What the engine in my train?
Discussion
We have these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_170#Southern_Re... although they seem to have been renumbered to Class 171 as someone decided it would be a good idea if they hd the same coupling as the electric trains that run to East Grinstead so if either break down on the Oxed to East Croydon section the next train can push it out the way.
From the article it appears you may have Class 159s.
From the article it appears you may have Class 159s.
south west use 158/159 dmu the 158/159 has cummins or perkins engines power is 350-400 bhp
there just over 22m long and 2.7m wide they where made in derby from 89-92
when them came into sevice they would do 100mph but now the top speed is 90
the drivers cab is poor the seat has little ajustment, and if you have the drivers window
open at speed the cab door flys open at will slamming shut just inches from the driver !
there just over 22m long and 2.7m wide they where made in derby from 89-92
when them came into sevice they would do 100mph but now the top speed is 90
the drivers cab is poor the seat has little ajustment, and if you have the drivers window
open at speed the cab door flys open at will slamming shut just inches from the driver !
Class 158 had either Cummins 350 hp / Cummins 400hp or Perkins 350 hp
Class 159 has a Cummins 400hp engine
All Class 158/9 are 90mph trains (never 100 mph, although they have to capable of 10% overspeed))
Class 170 has an MTU 183 engine (based on an MB OM440 truck engine) - 430 hp
Class 171 has an MTU 6H engine see MTU
All 170/1 are 100 mph
All trains up to and including Class 170 use variants of the Voith T211 hydrodynamic transmission see Voith,
the Class 171 uses a version of the ZF Ecomat transmission see ZF
Class 159 has a Cummins 400hp engine
All Class 158/9 are 90mph trains (never 100 mph, although they have to capable of 10% overspeed))
Class 170 has an MTU 183 engine (based on an MB OM440 truck engine) - 430 hp
Class 171 has an MTU 6H engine see MTU
All 170/1 are 100 mph
All trains up to and including Class 170 use variants of the Voith T211 hydrodynamic transmission see Voith,
the Class 171 uses a version of the ZF Ecomat transmission see ZF
Edited by nc107 on Monday 5th October 21:48
Edited by nc107 on Monday 5th October 21:50
nc107 said:
Class 158 had either Cummins 350 hp / Cummins 400hp or Perkins 350 hp
Class 159 has a Cummins 400hp engine
All Class 158/9 are 90mph trains (never 100 mph, although they have to capable of 10% overspeed))
Class 170 has an MTU 183 engine (based on an MB OM440 truck engine) - 430 hp
Class 171 has an MTU 6H engine see MTU
All 170/1 are 100 mph
All trains up to and including Class 170 use variants of the Voith T211 hydrodynamic transmission see Voith,
the Class 171 uses a version of the ZF Ecomat transmission see ZF
when 158s first came into service in 1989 they where 100mph trainsClass 159 has a Cummins 400hp engine
All Class 158/9 are 90mph trains (never 100 mph, although they have to capable of 10% overspeed))
Class 170 has an MTU 183 engine (based on an MB OM440 truck engine) - 430 hp
Class 171 has an MTU 6H engine see MTU
All 170/1 are 100 mph
All trains up to and including Class 170 use variants of the Voith T211 hydrodynamic transmission see Voith,
the Class 171 uses a version of the ZF Ecomat transmission see ZF
Edited by nc107 on Monday 5th October 21:48
Edited by nc107 on Monday 5th October 21:50
but fears that the cardon shaft was not man enough for the job
there for max speed was regualted by the driver to 90 mph
i myself have had a 158 off the clock witch is 100mph
ps dont belive all you read on vikipedia
I didn't look at Wiki thanks. The design specification was 90mph. I was part of the power train design team on the Class 158 for BREL and I did the performance tests on Class 158. The drive shaft problems had no influence whatsoever on the rated maximum speed of the vehicle as it was a torsional excitation problem related to the whirling speed of the drive shaft. They were increased in diameter from 120mm to 140mm (as were Class 165/6 which suffered the same problem) which solved the problem, but rated speed remained the same, don't believe everything you hear in the canteen.
I know they are driven above their rated speed to make up time (as are many trains), but as I said they have to be capable of +10% overspeed on half worn wheels (as does every train). We managed 109mph with new wheels and auxiliaries off. But from a specification, timetabling and operational planning POV they were, are and always will be a nominal 90mph line speed vehicle. Class 170's (I was also the powertrain designer on those) are rated at 100mph but on new wheels will do 115mph.
I know they are driven above their rated speed to make up time (as are many trains), but as I said they have to be capable of +10% overspeed on half worn wheels (as does every train). We managed 109mph with new wheels and auxiliaries off. But from a specification, timetabling and operational planning POV they were, are and always will be a nominal 90mph line speed vehicle. Class 170's (I was also the powertrain designer on those) are rated at 100mph but on new wheels will do 115mph.
nc107 said:
I didn't look at Wiki thanks. The design specification was 90mph. I was part of the power train design team on the Class 158 for BREL and I did the performance tests on Class 158. The drive shaft problems had no influence whatsoever on the rated maximum speed of the vehicle as it was a torsional excitation problem related to the whirling speed of the drive shaft. They were increased in diameter from 120mm to 140mm (as were Class 165/6 which suffered the same problem) which solved the problem, but rated speed remained the same, don't believe everything you hear in the canteen.
I know they are driven above their rated speed to make up time (as are many trains), but as I said they have to be capable of +10% overspeed on half worn wheels (as does every train). We managed 109mph with new wheels and auxiliaries off. But from a specification, timetabling and operational planning POV they were, are and always will be a nominal 90mph line speed vehicle. Class 170's (I was also the powertrain designer on those) are rated at 100mph but on new wheels will do 115mph.
Think that rates as a pretty comprehensively impressive 'Get your tanks off my lawn' response!I know they are driven above their rated speed to make up time (as are many trains), but as I said they have to be capable of +10% overspeed on half worn wheels (as does every train). We managed 109mph with new wheels and auxiliaries off. But from a specification, timetabling and operational planning POV they were, are and always will be a nominal 90mph line speed vehicle. Class 170's (I was also the powertrain designer on those) are rated at 100mph but on new wheels will do 115mph.
Chrisgr31 said:
So how do you manage to get it so that when you haveseveral units connected together they are all running at the same speed, and one isn't dragging another along?
If that makes sense!
In answer to your question you will always have one pushing and one holding back as it is impossible to ensure all engines / transmissions / wheel sizes are the same, and maintain exactly the same train speed. In reality it makes little difference and is not dangerous. Similarly when braking you cannot guarantee that all carriages brake at the same rate. This is why the couplers are so substantial and have plenty of longitudinal compliance in them!If that makes sense!
Wheels wear by about 150mm between replacements. During their life they are turned periodically on a lathe to clean the tread and profile up and to re-match wheel diameters. This is very important as the speed signals are taken from the wheels (so wheel diameter is a key part of the algorithm). If the incorrect wheel diameter is input into the speed circuit the speedo will give an incorrect reading. This can result in serious incidents. It is also vitally important to match wheel diameters across driven axles as on a diesel vehicle the bogies have no differential - they are fixed ratio axles - so different wheel diameters on a power bogie result in huge torque wind up in the drive shafts with predictable results, as the wheels on an effectively fixed system try to turn at different speeds. On electric vehicle with separately driven axles (via traction motors) this gives less of a problem but if you are using a single converter to drive two wheelsets they can only cope with a small difference in rotational speed of the motor before they say "i've had enough".
I was perhaps a bit harsh to black1 (apologies) but Class 158's were my first project and they had a very difficult gestation period and there are many bar room tales about them and those that were involved tend to be a bit defensive (not to say we didn't make mistakes
)Never been involved with Locos much but I did do some tests on the Class 92 Loco (130 odd tons - 5MW). Without any wagons it would do 0-60 in about 18secs...with wheel spin !!
Edited by nc107 on Wednesday 7th October 00:52
It's not the axles that wind up, but the drive shaft that connects the two axles on a powered bogie. Then the wheels slip like a clutch.
If the unit is diesel the pop popping is most likely to be the air unloader valve. On diesels the air compressor runs all the time (it's driven off the engine crank) so when the air system is full there is a valve that "unloads" i.e. periodically vents to atmosphere. If it is an electric unit I'm not so sure as the compressors usually only run on demand.
If the unit is diesel the pop popping is most likely to be the air unloader valve. On diesels the air compressor runs all the time (it's driven off the engine crank) so when the air system is full there is a valve that "unloads" i.e. periodically vents to atmosphere. If it is an electric unit I'm not so sure as the compressors usually only run on demand.
nc107 said:
Chrisgr31 said:
So how do you manage to get it so that when you haveseveral units connected together they are all running at the same speed, and one isn't dragging another along?
If that makes sense!
Wheels wear by about 150mm between replacements. If that makes sense!
Edited by nc107 on Wednesday 7th October 00:52
nc107 said:
It's not the axles that wind up, but the drive shaft that connects the two axles on a powered bogie. Then the wheels slip like a clutch.
If the unit is diesel the pop popping is most likely to be the air unloader valve. On diesels the air compressor runs all the time (it's driven off the engine crank) so when the air system is full there is a valve that "unloads" i.e. periodically vents to atmosphere. If it is an electric unit I'm not so sure as the compressors usually only run on demand.
Thanks. Thats quite interesting. So how much energy/power is lost though diesel to electric conversion?If the unit is diesel the pop popping is most likely to be the air unloader valve. On diesels the air compressor runs all the time (it's driven off the engine crank) so when the air system is full there is a valve that "unloads" i.e. periodically vents to atmosphere. If it is an electric unit I'm not so sure as the compressors usually only run on demand.
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