Yacht helm imbalance - suggestions anyone?
Discussion
Strangely getting lots of weather helm on port tack and none or occasionally lee helm on starboard in steady wind conditions - and as you'd expect the boat is performing much better on port tack too. There's nothing amiss with the rigging as far as I can see - the mast is vertical relative to the cabin roof, all the shrouds are evenly tensioned and the hull weight distribution is even. Even using the mainsheet traveller to it's full extent is not enough to offset the difference between helm balance and feel on port and starboard.
It's a 20 foot bilge keel boat with brand new sails that set nicely on both tacks - and it's happened often enough to rule out the effect of different wave pattens you somtimes experience on different tacks. Anybody got any suggestions?
It's a 20 foot bilge keel boat with brand new sails that set nicely on both tacks - and it's happened often enough to rule out the effect of different wave pattens you somtimes experience on different tacks. Anybody got any suggestions?
Jaguar steve said:
Strangely getting lots of weather helm on port tack and none or occasionally lee helm on starboard in steady wind conditions - and as you'd expect the boat is performing much better on port tack too. There's nothing amiss with the rigging as far as I can see - the mast is vertical relative to the cabin roof, all the shrouds are evenly tensioned and the hull weight distribution is even. Even using the mainsheet traveller to it's full extent is not enough to offset the difference between helm balance and feel on port and starboard.
It's a 20 foot bilge keel boat with brand new sails that set nicely on both tacks - and it's happened often enough to rule out the effect of different wave pattens you somtimes experience on different tacks. Anybody got any suggestions?
Hmm, weather helm is usually because of an imbalance between the centre of effort and the centre of lateral resistance from the keel, though normally this would similar on both tacks.It's a 20 foot bilge keel boat with brand new sails that set nicely on both tacks - and it's happened often enough to rule out the effect of different wave pattens you somtimes experience on different tacks. Anybody got any suggestions?
Check that the mast rake is the same on each tack, it does sound as if something is to cock, but it seems you've checked most things that I'd automatically suggest.
Is it fractional or masthead? Does the forestay look slacker on one tack than another? Do the shrouds go slack on one tack or both or not at all, is the bend in the mast (if there is one) uniform? Twin rudders or single rudders, transome hung or through hull and balanced? What boat is it?
Is it fractional or masthead? Does the forestay look slacker on one tack than another? Do the shrouds go slack on one tack or both or not at all, is the bend in the mast (if there is one) uniform? Twin rudders or single rudders, transome hung or through hull and balanced? What boat is it?
Assuming you are trimming the main the same on each tack, simply put, your rig isn't straight.
Just to be clear, the main sheet isn't stuck up the track on one tack & is all the way down on the other? If it is, this will give the symptoms you describe.
Assuming it's not the main & the rig is out of line, to put it back straight, do the following:
1: Slacken off all shrouds, caps, forestay & backstay
2: Ideally, take the boom off the gooseneck if you can
3: Make sure the mast is upright in its footing
4: Tighten the shrouds by exactly the same amount of turns on each side until there is only about 2" 3" deflection when you pull against them
5: Take the slack out of the forestay and backstay.
This will give you very, very neutral rig, which will feel lifeless whilst sailing, but is the only place to start from.
Take the boat out in about 15 kts of breeze & sail to windward on stbd tack. Have a look at the rig from the centre of the stern and find where it is deflecting. If it is deflecting at the top, tighten the D2's (cap shrouds) a few turns (always remember how many turns!!). If it is deflecting below the spreaders, tighten the D1's by a few turns.
Do the same now on port tack.
Your rig is now set straight, but you still son't be getting much weather helm & you need about 10 degrees or so. There are two ways (actually, it is a combination of both for the pedants!), but the simplest to do whilst you are out tuning is to put more pre-bend in the rig.
Ease the forestay by a few turns and take these turns up on both the backstay and the cap shrouds. You may well need to put many more turns on the backstay than you have taken off the forestay, so don't be afraid of this! Obviously, the backstay is pulling the top of the mast closer to the deck, so the caps will go slack. Take the slack up on these & then repeat the sailing to windward bit to check whether the top is deflecting. If so, tighten the caps (remember to count the number of turns to duplicate on the other tack). If this still doesn't give you sufficient weather helm, let some more forestay off & repeat. For completeness, the other way is to put more rake into the mast, but this involves moving the step of the rig forward & then doing all of the above.
When you have done this, your rig will look to have a lot more rake / pre-bend than normal cruising boats in the marina, whose rigs are generally set up far to upright, but probably not as much bend as racing boats, whose rigs are normally adjusted for the weather they'll be sailing in, but generally kept with a fair amount of rake / pre-bend to give them height up the beat.
Just to be clear, the main sheet isn't stuck up the track on one tack & is all the way down on the other? If it is, this will give the symptoms you describe.
Assuming it's not the main & the rig is out of line, to put it back straight, do the following:
1: Slacken off all shrouds, caps, forestay & backstay
2: Ideally, take the boom off the gooseneck if you can
3: Make sure the mast is upright in its footing
4: Tighten the shrouds by exactly the same amount of turns on each side until there is only about 2" 3" deflection when you pull against them
5: Take the slack out of the forestay and backstay.
This will give you very, very neutral rig, which will feel lifeless whilst sailing, but is the only place to start from.
Take the boat out in about 15 kts of breeze & sail to windward on stbd tack. Have a look at the rig from the centre of the stern and find where it is deflecting. If it is deflecting at the top, tighten the D2's (cap shrouds) a few turns (always remember how many turns!!). If it is deflecting below the spreaders, tighten the D1's by a few turns.
Do the same now on port tack.
Your rig is now set straight, but you still son't be getting much weather helm & you need about 10 degrees or so. There are two ways (actually, it is a combination of both for the pedants!), but the simplest to do whilst you are out tuning is to put more pre-bend in the rig.
Ease the forestay by a few turns and take these turns up on both the backstay and the cap shrouds. You may well need to put many more turns on the backstay than you have taken off the forestay, so don't be afraid of this! Obviously, the backstay is pulling the top of the mast closer to the deck, so the caps will go slack. Take the slack up on these & then repeat the sailing to windward bit to check whether the top is deflecting. If so, tighten the caps (remember to count the number of turns to duplicate on the other tack). If this still doesn't give you sufficient weather helm, let some more forestay off & repeat. For completeness, the other way is to put more rake into the mast, but this involves moving the step of the rig forward & then doing all of the above.
When you have done this, your rig will look to have a lot more rake / pre-bend than normal cruising boats in the marina, whose rigs are generally set up far to upright, but probably not as much bend as racing boats, whose rigs are normally adjusted for the weather they'll be sailing in, but generally kept with a fair amount of rake / pre-bend to give them height up the beat.
schmalex said:
Assuming you are trimming the main the same on each tack, simply put, your rig isn't straight.
Just to be clear, the main sheet isn't stuck up the track on one tack & is all the way down on the other? If it is, this will give the symptoms you describe.
Assuming it's not the main & the rig is out of line, to put it back straight, do the following:
1: Slacken off all shrouds, caps, forestay & backstay
2: Ideally, take the boom off the gooseneck if you can
3: Make sure the mast is upright in its footing
4: Tighten the shrouds by exactly the same amount of turns on each side until there is only about 2" 3" deflection when you pull against them
5: Take the slack out of the forestay and backstay.
This will give you very, very neutral rig, which will feel lifeless whilst sailing, but is the only place to start from.
Take the boat out in about 15 kts of breeze & sail to windward on stbd tack. Have a look at the rig from the centre of the stern and find where it is deflecting. If it is deflecting at the top, tighten the D2's (cap shrouds) a few turns (always remember how many turns!!). If it is deflecting below the spreaders, tighten the D1's by a few turns.
Do the same now on port tack.
Your rig is now set straight, but you still son't be getting much weather helm & you need about 10 degrees or so. There are two ways (actually, it is a combination of both for the pedants!), but the simplest to do whilst you are out tuning is to put more pre-bend in the rig.
Ease the forestay by a few turns and take these turns up on both the backstay and the cap shrouds. You may well need to put many more turns on the backstay than you have taken off the forestay, so don't be afraid of this! Obviously, the backstay is pulling the top of the mast closer to the deck, so the caps will go slack. Take the slack up on these & then repeat the sailing to windward bit to check whether the top is deflecting. If so, tighten the caps (remember to count the number of turns to duplicate on the other tack). If this still doesn't give you sufficient weather helm, let some more forestay off & repeat. For completeness, the other way is to put more rake into the mast, but this involves moving the step of the rig forward & then doing all of the above.
When you have done this, your rig will look to have a lot more rake / pre-bend than normal cruising boats in the marina, whose rigs are generally set up far to upright, but probably not as much bend as racing boats, whose rigs are normally adjusted for the weather they'll be sailing in, but generally kept with a fair amount of rake / pre-bend to give them height up the beat.
What superb advice, well done that man.Just to be clear, the main sheet isn't stuck up the track on one tack & is all the way down on the other? If it is, this will give the symptoms you describe.
Assuming it's not the main & the rig is out of line, to put it back straight, do the following:
1: Slacken off all shrouds, caps, forestay & backstay
2: Ideally, take the boom off the gooseneck if you can
3: Make sure the mast is upright in its footing
4: Tighten the shrouds by exactly the same amount of turns on each side until there is only about 2" 3" deflection when you pull against them
5: Take the slack out of the forestay and backstay.
This will give you very, very neutral rig, which will feel lifeless whilst sailing, but is the only place to start from.
Take the boat out in about 15 kts of breeze & sail to windward on stbd tack. Have a look at the rig from the centre of the stern and find where it is deflecting. If it is deflecting at the top, tighten the D2's (cap shrouds) a few turns (always remember how many turns!!). If it is deflecting below the spreaders, tighten the D1's by a few turns.
Do the same now on port tack.
Your rig is now set straight, but you still son't be getting much weather helm & you need about 10 degrees or so. There are two ways (actually, it is a combination of both for the pedants!), but the simplest to do whilst you are out tuning is to put more pre-bend in the rig.
Ease the forestay by a few turns and take these turns up on both the backstay and the cap shrouds. You may well need to put many more turns on the backstay than you have taken off the forestay, so don't be afraid of this! Obviously, the backstay is pulling the top of the mast closer to the deck, so the caps will go slack. Take the slack up on these & then repeat the sailing to windward bit to check whether the top is deflecting. If so, tighten the caps (remember to count the number of turns to duplicate on the other tack). If this still doesn't give you sufficient weather helm, let some more forestay off & repeat. For completeness, the other way is to put more rake into the mast, but this involves moving the step of the rig forward & then doing all of the above.
When you have done this, your rig will look to have a lot more rake / pre-bend than normal cruising boats in the marina, whose rigs are generally set up far to upright, but probably not as much bend as racing boats, whose rigs are normally adjusted for the weather they'll be sailing in, but generally kept with a fair amount of rake / pre-bend to give them height up the beat.
I've made a note of this myself, will be going through all of these steps myself next spring....
maser_spyder said:
schmalex said:
Assuming you are trimming the main the same on each tack, simply put, your rig isn't straight.
Just to be clear, the main sheet isn't stuck up the track on one tack & is all the way down on the other? If it is, this will give the symptoms you describe.
Assuming it's not the main & the rig is out of line, to put it back straight, do the following:
1: Slacken off all shrouds, caps, forestay & backstay
2: Ideally, take the boom off the gooseneck if you can
3: Make sure the mast is upright in its footing
4: Tighten the shrouds by exactly the same amount of turns on each side until there is only about 2" 3" deflection when you pull against them
5: Take the slack out of the forestay and backstay.
This will give you very, very neutral rig, which will feel lifeless whilst sailing, but is the only place to start from.
Take the boat out in about 15 kts of breeze & sail to windward on stbd tack. Have a look at the rig from the centre of the stern and find where it is deflecting. If it is deflecting at the top, tighten the D2's (cap shrouds) a few turns (always remember how many turns!!). If it is deflecting below the spreaders, tighten the D1's by a few turns.
Do the same now on port tack.
Your rig is now set straight, but you still son't be getting much weather helm & you need about 10 degrees or so. There are two ways (actually, it is a combination of both for the pedants!), but the simplest to do whilst you are out tuning is to put more pre-bend in the rig.
Ease the forestay by a few turns and take these turns up on both the backstay and the cap shrouds. You may well need to put many more turns on the backstay than you have taken off the forestay, so don't be afraid of this! Obviously, the backstay is pulling the top of the mast closer to the deck, so the caps will go slack. Take the slack up on these & then repeat the sailing to windward bit to check whether the top is deflecting. If so, tighten the caps (remember to count the number of turns to duplicate on the other tack). If this still doesn't give you sufficient weather helm, let some more forestay off & repeat. For completeness, the other way is to put more rake into the mast, but this involves moving the step of the rig forward & then doing all of the above.
When you have done this, your rig will look to have a lot more rake / pre-bend than normal cruising boats in the marina, whose rigs are generally set up far to upright, but probably not as much bend as racing boats, whose rigs are normally adjusted for the weather they'll be sailing in, but generally kept with a fair amount of rake / pre-bend to give them height up the beat.
What superb advice, well done that man.Just to be clear, the main sheet isn't stuck up the track on one tack & is all the way down on the other? If it is, this will give the symptoms you describe.
Assuming it's not the main & the rig is out of line, to put it back straight, do the following:
1: Slacken off all shrouds, caps, forestay & backstay
2: Ideally, take the boom off the gooseneck if you can
3: Make sure the mast is upright in its footing
4: Tighten the shrouds by exactly the same amount of turns on each side until there is only about 2" 3" deflection when you pull against them
5: Take the slack out of the forestay and backstay.
This will give you very, very neutral rig, which will feel lifeless whilst sailing, but is the only place to start from.
Take the boat out in about 15 kts of breeze & sail to windward on stbd tack. Have a look at the rig from the centre of the stern and find where it is deflecting. If it is deflecting at the top, tighten the D2's (cap shrouds) a few turns (always remember how many turns!!). If it is deflecting below the spreaders, tighten the D1's by a few turns.
Do the same now on port tack.
Your rig is now set straight, but you still son't be getting much weather helm & you need about 10 degrees or so. There are two ways (actually, it is a combination of both for the pedants!), but the simplest to do whilst you are out tuning is to put more pre-bend in the rig.
Ease the forestay by a few turns and take these turns up on both the backstay and the cap shrouds. You may well need to put many more turns on the backstay than you have taken off the forestay, so don't be afraid of this! Obviously, the backstay is pulling the top of the mast closer to the deck, so the caps will go slack. Take the slack up on these & then repeat the sailing to windward bit to check whether the top is deflecting. If so, tighten the caps (remember to count the number of turns to duplicate on the other tack). If this still doesn't give you sufficient weather helm, let some more forestay off & repeat. For completeness, the other way is to put more rake into the mast, but this involves moving the step of the rig forward & then doing all of the above.
When you have done this, your rig will look to have a lot more rake / pre-bend than normal cruising boats in the marina, whose rigs are generally set up far to upright, but probably not as much bend as racing boats, whose rigs are normally adjusted for the weather they'll be sailing in, but generally kept with a fair amount of rake / pre-bend to give them height up the beat.
I've made a note of this myself, will be going through all of these steps myself next spring....
Edited by schmalex on Wednesday 23 September 22:05
schmalex said:
Happy to come & help you set it up when you do it & the OP's if he keeps his round the Solent area.
I may well take you up on that, thanks!My rig has been up and down like a fiddlers elbow for the past three years, down to France, and back again, and I've never gotten around to setting it up 'properly' as you describe here, partly due to time, but mainly due to inexperience.
I'll give you a shout when I'm down early next year, we're away for a month now, so will be early November before we can go boating again, a bit late in the season sadly.
Sincere thanks again for the advice above, I'm sure the OP will be very please when he checks back here!
Loads of useful information here - thanks everyone. I've checked the tiller and rudder to make sure they are aligned correctly but the problem is one of pressure, not tiller position on different tacks.
Bit more info may help. Boat is a masthead rigged, bilge keel Leisure 20 with twin forestays (I use both at once) and hanked on headsails. I had horrible lee helm on both tacks especially with the genoa hoisted almost all the time when I first bough it. I cured this by raking the mast back and was reasonably happy, but since buying new sails - the old ones were really shagged - I've noticed this helm imbalance every time I've been out in a reasonable wind. New sails are developing lots more power which I guess has made the imbalance a lot more noticable but apart from the helm imbalance the boat is sailing really well.
Going hard to windward in a F3/4 on port there's a reasonable pull on the tiller to windward, which you can control nicely with the main traveler. If you let go of the tiller the boat will turn quickly into wind and usually carry enough momentum to tack itself and go through the wind onto starboard. Do the same on starboard tack in identical conditions and traveller position and there's little or no pull to windward. Let go and the boat will either carry on in a straight line or slowly drift downwind and eventually gybe. The only way to get some weather helm on starboard is to either pull the traveller right up to windward which usually stalls the tell tales on the mainsail leech or heel the boat excessively.
Any more thoughts or suggestions would be great - thanks again chaps
Bit more info may help. Boat is a masthead rigged, bilge keel Leisure 20 with twin forestays (I use both at once) and hanked on headsails. I had horrible lee helm on both tacks especially with the genoa hoisted almost all the time when I first bough it. I cured this by raking the mast back and was reasonably happy, but since buying new sails - the old ones were really shagged - I've noticed this helm imbalance every time I've been out in a reasonable wind. New sails are developing lots more power which I guess has made the imbalance a lot more noticable but apart from the helm imbalance the boat is sailing really well.
Going hard to windward in a F3/4 on port there's a reasonable pull on the tiller to windward, which you can control nicely with the main traveler. If you let go of the tiller the boat will turn quickly into wind and usually carry enough momentum to tack itself and go through the wind onto starboard. Do the same on starboard tack in identical conditions and traveller position and there's little or no pull to windward. Let go and the boat will either carry on in a straight line or slowly drift downwind and eventually gybe. The only way to get some weather helm on starboard is to either pull the traveller right up to windward which usually stalls the tell tales on the mainsail leech or heel the boat excessively.
Any more thoughts or suggestions would be great - thanks again chaps
Jaguar steve said:
Loads of useful information here - thanks everyone. I've checked the tiller and rudder to make sure they are aligned correctly but the problem is one of pressure, not tiller position on different tacks.
Bit more info may help. Boat is a masthead rigged, bilge keel Leisure 20 with twin forestays (I use both at once) and hanked on headsails. I had horrible lee helm on both tacks especially with the genoa hoisted almost all the time when I first bough it. I cured this by raking the mast back and was reasonably happy, but since buying new sails - the old ones were really shagged - I've noticed this helm imbalance every time I've been out in a reasonable wind. New sails are developing lots more power which I guess has made the imbalance a lot more noticable but apart from the helm imbalance the boat is sailing really well.
Going hard to windward in a F3/4 on port there's a reasonable pull on the tiller to windward, which you can control nicely with the main traveler. If you let go of the tiller the boat will turn quickly into wind and usually carry enough momentum to tack itself and go through the wind onto starboard. Do the same on starboard tack in identical conditions and traveller position and there's little or no pull to windward. Let go and the boat will either carry on in a straight line or slowly drift downwind and eventually gybe. The only way to get some weather helm on starboard is to either pull the traveller right up to windward which usually stalls the tell tales on the mainsail leech or heel the boat excessively.
Any more thoughts or suggestions would be great - thanks again chaps
Steve, it's definitely the rig. If your sailmaker is close to you, they can often be persuaded to come out with you for a couple of hours to tune it properly. The rig always needs to be tuned into a new set of sails, as the cut will be different from your old set, with the draft a lot further forward.Bit more info may help. Boat is a masthead rigged, bilge keel Leisure 20 with twin forestays (I use both at once) and hanked on headsails. I had horrible lee helm on both tacks especially with the genoa hoisted almost all the time when I first bough it. I cured this by raking the mast back and was reasonably happy, but since buying new sails - the old ones were really shagged - I've noticed this helm imbalance every time I've been out in a reasonable wind. New sails are developing lots more power which I guess has made the imbalance a lot more noticable but apart from the helm imbalance the boat is sailing really well.
Going hard to windward in a F3/4 on port there's a reasonable pull on the tiller to windward, which you can control nicely with the main traveler. If you let go of the tiller the boat will turn quickly into wind and usually carry enough momentum to tack itself and go through the wind onto starboard. Do the same on starboard tack in identical conditions and traveller position and there's little or no pull to windward. Let go and the boat will either carry on in a straight line or slowly drift downwind and eventually gybe. The only way to get some weather helm on starboard is to either pull the traveller right up to windward which usually stalls the tell tales on the mainsail leech or heel the boat excessively.
Any more thoughts or suggestions would be great - thanks again chaps
schmalex said:
Jaguar steve said:
Loads of useful information here - thanks everyone. I've checked the tiller and rudder to make sure they are aligned correctly but the problem is one of pressure, not tiller position on different tacks.
Bit more info may help. Boat is a masthead rigged, bilge keel Leisure 20 with twin forestays (I use both at once) and hanked on headsails. I had horrible lee helm on both tacks especially with the genoa hoisted almost all the time when I first bough it. I cured this by raking the mast back and was reasonably happy, but since buying new sails - the old ones were really shagged - I've noticed this helm imbalance every time I've been out in a reasonable wind. New sails are developing lots more power which I guess has made the imbalance a lot more noticable but apart from the helm imbalance the boat is sailing really well.
Going hard to windward in a F3/4 on port there's a reasonable pull on the tiller to windward, which you can control nicely with the main traveler. If you let go of the tiller the boat will turn quickly into wind and usually carry enough momentum to tack itself and go through the wind onto starboard. Do the same on starboard tack in identical conditions and traveller position and there's little or no pull to windward. Let go and the boat will either carry on in a straight line or slowly drift downwind and eventually gybe. The only way to get some weather helm on starboard is to either pull the traveller right up to windward which usually stalls the tell tales on the mainsail leech or heel the boat excessively.
Any more thoughts or suggestions would be great - thanks again chaps
Steve, it's definitely the rig. If your sailmaker is close to you, they can often be persuaded to come out with you for a couple of hours to tune it properly. The rig always needs to be tuned into a new set of sails, as the cut will be different from your old set, with the draft a lot further forward.Bit more info may help. Boat is a masthead rigged, bilge keel Leisure 20 with twin forestays (I use both at once) and hanked on headsails. I had horrible lee helm on both tacks especially with the genoa hoisted almost all the time when I first bough it. I cured this by raking the mast back and was reasonably happy, but since buying new sails - the old ones were really shagged - I've noticed this helm imbalance every time I've been out in a reasonable wind. New sails are developing lots more power which I guess has made the imbalance a lot more noticable but apart from the helm imbalance the boat is sailing really well.
Going hard to windward in a F3/4 on port there's a reasonable pull on the tiller to windward, which you can control nicely with the main traveler. If you let go of the tiller the boat will turn quickly into wind and usually carry enough momentum to tack itself and go through the wind onto starboard. Do the same on starboard tack in identical conditions and traveller position and there's little or no pull to windward. Let go and the boat will either carry on in a straight line or slowly drift downwind and eventually gybe. The only way to get some weather helm on starboard is to either pull the traveller right up to windward which usually stalls the tell tales on the mainsail leech or heel the boat excessively.
Any more thoughts or suggestions would be great - thanks again chaps
Thanks Schmalex, I think getting the sailmaker out to have a look is worth a try. I can't for the life of me see why the helm balance should be so different on different tacks, but as I do mostly single handed it's a bit hard to lie on the cabin roof staring up at the rig whilst bashing to windward. Thanks too for offer of helping to set up my rig but I'm on the Essex coast - thats a bit too far to come even if I buy you as much beer as you can drink afterwards.
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