Flying- Take off and Landing?
Discussion
As a qualified aircraft engineer I am able to answer this one:
Essentially having the blinds open lets more light into the aircraft and the lighter it is, the less fuel is needed for take off.
On landing, the lighter the plane is then the easier it is to go around in the event of an emergency.
HTH
ETA I wrote this when the thread was in the lounge...it made sense then...less so now..
Essentially having the blinds open lets more light into the aircraft and the lighter it is, the less fuel is needed for take off.
On landing, the lighter the plane is then the easier it is to go around in the event of an emergency.
HTH
ETA I wrote this when the thread was in the lounge...it made sense then...less so now..
Edited by DrTre on Tuesday 29th September 18:35
crofty1984 said:
If you crash the emergency crews can look in and get a better idea of what they're dealing with.
No, no no and no, and along the same snopes lines, the brace position isn't designed to kill you. It is actually to allow the passengers' eyes to adjust to the lighting outside and to allow them to be orientated, simple as that.
Edited to add, just to justify why the crash reason isn't valid, since when have emergency crews climbed up and looked through windows to assess the situation after an accident?
Edited by Defcon on Tuesday 29th September 18:53
Engineer1 said:
I suspect it has become standard practice after the hijacking of planes in the 70's, gives the authorities a chance to see in and also a plane landing with the blinds down looks odd.
Sorry for laughing but your suggestion is funny. I have no idea why it is but to suggest it's for cosmetic purposes is amusing me no end.
Defcon said:
crofty1984 said:
If you crash the emergency crews can look in and get a better idea of what they're dealing with.
No, no no and no, and along the same snopes lines, the brace position isn't designed to kill you. It is actually to allow the passengers' eyes to adjust to the lighting outside and to allow them to be orientated, simple as that.
Edited to add, just to justify why the crash reason isn't valid, since when have emergency crews climbed up and looked through windows to assess the situation after an accident?
Edited by Defcon on Tuesday 29th September 18:53
But hey, what would I know.........
There are numerous reasons that window blinds are opened for landing, from the fact that it makes it easier to see if anything is on fire, to reduced problems with night blindness by having the blinds opened and the lights dimmed.
IforB said:
Defcon said:
crofty1984 said:
If you crash the emergency crews can look in and get a better idea of what they're dealing with.
No, no no and no, and along the same snopes lines, the brace position isn't designed to kill you. It is actually to allow the passengers' eyes to adjust to the lighting outside and to allow them to be orientated, simple as that.
Edited to add, just to justify why the crash reason isn't valid, since when have emergency crews climbed up and looked through windows to assess the situation after an accident?
Edited by Defcon on Tuesday 29th September 18:53
But hey, what would I know.........
There are numerous reasons that window blinds are opened for landing, from the fact that it makes it easier to see if anything is on fire, to reduced problems with night blindness by having the blinds opened and the lights dimmed.
) will be an expert on aviation safety, I hate to break it to you, but even a Navajo requires step ladders to look inside the passenger compartment. Even in the best lighting conditions, you'll struggle to see through a passenger window without interior lighting, which will certainly not be present in an accident where rescue personell are able to look into the cabin before entering it. Please, please let me know which emergency would enable a commercial aircraft to land, requiring emergency responders to look through windows before using the cutting points, that is if the slides aren't able to deploy?! If it is on fire, the windows are pointless, if it lands on its own wheels, the windows are pointless, if it lands in one piece on its belly, the windows are pointless, if it hits hard enough that the doors are unavailable and the aircraft has been on fire and you're looking for survivors, the SOP is to enter the aircraft through pre determined cut points and enter the cabin, not peer through every bloody window.
"60 windows and counting Sarge, can't see f
k all". Are they preparing themselves not to recoil in horror over a body or something? A living person amongst corpses won't be audible through a passenger window, even with a loud speaker, and if the scene is that bad, will someone heroically spot an ashy, waving hand? Then what? Defcon said:
IforB said:
Defcon said:
crofty1984 said:
If you crash the emergency crews can look in and get a better idea of what they're dealing with.
No, no no and no, and along the same snopes lines, the brace position isn't designed to kill you. It is actually to allow the passengers' eyes to adjust to the lighting outside and to allow them to be orientated, simple as that.
Edited to add, just to justify why the crash reason isn't valid, since when have emergency crews climbed up and looked through windows to assess the situation after an accident?
Edited by Defcon on Tuesday 29th September 18:53
But hey, what would I know.........
There are numerous reasons that window blinds are opened for landing, from the fact that it makes it easier to see if anything is on fire, to reduced problems with night blindness by having the blinds opened and the lights dimmed.
) will be an expert on aviation safety, I hate to break it to you, but even a Navajo requires step ladders to look inside the passenger compartment. Even in the best lighting conditions, you'll struggle to see through a passenger window without interior lighting, which will certainly not be present in an accident where rescue personell are able to look into the cabin before entering it. Please, please let me know which emergency would enable a commercial aircraft to land, requiring emergency responders to look through windows before using the cutting points, that is if the slides aren't able to deploy?! If it is on fire, the windows are pointless, if it lands on its own wheels, the windows are pointless, if it lands in one piece on its belly, the windows are pointless, if it hits hard enough that the doors are unavailable and the aircraft has been on fire and you're looking for survivors, the SOP is to enter the aircraft through pre determined cut points and enter the cabin, not peer through every bloody window.
"60 windows and counting Sarge, can't see f
k all". Are they preparing themselves not to recoil in horror over a body or something? A living person amongst corpses won't be audible through a passenger window, even with a loud speaker, and if the scene is that bad, will someone heroically spot an ashy, waving hand? Then what? When I last did SEP and fire and smoke training and not to mention when I last wrote our ops manual, the reasons I stated are exactly why you leave the blinds up.
You cannot legislate for every single possible emergency, so procedures are written and laid down to allow for lots of possibilities.
One that pops into my mind is what would happen if an aircraft was off stand, with the doors closed and wasn't responding to communication? What would you do? Would you immediately start cutting into the cabin, or would you have a look through the windows to see if anyone was conscious?
Other reasons are in case of things like fire and an emergency evacuation. If the blinds are open, the pax can see if one side of the aircraft is in flames and decide for themselves which exit they are going to go for.
As I said, there are lots of reasons, emergency crews looking through the windows to see why an evacuation ahsn't been started is just one of them. They don't look through each one of course, but it means they can get an idea of what's going on before they break out the heavy gear.
Are you telling me that fire crew wouldn't look through a window just before they start to cut, even here?
Cut points are usually in areas where pax are seated and no matter how hardened a person is, they are unlikely to chop through someone deliberately.
You always assess a situation before you act, particularily in an emergency. I'm not going to debate the 1001 possibilities of how emergency crews might act in a certain situation, as it is pointless. They do reserve the right to do whatever the hell they think is correct given the myriad of wierd and wonderful ways that aircraft have of getting into trouble. Looking through a window is but one trick they like to keep up their sleeve.
Edited by IforB on Wednesday 30th September 00:35
IforB said:
Defcon said:
IforB said:
Defcon said:
crofty1984 said:
If you crash the emergency crews can look in and get a better idea of what they're dealing with.
No, no no and no, and along the same snopes lines, the brace position isn't designed to kill you. It is actually to allow the passengers' eyes to adjust to the lighting outside and to allow them to be orientated, simple as that.
Edited to add, just to justify why the crash reason isn't valid, since when have emergency crews climbed up and looked through windows to assess the situation after an accident?
Edited by Defcon on Tuesday 29th September 18:53
But hey, what would I know.........
There are numerous reasons that window blinds are opened for landing, from the fact that it makes it easier to see if anything is on fire, to reduced problems with night blindness by having the blinds opened and the lights dimmed.
) will be an expert on aviation safety, I hate to break it to you, but even a Navajo requires step ladders to look inside the passenger compartment. Even in the best lighting conditions, you'll struggle to see through a passenger window without interior lighting, which will certainly not be present in an accident where rescue personell are able to look into the cabin before entering it. Please, please let me know which emergency would enable a commercial aircraft to land, requiring emergency responders to look through windows before using the cutting points, that is if the slides aren't able to deploy?! If it is on fire, the windows are pointless, if it lands on its own wheels, the windows are pointless, if it lands in one piece on its belly, the windows are pointless, if it hits hard enough that the doors are unavailable and the aircraft has been on fire and you're looking for survivors, the SOP is to enter the aircraft through pre determined cut points and enter the cabin, not peer through every bloody window.
"60 windows and counting Sarge, can't see f
k all". Are they preparing themselves not to recoil in horror over a body or something? A living person amongst corpses won't be audible through a passenger window, even with a loud speaker, and if the scene is that bad, will someone heroically spot an ashy, waving hand? Then what? When I last did SEP and fire and smoke training and not to mention when I last wrote our ops manual, the reasons I stated are exactly why you leave the blinds up.
You cannot legislate for every single possible emergency, so procedures are written and laid down to allow for lots of possibilities.
One that pops into my mind is what would happen if an aircraft was off stand, with the doors closed and wasn't responding to communication? What would you do? Would you immediately start cutting into the cabin, or would you have a look through the windows to see if anyone was conscious?
Other reasons are in case of things like fire and an emergency evacuation. If the blinds are open, the pax can see if one side of the aircraft is in flames and decide for themselves which exit they are going to go for.
As I said, there are lots of reasons, emergency crews looking through the windows is just one of them. They don't look through each one of course, but it means they can get an idea of what's going on before they break out the heavy gear.
You always assess a situation before you act, particularily in an emergency. I'm not going to debate the 1001 possibilities of how emergency crews might act in a certain situation, as it is pointless. They do reserve the right to do whatever the hell they think is correct given the myriad of wierd and wonderful ways that aircraft have of getting into trouble. Looking through a window is but one trick they like to keep up their sleeve.
Why make it so easy?There is a quick and easy reason for why commercial airlines request passengers to raise blinds during periods in which they could be on the ground again within 5 minutes.
Its a shame that airport fire tenders carry foam and entry equiptment over ladders and glare shields, they could save so many more lives if only they looked through windows.
Oh and
IforB said:
Other reasons are in case of things like fire and an emergency evacuation. If the blinds are open, the pax can see if one side of the aircraft is in flames and decide for themselves which exit they are going to go for.
You mean a general awareness of their directional situation in relation to danger, otherwise known as orientation? I think I possibly said that already, perhaps? Really, honestly, if the fire crew need to peer into the triple glazing*, is there any point in an appliance arriving at all? That's the coroner's job.
- Yes, I'm being sarcastic.
IforB said:
Are you telling me that fire crew wouldn't look through a window just before they start to cut, even here?
No doubt there, thet's a marked emergency exit, but every blind doesn't need to be opened just so the passengers in the emergency aisle don't feel left out. Sit in the back seat of a completely sealed off car and be driven round for 2 hours, then get out and run in a straight line after completing a jump and emergency stop.
Edited by Defcon on Wednesday 30th September 00:42
Defcon said:
IforB said:
Defcon said:
IforB said:
Defcon said:
crofty1984 said:
If you crash the emergency crews can look in and get a better idea of what they're dealing with.
No, no no and no, and along the same snopes lines, the brace position isn't designed to kill you. It is actually to allow the passengers' eyes to adjust to the lighting outside and to allow them to be orientated, simple as that.
Edited to add, just to justify why the crash reason isn't valid, since when have emergency crews climbed up and looked through windows to assess the situation after an accident?
Edited by Defcon on Tuesday 29th September 18:53
But hey, what would I know.........
There are numerous reasons that window blinds are opened for landing, from the fact that it makes it easier to see if anything is on fire, to reduced problems with night blindness by having the blinds opened and the lights dimmed.
) will be an expert on aviation safety, I hate to break it to you, but even a Navajo requires step ladders to look inside the passenger compartment. Even in the best lighting conditions, you'll struggle to see through a passenger window without interior lighting, which will certainly not be present in an accident where rescue personell are able to look into the cabin before entering it. Please, please let me know which emergency would enable a commercial aircraft to land, requiring emergency responders to look through windows before using the cutting points, that is if the slides aren't able to deploy?! If it is on fire, the windows are pointless, if it lands on its own wheels, the windows are pointless, if it lands in one piece on its belly, the windows are pointless, if it hits hard enough that the doors are unavailable and the aircraft has been on fire and you're looking for survivors, the SOP is to enter the aircraft through pre determined cut points and enter the cabin, not peer through every bloody window.
"60 windows and counting Sarge, can't see f
k all". Are they preparing themselves not to recoil in horror over a body or something? A living person amongst corpses won't be audible through a passenger window, even with a loud speaker, and if the scene is that bad, will someone heroically spot an ashy, waving hand? Then what? When I last did SEP and fire and smoke training and not to mention when I last wrote our ops manual, the reasons I stated are exactly why you leave the blinds up.
You cannot legislate for every single possible emergency, so procedures are written and laid down to allow for lots of possibilities.
One that pops into my mind is what would happen if an aircraft was off stand, with the doors closed and wasn't responding to communication? What would you do? Would you immediately start cutting into the cabin, or would you have a look through the windows to see if anyone was conscious?
Other reasons are in case of things like fire and an emergency evacuation. If the blinds are open, the pax can see if one side of the aircraft is in flames and decide for themselves which exit they are going to go for.
As I said, there are lots of reasons, emergency crews looking through the windows is just one of them. They don't look through each one of course, but it means they can get an idea of what's going on before they break out the heavy gear.
You always assess a situation before you act, particularily in an emergency. I'm not going to debate the 1001 possibilities of how emergency crews might act in a certain situation, as it is pointless. They do reserve the right to do whatever the hell they think is correct given the myriad of wierd and wonderful ways that aircraft have of getting into trouble. Looking through a window is but one trick they like to keep up their sleeve.
Why make it so easy?There is a quick and easy reason for why commercial airlines request passengers to raise blinds during periods in which they could be on the ground again within 5 minutes.
Its a shame that airport fire tenders carry foam and entry equiptment over ladders and glare shields, they could save so many more lives if only they looked through windows.
Oh and
IforB said:
Other reasons are in case of things like fire and an emergency evacuation. If the blinds are open, the pax can see if one side of the aircraft is in flames and decide for themselves which exit they are going to go for.
You mean a general awareness of their directional situation in relation to danger, otherwise known as orientation? I think I possibly said that already, perhaps? Now, would you like to explain how you have any idea what you are talking about? What qualifications you have that might mean you aren;t just a simple troll?
At the moment you are simply proving to me that you haven't got the foggiest about airline ops and especially safety management or shall I employ you as a consultant so that you can come and teach us the error of our ways?
I tell you what, I'll give the fire boys a bell and you can go and tell them how they are doing their job incorrectly. They'll love that.
clueless said:
You mean a general awareness of their directional situation in relation to danger, otherwise known as orientation? I think I possibly said that already, perhaps?
Really, honestly, if the fire crew need to peer into the triple glazing*, is there any point in an appliance arriving at all? That's the coroner's job.
You can't think of a situation where people might be unconscious with no external sign of trouble? Are you daft or just not trying very hard?Really, honestly, if the fire crew need to peer into the triple glazing*, is there any point in an appliance arriving at all? That's the coroner's job.
How about a fume problem in the aircon where carbon monoxide gets into the cabin? It's happened before. Saudia lost an entire aircraft full of people thanks to something like that once.
Edited by IforB on Wednesday 30th September 00:46
IforB said:
Defcon said:
IforB said:
Defcon said:
IforB said:
Defcon said:
crofty1984 said:
If you crash the emergency crews can look in and get a better idea of what they're dealing with.
No, no no and no, and along the same snopes lines, the brace position isn't designed to kill you. It is actually to allow the passengers' eyes to adjust to the lighting outside and to allow them to be orientated, simple as that.
Edited to add, just to justify why the crash reason isn't valid, since when have emergency crews climbed up and looked through windows to assess the situation after an accident?
Edited by Defcon on Tuesday 29th September 18:53
But hey, what would I know.........
There are numerous reasons that window blinds are opened for landing, from the fact that it makes it easier to see if anything is on fire, to reduced problems with night blindness by having the blinds opened and the lights dimmed.
) will be an expert on aviation safety, I hate to break it to you, but even a Navajo requires step ladders to look inside the passenger compartment. Even in the best lighting conditions, you'll struggle to see through a passenger window without interior lighting, which will certainly not be present in an accident where rescue personell are able to look into the cabin before entering it. Please, please let me know which emergency would enable a commercial aircraft to land, requiring emergency responders to look through windows before using the cutting points, that is if the slides aren't able to deploy?! If it is on fire, the windows are pointless, if it lands on its own wheels, the windows are pointless, if it lands in one piece on its belly, the windows are pointless, if it hits hard enough that the doors are unavailable and the aircraft has been on fire and you're looking for survivors, the SOP is to enter the aircraft through pre determined cut points and enter the cabin, not peer through every bloody window.
"60 windows and counting Sarge, can't see f
k all". Are they preparing themselves not to recoil in horror over a body or something? A living person amongst corpses won't be audible through a passenger window, even with a loud speaker, and if the scene is that bad, will someone heroically spot an ashy, waving hand? Then what? When I last did SEP and fire and smoke training and not to mention when I last wrote our ops manual, the reasons I stated are exactly why you leave the blinds up.
You cannot legislate for every single possible emergency, so procedures are written and laid down to allow for lots of possibilities.
One that pops into my mind is what would happen if an aircraft was off stand, with the doors closed and wasn't responding to communication? What would you do? Would you immediately start cutting into the cabin, or would you have a look through the windows to see if anyone was conscious?
Other reasons are in case of things like fire and an emergency evacuation. If the blinds are open, the pax can see if one side of the aircraft is in flames and decide for themselves which exit they are going to go for.
As I said, there are lots of reasons, emergency crews looking through the windows is just one of them. They don't look through each one of course, but it means they can get an idea of what's going on before they break out the heavy gear.
You always assess a situation before you act, particularily in an emergency. I'm not going to debate the 1001 possibilities of how emergency crews might act in a certain situation, as it is pointless. They do reserve the right to do whatever the hell they think is correct given the myriad of wierd and wonderful ways that aircraft have of getting into trouble. Looking through a window is but one trick they like to keep up their sleeve.
Why make it so easy?There is a quick and easy reason for why commercial airlines request passengers to raise blinds during periods in which they could be on the ground again within 5 minutes.
Its a shame that airport fire tenders carry foam and entry equiptment over ladders and glare shields, they could save so many more lives if only they looked through windows.
Oh and
IforB said:
Other reasons are in case of things like fire and an emergency evacuation. If the blinds are open, the pax can see if one side of the aircraft is in flames and decide for themselves which exit they are going to go for.
You mean a general awareness of their directional situation in relation to danger, otherwise known as orientation? I think I possibly said that already, perhaps? Wait, you go from "Us" to "Me", and you now have control over the fire brigade?? If you really believe that you need to raise and lower your blinds on takeoff and landing for the emergency services can see you, then I've finally found the reason behind the decline in British aviation. Stick to single props, they may be dangerous but you'd be doing a favour for an entire industry.
Edited by Defcon on Wednesday 30th September 00:47
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