Random harrier question

[shouldbworking]

Saw this over in biker banter and was surprised by the refuelling boom - why were they fitted - did they have harriers using buddy stores or was it for operations where we had land based air cover (in which case why not use one of the more capable land based aircraft for the job!)

[phumy]

I doubt very much if that is real, looking at where it is attached to the aircraft....

[dr_gn]

phumy said:

I doubt very much if that is real, looking at where it is attached to the aircraft....

Why would it not be real? Looks like a Harrier FA2 to me.

OP: Why would a Harrier specifically *not* need the capability of air to air refueling?

[tank slapper]

That is where the refueling probe was located on Sea Harrier FA2s, as can be seen in this picture:

[shouldbworking]

dr_gn said:

phumy said:

I doubt very much if that is real, looking at where it is attached to the aircraft....

Why would it not be real? Looks like a Harrier FA2 to me.

OP: Why would a Harrier specifically *not* need the capability of air to air refueling?

Well it just seems like an odd decision - I mean harrier introduction is in the era of 'through-deck cruisers' and cost cutting, the fleet not even having a aew solution, much less air to air refuelling so why spend the money to add a capability with no apparent purpose?

[spitfire-ian]

Looks like the RAF ones pop out much like the ones on a Tornado

[dr_gn]

shouldbworking said:

dr_gn said:

phumy said:

I doubt very much if that is real, looking at where it is attached to the aircraft....

Why would it not be real? Looks like a Harrier FA2 to me.

OP: Why would a Harrier specifically *not* need the capability of air to air refueling?

Well it just seems like an odd decision - I mean harrier introduction is in the era of 'through-deck cruisers' and cost cutting, the fleet not even having a aew solution, much less air to air refuelling so why spend the money to add a capability with no apparent purpose?

Because it extends the versatility of the aircraft for a reasonable cost.

[andy97]

There was purpose & it was to allow long range ferry and operational flights. Both shore assets & the tankers from other nations (eg US Navy) were used to refuel when required. It was a bolt on probe, not retractable like some, but it could be used in combat, although I think that there were handling (g) restrictions IIRC.

Harriers were not used buddy - buddy.

It might have been a Falklands development, I can't remember now, but some additional SHARs & GR3 flew about 8-9 hour stretches to get to Hermes & it couldn't have been done without AAR. (incidently for the RAF GR3 pilots that was their first ever deck landing at sea!

Edited by andy97 on Thursday 13th August 16:09

[Eric Mc]

The early Harrier variants did not have a retractable refueling probe. The refuelling probe shown is a temporary fixed affair which was fitted specially for longer range ferry missions. The early Harriers were designated as follows:

RAF - Harrier GR1 (later upgraded to GR3)
US Marines - AV-8A
RN/Indian Navy - Sea Harrier FRS1 (RN versions later upgraded to FA2)

The second generation Harriers (which are fitted with a retractable probe) are designated as follows:

RAF - Harier GR5/GR7/GR9
US Marines/Spanish Navy/Italian Navy - AV-8B

The fixed ferry probe was not a Falklands devleopment. It was part of the basic Harrier design dating from 1966.
I remember building the plastic 1/72 Matchbox Harier GR1 kit around 1974 and fitting the probe because it looked a bit different.

Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 13th August 16:38

[Papoo]

Eric Mc said:

The early Harrier variants did not have a retractable refueling probe. The refuelling probe shown is a temporary fixed affair which was fitted specially for longer range ferry missions. The early Harriers were designated as follows:

RAF - Harrier GR1 (later upgraded to GR3)
US Marines - AV-8A
RN/Indian Navy - Sea Harrier FRS1 (RN versions later upgraded to FA2)

The second generation Harriers (which are fitted with a retractable probe) are designated as follows:

RAF - Harier GR5/GR7/GR9
US Marines/Spanish Navy/Italian Navy - AV-8B

The fixed ferry probe was not a Falklands devleopment. It was part of the basic Harrier design dating from 1966.
I remember building the plastic 1/72 Matchbox Harier GR1 kit around 1974 and fitting the probe because it looked a bit different.

Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 13th August 16:38

Absolutely that. It's early design was bolt-on, non reractable. Since the RN FA2s are just upgrades on the FRS1 aircraft (mainly avionics), it didn't change.

They have always been vital, given that the main designation of the Sea Harrier was to fly race-rack pattern air patrol for hours on end.

Now, I wonder... from an aerodynamic standpoint, is the fixed boom better or worse than the retractable one, with regards to laminar airflow over the airframe. I'm sure the retracted one produces less drag, but maybe having the boom housing disrupting the all important laminar flow over the aircraft makes it less stable than the airframe with the boom safely out of the laminar zone..

Or, perhaps in an aircraft as inherantly unstable as a Harrier, it really doesn't make the blindest bit of difference!

[Shar2]

When I was at sea with 800sqn Invincible we regularly fitted booms to extend the cap cover during exercises with the American carriers. They would refuel from buddy Intruders. This meant that the FRS1's could give a better account of themselves when pitted against the red forces. Booms were also fitted for ferry flights in conjuction with 330 gallon hindenburg drop tanks, but due to the size of these tanks the flaps deflection was restricted and therefore could only be use from shore stations. We used to ferry Shars to Decimomanu,(sp?) in Sardinia for dissimilar aircraft combat over the ranges there.