Gunther Rall dies at 91
Discussion
Simpo Two said:
My father attended a lecture by him. He was captivating speaker by all accounts. Some Fanboy asked what was the best plane he ever flew (thinking it would be a German fighter) - his response The Mustang.It won't be long until we're mourning the death of the last WWII vet - kind of makes you feel old.
bob1179 said:
Some of the comments below are interesting too, there seems to be quite a divide.
Yes, it's a pity the over-educated Dr Richard P. Hallion can't leave the politics out of it and simply deal with the man. I'm half tempted to join in but PH is more than enough!Edited by Simpo Two on Thursday 15th October 10:12
Simpo Two said:
bob1179 said:
Some of the comments below are interesting too, there seems to be quite a divide.
Yes, it's a pity the over-educated Dr Richard P. Hallion can't leave the politics out of it and simply deal with the man. I'm half tempted to join in but PH is more than enough!Edited by Simpo Two on Thursday 15th October 10:12
I would hazard a guess that Hallion is NOT an idiot. He seems to have held some fairly important positions in the aerospace world and seems to be a historian of some standing. However, there is no doubt that he is extremely opinionated (which isn't allways a bad thing).
I have great respect for the combatants who faught on all sides. Rall and his companions were miltary men who did their duty. What else would they have done?
I have great respect for the combatants who faught on all sides. Rall and his companions were miltary men who did their duty. What else would they have done?
Eric Mc said:
I would hazard a guess that Hallion is NOT an idiot. He seems to have held some fairly important positions in the aerospace world and seems to be a historian of some standing. However, there is no doubt that he is extremely opinionated (which isn't allways a bad thing).
I have great respect for the combatants who faught on all sides. Rall and his companions were miltary men who did their duty. What else would they have done?
I guess it depends on your definition of idiot. He may be "book" smart (to use an Americanism) but he's not that clever if he's singularly unable to differentiate between the death of a single man, and actions of a regime. It's also not particularly wise to start slagging off war heroes on an internationally read news site that is likely to be viewed by an awful lot of people - many of whom will be ex-military - when your job relies on interviewing exactly this sort of person. I have great respect for the combatants who faught on all sides. Rall and his companions were miltary men who did their duty. What else would they have done?
The fact he held high office in NATO and allied airmen chose to socialise with him suggest he's wrong.
Fittster said:
Eric Mc said:
I have great respect for the combatants who faught on all sides. Rall and his companions were miltary men who did their duty. What else would they have done?
Followed their conscience? The "I was following orders defence" is a little out of fashion.What would you have done?
Eric Mc said:
Fittster said:
Eric Mc said:
I have great respect for the combatants who faught on all sides. Rall and his companions were miltary men who did their duty. What else would they have done?
Followed their conscience? The "I was following orders defence" is a little out of fashion.What would you have done?
I've probably got more time for conscientious objectors than many posters, although they don't get to play with interesting toys.
How many steps away from the Commandant of Bergen-Belsen is it acceptable to be?
Fittster said:
Eric Mc said:
Fittster said:
Eric Mc said:
I have great respect for the combatants who faught on all sides. Rall and his companions were miltary men who did their duty. What else would they have done?
Followed their conscience? The "I was following orders defence" is a little out of fashion.What would you have done?
I've probably got more time for conscientious objectors than many posters, although they don't get to play with interesting toys.
How many steps away from the Commandant of Bergen-Belsen is it acceptable to be?
First of all, young men like Rall joined the Luftwaffe because of their burning desire to fly.
Secondly, all German men of a certain age had to serve in the military/state in some capacity. If you were keen on flying, it made sense to volunteer for the Luftwaffe.
Thirdly, at the time they signed up, these men would have been young idealists, convinced of the "rightness" of their cause and their Fuhrer (however misguided they might have been). So, initially anyway, they would not have been struggling with any great moral dilemmas. In fact, they might have felt that morally they were compelled to "do their bit" for the Fatherland. Morally, I would say they were quite comfortable with their actions.
Obviously, as the war progressed, the true nature of the Nazi regime would have become far more apparent but by then a new imperative would have driven their actions - the defence of their homeland and the defence of their families.
Indeed, even Allied airmen and soldiers faced moral dilemmas over some of the actions in which they took part.
Eric Mc said:
Fittster said:
Eric Mc said:
Fittster said:
Eric Mc said:
I have great respect for the combatants who faught on all sides. Rall and his companions were miltary men who did their duty. What else would they have done?
Followed their conscience? The "I was following orders defence" is a little out of fashion.What would you have done?
I've probably got more time for conscientious objectors than many posters, although they don't get to play with interesting toys.
How many steps away from the Commandant of Bergen-Belsen is it acceptable to be?
First of all, young men like Rall joined the Luftwaffe because of their burning desire to fly.
Secondly, all German men of a certain age had to serve in the military/state in some capacity. If you were keen on flying, it made sense to volunteer for the Luftwaffe.
Thirdly, at the time they signed up, these men would have been young idealists, convinced of the "rightness" of their cause and their Fuhrer (however misguided they might have been). So, initially anyway, they would not have been struggling with any great moral dilemmas. In fact, they might have felt that morally they were compelled to "do their bit" for the Fatherland. Morally, I would say they were quite comfortable with their actions.
Obviously, as the war progressed, the true nature of the Nazi regime would have become far more apparent but by then a new imperative would have driven their actions - the defence of their homeland and the defence of their families.
Indeed, even Allied airmen and soldiers faced moral dilemmas over some of the actions in which they took part.
And remember to, they were military officers and therefore forbidden to be card carrying Nazi party members, but the degree to which any individual agreed in theory with the policies of it's Govt is hugely variable, as is the case today.
For example Gordon Gollop and Hans-Ulrich Rudel had very strong leanings in that direction, but many others such as Heinz Bar, Erich Hartmann, Barkhorn, Rall, Molders etc didn't, and many of these who managed to survived the war were thus able to re-join the post-war Luftwaffe.
I met Rall about 15 years ago.
Edited by aeropilot on Thursday 15th October 14:09
Eric Mc said:
Obviously, as the war progressed, the true nature of the Nazi regime would have become far more apparent but by then a new imperative would have driven their actions - the defence of their homeland and the defence of their families.
Indeed, even Allied airmen and soldiers faced moral dilemmas over some of the actions in which they took part.
I think it is too easy to look back with hindsight and criticse an individual for his actions at that time, especially as we have far more knowledge about the overall situation than most people living through it would have had.Indeed, even Allied airmen and soldiers faced moral dilemmas over some of the actions in which they took part.
Not every soldier in an opposing army is a war-criminal, some were simply doing their job. It becomes much harder to justify however, when you are talking about things which are so obviously wrong, such as being directly involved with mass murders or reprisals carried out against civilian populations.
tank slapper said:
Eric Mc said:
Obviously, as the war progressed, the true nature of the Nazi regime would have become far more apparent but by then a new imperative would have driven their actions - the defence of their homeland and the defence of their families.
Indeed, even Allied airmen and soldiers faced moral dilemmas over some of the actions in which they took part.
I think it is too easy to look back with hindsight and criticse an individual for his actions at that time, especially as we have far more knowledge about the overall situation than most people living through it would have had.Indeed, even Allied airmen and soldiers faced moral dilemmas over some of the actions in which they took part.
Not every soldier in an opposing army is a war-criminal, some were simply doing their job. It becomes much harder to justify however, when you are talking about things which are so obviously wrong, such as being directly involved with mass murders or reprisals carried out against civilian populations.
True war criminals can usually be separated out from "normal" combatants.
Never thought Id see the day someone choose to have an argument about war crimes and morality over Gunter Rall's death.
Put simply Rall is a legend in the aviation world, held in the same sort of awe as Moelders, Galland, Malan, Johnson and Bader of the era. Rall is one of the names you talk in hushed tones about.
And Hallion? Well...he isnt.
Make of that what you will.
Put simply Rall is a legend in the aviation world, held in the same sort of awe as Moelders, Galland, Malan, Johnson and Bader of the era. Rall is one of the names you talk in hushed tones about.
And Hallion? Well...he isnt.
Make of that what you will.
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