How much does it cost to develop an passenger aircraft?

[james_tigerwoods]

I've no idea why this has sprung to mind, but how much does it cost to deploy a new airliner, say the 787, from scratch - R&D, testing, prototype, etc?

[Eric Mc]

Tens of Billions.

I bet even Boeing or Airbus couldn't give you a precise figure.

[dr_gn]

james_tigerwoods said:

I've no idea why this has sprung to mind, but how much does it cost to deploy a new airliner, say the 787, from scratch - R&D, testing, prototype, etc?

For the 787 an estimated $15 billion or so for Boeing. This isn't including the development work done by suppliers and sub-contractors. Course for Boeing this is a big change in materials usage for a passenger aircraft airframe (being mostly composite) and they are paying a hefty premium for developing it (as are many of their main partners and suppliers!).

[james_tigerwoods]

dr_gn said:

james_tigerwoods said:

I've no idea why this has sprung to mind, but how much does it cost to deploy a new airliner, say the 787, from scratch - R&D, testing, prototype, etc?

For the 787 an estimated $15 billion or so for Boeing. This isn't including the development work done by suppliers and sub-contractors. Course for Boeing this is a big change in materials usage for a passenger aircraft airframe (being mostly composite) and they are paying a hefty premium for developing it (as are many of their main partners and suppliers!).

So what does it cost to buy the finished aircraft and what's the break-even point?

And do the carrier continue to pay anything to the manufacturer over the life cycle of the aircraft?

[anonymous-user]

Varies massively. The A380 used to have a break even sales point of about 240, I bet its more like 400 now though. I suspect the same trend will happen with the 787 too. They are looking at a 2nd assembly line to make up for the delays on the 787 so there will be a huge charge for that, let alone the charges airlines will be making.

[dr_gn]

james_tigerwoods said:

dr_gn said:

james_tigerwoods said:

I've no idea why this has sprung to mind, but how much does it cost to deploy a new airliner, say the 787, from scratch - R&D, testing, prototype, etc?

For the 787 an estimated $15 billion or so for Boeing. This isn't including the development work done by suppliers and sub-contractors. Course for Boeing this is a big change in materials usage for a passenger aircraft airframe (being mostly composite) and they are paying a hefty premium for developing it (as are many of their main partners and suppliers!).

So what does it cost to buy the finished aircraft and what's the break-even point?

And do the carrier continue to pay anything to the manufacturer over the life cycle of the aircraft?

How can anyone know the break-even point when the aircraft hasn't even flown yet due to fairly major technical problems which will cost money to solve? Break even point is a moving target at the moment.

List prices here (ballpark obviously):

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/

[williamp]

Its funny how vocal the press were over the delayed/increased costs of the A380. Yet silent with the delays/increased costs of the Dreamliner.

[john_p]

A380 ~€230m each
Breakeven was quoted as 420
(both figures from 2006)

So, call it €100bn - andthat's before you include discounts, "in-warranty" repairs, etc etc

They have delivered 19 and have 181 orders outstanding. I suppose things will pick up once the economic climate gets better..

[Eric Mc]

Boeing had real problems selling the 747 for the first ten years of its life. Airliner manufacturing is a real long term proposition.

[dr_gn]

williamp said:

Its funny how vocal the press were over the delayed/increased costs of the A380. Yet silent with the delays/increased costs of the Dreamliner.

I wouldn't say they're silent - even Boeing give press releases on a regular basis with progress updates.

[john_p]

Yes, I'd imagine the 380 family to be a 50yr+ proposition (DC-9 is 45 yrs old, 747 is 41 yrs old..). Boeing have built 1400+ 747s, so even with the variant upgrades they must be well ahead.

I wonder how much they make on aircraft once they have been built? Spares must make them quite a bit for the lifetime of the aircraft, I assume you can't buy 'pattern' airline equipment

[Eric Mc]

It's interesting to look at the production lives of a number of different airliners -

Boeing 707 - 1958 to 1992
Boeing 727 - 1962 to 1982
Boeing 737 - 1967 to date
Douglas DC-8 - 1958 to 1972
Douglas DC-9/MD80/MD90/Boeing 717 - 1965 to 2006
Airbus A300 - 1972 to date
Boeing 767 - 1981 to date

[dcw@pr]

dr_gn said:

james_tigerwoods said:

dr_gn said:

james_tigerwoods said:

I've no idea why this has sprung to mind, but how much does it cost to deploy a new airliner, say the 787, from scratch - R&D, testing, prototype, etc?

For the 787 an estimated $15 billion or so for Boeing. This isn't including the development work done by suppliers and sub-contractors. Course for Boeing this is a big change in materials usage for a passenger aircraft airframe (being mostly composite) and they are paying a hefty premium for developing it (as are many of their main partners and suppliers!).

So what does it cost to buy the finished aircraft and what's the break-even point?

And do the carrier continue to pay anything to the manufacturer over the life cycle of the aircraft?

How can anyone know the break-even point when the aircraft hasn't even flown yet due to fairly major technical problems which will cost money to solve? Break even point is a moving target at the moment.

List prices here (ballpark obviously):

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/

how come a freighter costs more than a passenger plane - I'd have thought it would be the other way round?

[BrassMan]

It's been compared with putting the company on black and spinning the wheel, but a decent design can pay off over decades. The low cost airline explosion was Airbuses big breakthrough when new startups without parts historys went for the A320, so it can be unpredictable.

john_p said:

I wonder how much they make on aircraft once they have been built? Spares must make them quite a bit for the lifetime of the aircraft, I assume you can't buy 'pattern' airline equipment

Not that much, although engines (so I am told) can be sold at a loss on the right service contract.

All the major manufacturers have serious government backing and are in the "too important to fold" category, whether it's direct (Airbus) or miltary (Boeing, although they have had executives jailed).

I read this a while ago, well worth a look.

[dr_gn]

dcw@pr said:

dr_gn said:

james_tigerwoods said:

dr_gn said:

james_tigerwoods said:

I've no idea why this has sprung to mind, but how much does it cost to deploy a new airliner, say the 787, from scratch - R&D, testing, prototype, etc?

For the 787 an estimated $15 billion or so for Boeing. This isn't including the development work done by suppliers and sub-contractors. Course for Boeing this is a big change in materials usage for a passenger aircraft airframe (being mostly composite) and they are paying a hefty premium for developing it (as are many of their main partners and suppliers!).

So what does it cost to buy the finished aircraft and what's the break-even point?

And do the carrier continue to pay anything to the manufacturer over the life cycle of the aircraft?

How can anyone know the break-even point when the aircraft hasn't even flown yet due to fairly major technical problems which will cost money to solve? Break even point is a moving target at the moment.

List prices here (ballpark obviously):

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/

how come a freighter costs more than a passenger plane - I'd have thought it would be the other way round?

Lots more cargo handling equipment and large doors etc. On the 747 freighter for example, the entire nose lifts:

http://www.boeingcapital.com/p2p/archive/03.2006/7...

[navier_stokes]

james_tigerwoods said:

dr_gn said:

james_tigerwoods said:

I've no idea why this has sprung to mind, but how much does it cost to deploy a new airliner, say the 787, from scratch - R&D, testing, prototype, etc?

For the 787 an estimated $15 billion or so for Boeing. This isn't including the development work done by suppliers and sub-contractors. Course for Boeing this is a big change in materials usage for a passenger aircraft airframe (being mostly composite) and they are paying a hefty premium for developing it (as are many of their main partners and suppliers!).

So what does it cost to buy the finished aircraft and what's the break-even point?

And do the carrier continue to pay anything to the manufacturer over the life cycle of the aircraft?

Many aerospace companies rely on life cycle costs (maintenance etc) for profit - especially for engines it's around 50%.

[sorrento205]

john_p said:

I wonder how much they make on aircraft once they have been built? Spares must make them quite a bit for the lifetime of the aircraft, I assume you can't buy 'pattern' airline equipment

Youd be suprised how often we need spares and Boeing haven't got the right part, which is normally bad news because seattle is normally our last port of call anyway!

[bobthemonkey]

dr_gn said:

dcw@pr said:

dr_gn said:

james_tigerwoods said:

dr_gn said:

james_tigerwoods said:

I've no idea why this has sprung to mind, but how much does it cost to deploy a new airliner, say the 787, from scratch - R&D, testing, prototype, etc?

For the 787 an estimated $15 billion or so for Boeing. This isn't including the development work done by suppliers and sub-contractors. Course for Boeing this is a big change in materials usage for a passenger aircraft airframe (being mostly composite) and they are paying a hefty premium for developing it (as are many of their main partners and suppliers!).

So what does it cost to buy the finished aircraft and what's the break-even point?

And do the carrier continue to pay anything to the manufacturer over the life cycle of the aircraft?

How can anyone know the break-even point when the aircraft hasn't even flown yet due to fairly major technical problems which will cost money to solve? Break even point is a moving target at the moment.

List prices here (ballpark obviously):

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/

how come a freighter costs more than a passenger plane - I'd have thought it would be the other way round?

Lots more cargo handling equipment and large doors etc. On the 747 freighter for example, the entire nose lifts:

http://www.boeingcapital.com/p2p/archive/03.2006/7...

On top of the airframe cost for a pax plane, you have to furnish it, so the overall cost will be higher.

[Eric Mc]

The nose lifts on only some 747 freighters.

[james_tigerwoods]

Are 747s still being made?