
Durruti said:
From Iain Dales Diary - http://iaindale.blogspot.com/
....All military rotary pilots that use Chinook, Merlin, Sea King and Puma do their multi engine rotary training on the Bell 412 therefore they are type certified to fly it.
All Lynx AH7/9 pilots are introduced to the Bell 412 so are aware of it...
"
Not totally correct. RN pilots go from flying the Squirrel (single engine) to operational conversion on the aircraft they will fly (Sea King, Merlin, Lynx). ....All military rotary pilots that use Chinook, Merlin, Sea King and Puma do their multi engine rotary training on the Bell 412 therefore they are type certified to fly it.
All Lynx AH7/9 pilots are introduced to the Bell 412 so are aware of it...
"
The article is a bit of a non-story though - we know defence procurement is crap in the UK - they still haven't reached a firm decision on a Sea King Mk4 (troop lift) replacement, which should have been decided about a decade ago. The Future Lynx (AW159) programme is a farce, as it is still too small to carry a section of troops (one of the basic requirements the Army wanted for the Lynx replacement). The NH90 is the preferred choice of medium helicopter for most European nations, and would be an ideal Puma/Sea King/possibly Lynx replacement - Wastelands Helicopters (not British anymore, now Italian) could even licence produce them to support 'British Industry'. Unfortunately, because the MOD have been fannying about for so long we now find ourselves with a shortage of helicopters fit for purpose and, even if a decent plan was set in force tomorrow, it will still take at least 5 years to resolve the situation.
FourWheelDrift said:
We don't need to rely directly on the US for helicopters, Agusta Westland can provide anything we need, from light helicopters to gunships (Westland WAH-64 Apache) medium lift (Merlin/EH101) and heavy lift (Chinook ICH-47F, built under licence).
Oh my, not really. Large volume production runs with realistic delivery dates and budgets? Good luck with that one..... Compared to Bell/Boeing, Eurocopter and even Westland's parent company Agusta, Westlands is a cottage industry by comparison. I'd like to be proved wrong, but I don't think they'd have the capacity to produce anything else in volume in addition to the current Merlin and Lynx Wildcat orders.
Edited by Taffer on Sunday 19th July 03:04
What an absolute f
kIN farce this country is......how the hell did we ever take on the might of hitlers finest? or travel 8,000 miles to repel Argentine invaders?
We're fast becoming an International joke, having to bum equipment from whoever & wherever it can be found: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200620/No...
The whole military shortages affair is a discrace & I'm embarrased to admit to being be 'British' - my grandfather must be turning in his grave.
kIN farce this country is......how the hell did we ever take on the might of hitlers finest? or travel 8,000 miles to repel Argentine invaders?We're fast becoming an International joke, having to bum equipment from whoever & wherever it can be found: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200620/No...
The whole military shortages affair is a discrace & I'm embarrased to admit to being be 'British' - my grandfather must be turning in his grave.
It's our fault.
We (as a nation) have paid scant regard to the defence needs of the country and consequently, politicians have taken their brief from that - assumimg (rightly) that no one's political career has been furthered by making a song and dance about defence spending - or lack thereof.
The last time the nation really prioritised defence expenditure and modernising the armed forces was in the 1930s - and even then we almost left it too late.
We (as a nation) have paid scant regard to the defence needs of the country and consequently, politicians have taken their brief from that - assumimg (rightly) that no one's political career has been furthered by making a song and dance about defence spending - or lack thereof.
The last time the nation really prioritised defence expenditure and modernising the armed forces was in the 1930s - and even then we almost left it too late.
Eric Mc said:
It's our fault.
We (as a nation) have paid scant regard to the defence needs of the country and consequently, politicians have taken their brief from that - assumimg (rightly) that no one's political career has been furthered by making a song and dance about defence spending - or lack thereof.
The last time the nation really prioritised defence expenditure and modernising the armed forces was in the 1930s - and even then we almost left it too late.
Sorry Eric but I do not buy that. I think the Gov will make whatever decision it wants regardless of the populations wishes. And the Gov will think the publics wishes are represented by the press.We (as a nation) have paid scant regard to the defence needs of the country and consequently, politicians have taken their brief from that - assumimg (rightly) that no one's political career has been furthered by making a song and dance about defence spending - or lack thereof.
The last time the nation really prioritised defence expenditure and modernising the armed forces was in the 1930s - and even then we almost left it too late.
So in effect you have
Population:Wants swimming pool
Press:Reports dangers with swimming
Gov:Closes swimming pools due to "dangers" reported in press, and to save cash
Bish bash bosh the gov thinks it's responding to the public. The w
kersEric Mc said:
It's our fault.
We (as a nation) have paid scant regard to the defence needs of the country and consequently, politicians have taken their brief from that - assumimg (rightly) that no one's political career has been furthered by making a song and dance about defence spending - or lack thereof.
The last time the nation really prioritised defence expenditure and modernising the armed forces was in the 1930s - and even then we almost left it too late.
I'm not refering to defence expenditure during (relative) peacetime, I'm talking about the deployment of equipment after commiting to a particular theatre.We (as a nation) have paid scant regard to the defence needs of the country and consequently, politicians have taken their brief from that - assumimg (rightly) that no one's political career has been furthered by making a song and dance about defence spending - or lack thereof.
The last time the nation really prioritised defence expenditure and modernising the armed forces was in the 1930s - and even then we almost left it too late.
WW2 saw a massive increase in the manufacture of ordinance & military equipment/ships/aircraft with iron even coming from garden gates & beds.......Politicians are so hung up on costs (having finally paid off the Americans after WW2), they are now argueing the toss over Helicopter deployment in Afghanistan, something that's so obviously needed & staring them in the face!
Munter said:
Eric Mc said:
It's our fault.
We (as a nation) have paid scant regard to the defence needs of the country and consequently, politicians have taken their brief from that - assumimg (rightly) that no one's political career has been furthered by making a song and dance about defence spending - or lack thereof.
The last time the nation really prioritised defence expenditure and modernising the armed forces was in the 1930s - and even then we almost left it too late.
Sorry Eric but I do not buy that. I think the Gov will make whatever decision it wants regardless of the populations wishes. And the Gov will think the publics wishes are represented by the press.We (as a nation) have paid scant regard to the defence needs of the country and consequently, politicians have taken their brief from that - assumimg (rightly) that no one's political career has been furthered by making a song and dance about defence spending - or lack thereof.
The last time the nation really prioritised defence expenditure and modernising the armed forces was in the 1930s - and even then we almost left it too late.
So in effect you have
Population:Wants swimming pool
Press:Reports dangers with swimming
Gov:Closes swimming pools due to "dangers" reported in press, and to save cash
Bish bash bosh the gov thinks it's responding to the public. The w
kersPoliticians are extremely sensitive to the way public opinion blows. They very rarely want to be SEEN to be going against it - no matter what they truly want to do and no matter what their basic political philosophy may be.
Underlying all this is the dominance of the Treasury in deciding who gets the taxpayer's money - which was a situation instigated by Mrs Thatcher fairly soon after she became PM in 1979 and has got worse and worse in the intervening years.
Maybe we are seeing a spark of reawakening of public support for the armed services and FINALLY politicians will react to this and give the forces the equipment and manpower they need to fulfill the tasks allocated to them by their militarilly ignorant masters.
Stickers said:
What an absolute fkIN farce this country is......how the hell did we ever take on the might of hitlers finest? or travel 8,000 miles to repel Argentine invaders?
We're fast becoming an International joke, having to bum equipment from whoever & wherever it can be found: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200620/No...
The whole military shortages affair is a discrace & I'm embarrased to admit to being be 'British' - my grandfather must be turning in his grave.
I rekon that photo they used in the daily wail article must be at least 5 years old, if not older! Snoopy hasn't been there for years.kIN farce this country is......how the hell did we ever take on the might of hitlers finest? or travel 8,000 miles to repel Argentine invaders?We're fast becoming an International joke, having to bum equipment from whoever & wherever it can be found: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200620/No...
The whole military shortages affair is a discrace & I'm embarrased to admit to being be 'British' - my grandfather must be turning in his grave.
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