How do you get "into" off roading?
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
James Drake said:
So, I've been on a few experience days and really enjoyed off roading. I'm sure that, like most experience centres, it is a watered down version and there is much more fun to be had out in the wild.
Anyway, my brother-in-law is also game and we're considering buying something like a discovery between us (one that's already had lots of stuff done to it). They seem to be fairly widely available and start from £1,500. At this stage, we're really wanting to dip our toe in the water so I appreciate that we're going to be going for the lower end of the market.
With all this in mind, I guess I was wondering firstly what we should be looking for in terms of vehicle. We've concluded that we like the idea of a Land Rover, and there are plenty of Discos within budget. But there are a whole host of upgrades that they seem to have. I'm guessing that tyres are the first thing to get changed, but some have "vehicle lift kits", "Body Lift kits", winches, roll cages and so on. Basically, what's the minimum we need?
Secondly... where do we use it? In my head there are loads of off road centres about the place where you can just turn up and play. Is that true or have I made it up as a bit of googling only seems to reveal loads of experience centres. Also, how is best to navigate green lanes as I don't want to upset anyone but love the idea of driving across country! (We're centrally located in the Midlands by the way!)
Any and all advice gratefully received.
Cheers
JD
I can probably help you out here.Anyway, my brother-in-law is also game and we're considering buying something like a discovery between us (one that's already had lots of stuff done to it). They seem to be fairly widely available and start from £1,500. At this stage, we're really wanting to dip our toe in the water so I appreciate that we're going to be going for the lower end of the market.
With all this in mind, I guess I was wondering firstly what we should be looking for in terms of vehicle. We've concluded that we like the idea of a Land Rover, and there are plenty of Discos within budget. But there are a whole host of upgrades that they seem to have. I'm guessing that tyres are the first thing to get changed, but some have "vehicle lift kits", "Body Lift kits", winches, roll cages and so on. Basically, what's the minimum we need?
Secondly... where do we use it? In my head there are loads of off road centres about the place where you can just turn up and play. Is that true or have I made it up as a bit of googling only seems to reveal loads of experience centres. Also, how is best to navigate green lanes as I don't want to upset anyone but love the idea of driving across country! (We're centrally located in the Midlands by the way!)
Any and all advice gratefully received.
Cheers
JD
The first thing to consider is what you'll use the vehicle for. This is critical, as it'll dictate the type, make and model of vehicle you should be looking at.
If you don't own suitable land to drive off road, there are 3 main ways to do it in the UK.
1. Green laning, which technically isn't 'off road' driving, as they are legal roads. But they will encompass off road driving techniques and are usually unpaved.
In the UK green lanes are as a rule 100% passable in most standard 4x4's that have off road ability. e.g. a standard Discovery, Defender type of thing.
This means you can choose pretty much any proper 4x4 and many soft roaders. The off roading will tend to be similar to an experience day or tamer. Sadly there are horrible people who think the ground next to the lanes is their play area, and will piss about tearing it up making a real mess. PLEASE don't end up being one of these tits though.
There are lots of lanes about. However it would be sensible to either go with someone who has done it before, or join a local 4x4 club and attend an organised Green Laning trip.
Green lanes are fun, but you can only teach yourself so much about off road driving. Usually the biggest hurdle on green lanes is they can be stratchy, o you may not want to take a nice motor on them.
Also don't try laning by yourself. At least not until you know what you are doing. Despite how capable 4x4's are, its amazing how easily they can become stuck.
2. Prick & Prat sites.
These are named accordingly, but sadly seem to attract the kind of people you'd often label as "tossers". This isn't to say all sites are like this, nor all the people attending. But you will find a lot of stupid people at them and some very poor and dangerous driving.
In terms of 4x4's. Depends, you can go as extreme as you like. But the phrase all the gear and no idea is certainly true in this regard. And so many of the modified vehicles at places like this are often inferior to standard vehicles, because the muppets have no clue or understanding how the vehicle really works.
And while pissing about on your own or with a mate getting your vehicle constantly stuck may have appeal at first. For me it's a novelty that soon wears off. There is no real structure to driving at sites like this. It's a bit like finding a deserted open car park. You could have fun doing handbrake turns, donuts, etc. But after a while, you'll hanker for some structure and a challenge, such s putting cones out and trying to drive a preset course.
Laning is different, you have a destination to reach. But P&P sites have no objective to attain and nothing to achieve. They can be useful for trying different techniques or parts. But due to other people being there, it is likely a haphazard way of doing it.
3. Competition.
I left this to last, because in all honesty it's probably the best. And not as clear cut as you might think.
This is proper grass roots motorsport. And very affordable, £20-25 a year membership and £20-25 per event entrant fee. There are few motorsports cheaper.
Off road competition consists of many different types of events. Including speed events. But it would be best to start with something more sensible.
Trials events are what you'd probably be interested in. These are events where you have to drive a course on sometimes fairly extreme terrain, similar to Prick & Prat sites. The big difference is, because it's a driven line that is meant to be challenging, you'll find it a lot more difficult than simply driving around a Pay & Play site. In return you'll learn far more about off road driving, control and techniques.
However here's the clever bit
Note that most Pay & Play sites will be circa £25 to enter.
Trials events happen all the time, most clubs will run one event per month and chances are there is more than one club in your local area. A trial event will however need setting up.
So for the cost of annual membership (£20-25) you could get the chance to spend the day setting up some trials sections. This will mean a lot of off road driving. And it'll normally be with another vehicle or two. So a chance to learn from other people, but in a nice controlled environment not full of morons thinking they are a genius behind the wheel (P&P sites...).
In the UK the two main ways to enter trials is via the AWDC (All Wheel Drive Club). They cater for any make of vehicle. But split them into classes.
And the ALRC (Association of Land Rover Clubs). Who run Land Rover only events.
The main type of entry level trialling is known as RTV (Road Taxed Vehicle). Which means it just needs to be road legal, with suitable recovery points by and large.
________________
So things to consider.
-4x4's are often used for other activities. If you think you'll want to haul or tow with it. Then you'll need a vehicle capable of doing so.
-Consider your use carefully. If laning is likely to be your prime interest. Then consider that there will be long road sections and many hours seat time. So you may want a more comfortable vehicle, rather than a basic one. Also consider how many people might be in the vehicle. Two brothers + partners means you'll want 4 good seats. Or if you 2 adults and 2 children. And if you are going away for a weekend, you'll need a boot able to fit enough luggage in. Roof racks and trailers are not really suited to green lanes.
-Competition. Certain vehicles make better RTV vehicles than others. And you'd probably be disappointed if you were in something difficult to drive or hugely uncompetitive. And obviously if the ALRC appeals, then it'll have to of a specific make as well.
-Spares and upgrades. Unless you have good reason too do otherwise, you may want to buy something that has a good spares and aftermarket. Off roading by it's very nature may mean breaking stuff from time to time. And while a standard vehicle can be very capable, there may be some upgrades you'd be interested in. If it's an oddball vehicle there may be no aftermarket at all and getting some items might prove challenging. To this end, if you live in the UK, you should consider a Land Rover, because it is so well supported, which makes it very easy to use for such activities.
-Vehicle capability. Not all 4x4's are created equally. So depending on what you think you want to use the vehicle for, you may want to consider how capable your chosen vehicle is, in standard trim as well as modified.
For example, a Defender is massively capable with no mods at all. And with some mods is has enough ability for serious off road competitions of an extreme nature.
Whereas something like a Navara pickup is far more limiting. Big overhangs, poor off road suspension and no real aftermarket to speak of. These are far less capable in standard trim and it would take some serious money to make them comparable to a standard Defender.
-Modified or not.
I know in your op you've said about getting a modified Disco. Now, if you know what you are looking at specifically, you can get a good deal. Even if it's just parts to sell on. The trouble is, probably 80-90% of the modified Disco's (and others) out there are piles of crap, with very poor selection of components. This means you are likely ending up with a vehicle that'll drive like crap on the road and even worse, probably perform worse off road than it did when it was standard. So it really is, buy at your own risk. But there is a lot to be said about starting in a standard vehicle and learning what it does well and what it doesn't do well. And going from there. This will be true of any make or model.
-Bits you'll need.
a) Common sense. Most 4x4 incidients happen because people are being stupid.
b) a good tow rope. Something like a Kinetic energy rope is a good idea and can be had for £25.
c) good recovery points, with bracing plates and high tensile bolts. So many accidents are by recovery points failing and resulting in a heavy high speed projectile being thrown towards people or one of the vehicles.
d) tyres. If you are venturing off piste, then normal road tyres are not likely to cut it. Now you don't need to go extreme, but a good AT or MT tyre of appropriate size is a hugely sensible thing.
e) body protection. Unless the vehicle looks like a Defender or a Wrangler, most 4x4's have biggish bumpers front and rear, often plastic. These will often hit the ground and other obstacles off road and are prone to damage. So you may want to trim, remove or replace some bits. It probably isn't essential for your first outing. But as you off road you'll likely find this is a weak area of most modern 4x4's.
f) Lift kits. I advise huge caution here. Many 4x4's do not need a lift kit at all. And many lift kits will result in worse axle articulation and flex off road. However something you'll face, especially on Green Lanes is deep tram line ruts. Which means a low slung 4x4 may get beached easily. So "some" 4x4's may require a lift kit to make them usable on some terrain. I can give an example. A Jeep Cherokee XJ. These ride quite low in standard UK trim, in the US you could opt for an 'Up Country' package witch gave it a factory suspension lift. So if you consider one of these, you will need a lift kit for it. But the critical thing here is, a lifted Cherokee has about the same ground clearance and ride height of a standard Discovery or Defender.... Land Rover products tend to be quite high in standard trim. You do not need to lift a Discovery for the same reasons as you do a Jeep.
As for actual vehicles. Well I have a hit list of ones I'd advise and why, but it's probably best for you to digest what I've written and comment back with your thoughts on it. Feel free to PM if you want more info, I might even be able to point you towards some local clubs.
Thanks
tankplanker said:
I also want to pick up somebody else's project car, something with all the difficult/expensive stuff already done especially a bob tail or similar conversion as it'll work out cheaper in the end than doing everything myself piecemeal. Obviously you need to put effort in to make sure they have done the work properly and that the car is in a good state of repair.
Just be really careful it's been done properly or its a world of pain sorting out the bodge a friend of mine found out with a supposedly off road prepped disco. It was bodged to the point of genuinely dangerous and took us a lot of time and money to put right.I went the other way. I bought a wreck that had stood unloved out in the rain for 10 years with a blown engine never turned a wheel and started from their. It was a mission but I know it's been done right because it was me who did it.
James Drake said:
That is a truly excellent post - thanks so much! I'm going to arrange a "meeting" (pub) with my brother in law to go through this. I love the idea of entering some competitions and am 100% determined to not be one of the prats that you describe!
Again, thanks so much!
JD
No probs. And do feel free to give me a shout if I can help any further.Again, thanks so much!
JD
Hainey said:
Just be really careful it's been done properly or its a world of pain sorting out the bodge a friend of mine found out with a supposedly off road prepped disco. It was bodged to the point of genuinely dangerous and took us a lot of time and money to put right.
I went the other way. I bought a wreck that had stood unloved out in the rain for 10 years with a blown engine never turned a wheel and started from their. It was a mission but I know it's been done right because it was me who did it.
I completely agree, but its no different from purchasing any sort of heavily modified car in that you have to do your homework. For me its worth the effort as with the right car I'd be saving a small fortune on parts and time. I went the other way. I bought a wreck that had stood unloved out in the rain for 10 years with a blown engine never turned a wheel and started from their. It was a mission but I know it's been done right because it was me who did it.
OverSteery said:
Much wisdom from 300.
I would just add a cautionary note on a kinetic recovery ropes. These basically allow the tow car doing the recovery to take a run up and use their vehicle's momentum to pull out a seriously stuck 4x4.
These can exert massive forces on the mounting points. If the a mount tears off, then all that kinetic energy in the rope is used to make it a high velocity lump of metal.
As has been said, most 4x4 injuries are down to stupidity, its basically a safe hobby unless you are an a*se. But snatch recoveries need to be treated with caution.
This picture demonstrates the damage that a broken mounting point can do.
Thanks for the comments.I would just add a cautionary note on a kinetic recovery ropes. These basically allow the tow car doing the recovery to take a run up and use their vehicle's momentum to pull out a seriously stuck 4x4.
These can exert massive forces on the mounting points. If the a mount tears off, then all that kinetic energy in the rope is used to make it a high velocity lump of metal.
As has been said, most 4x4 injuries are down to stupidity, its basically a safe hobby unless you are an a*se. But snatch recoveries need to be treated with caution.
This picture demonstrates the damage that a broken mounting point can do.
Edited by OverSteery on Friday 5th August 12:46
But I'm not convinced on the argument of KERR's.
In my use of them, they are far kinder to the recovery points. Because you don't get a sudden jolt, as the tension is not suddenly taken up. A regular nylon rope or strop has no give at all, so even a slow recovery can transmit an instant high load to the recovery point, let alone a snatch recovery.
A KERR means there is no shock loading to the recovery points, as the rope will stretch. This IMO is far kinder to everything concerned.
Any incident from using a KERR would likely have resulted the same with any other type of rope.
300bhp/ton said:
Any incident from using a KERR would likely have resulted the same with any other type of rope.
Yes, and no.If a normal rope is taken beyond the limit, and snaps, then it doesn't suddenly get rid of all the energy that a kinetic does. It'll go ping, quite probably dramatically, sure. But it won't do a damn good impression of a catapult.
What's worse is when it's not the rope that goes ping, but a shackle or whatever the shackle's attached to. Then you've got a REALLY dangerous situation, whereas a normal rope would just be a bit dodgy.
OverSteery said:
Much wisdom from 300.
I would just add a cautionary note on a kinetic recovery ropes. These basically allow the tow car doing the recovery to take a run up and use their vehicle's momentum to pull out a seriously stuck 4x4.
These can exert massive forces on the mounting points. If the a mount tears off, then all that kinetic energy in the rope is used to make it a high velocity lump of metal.
As has been said, most 4x4 injuries are down to stupidity, its basically a safe hobby unless you are an a*se. But snatch recoveries need to be treated with caution.
This picture demonstrates the damage that a broken mounting point can do.
That's a towball though and a towball is not a recovery point as they are not rated for a snatch recovery. What that picture demonstrates is that the people involved were stupid. I would just add a cautionary note on a kinetic recovery ropes. These basically allow the tow car doing the recovery to take a run up and use their vehicle's momentum to pull out a seriously stuck 4x4.
These can exert massive forces on the mounting points. If the a mount tears off, then all that kinetic energy in the rope is used to make it a high velocity lump of metal.
As has been said, most 4x4 injuries are down to stupidity, its basically a safe hobby unless you are an a*se. But snatch recoveries need to be treated with caution.
This picture demonstrates the damage that a broken mounting point can do.
Edited by OverSteery on Friday 5th August 12:46
TooMany2cvs said:
300bhp/ton said:
Any incident from using a KERR would likely have resulted the same with any other type of rope.
Yes, and no.If a normal rope is taken beyond the limit, and snaps, then it doesn't suddenly get rid of all the energy that a kinetic does. It'll go ping, quite probably dramatically, sure. But it won't do a damn good impression of a catapult.
What's worse is when it's not the rope that goes ping, but a shackle or whatever the shackle's attached to. Then you've got a REALLY dangerous situation, whereas a normal rope would just be a bit dodgy.
JD
TooMany2cvs said:
Yes, and no.
If a normal rope is taken beyond the limit, and snaps, then it doesn't suddenly get rid of all the energy that a kinetic does. It'll go ping, quite probably dramatically, sure. But it won't do a damn good impression of a catapult.
What's worse is when it's not the rope that goes ping, but a shackle or whatever the shackle's attached to. Then you've got a REALLY dangerous situation, whereas a normal rope would just be a bit dodgy.
If a rope snaps, then you only have a rope dangling. KERR or not won't really be an issue. If the recovery point fails, it'll fly through the air just as well with a normal rope or even a winch cable as it will with a KERR. That said, good ropes don't snap very often. The only rope I know that failed was well over 20 years old, worn and was being used to try and pull an 18 tonne corn cart where it had sunk in soft soil up to the axles.If a normal rope is taken beyond the limit, and snaps, then it doesn't suddenly get rid of all the energy that a kinetic does. It'll go ping, quite probably dramatically, sure. But it won't do a damn good impression of a catapult.
What's worse is when it's not the rope that goes ping, but a shackle or whatever the shackle's attached to. Then you've got a REALLY dangerous situation, whereas a normal rope would just be a bit dodgy.
Sure if you were going for how far can you throw a recovery point, then you'd probably pick the KERR. But to claim a KERR is dangerous or not for a novice is IMO not really understanding what is going on.
But it is important to have good recovery points and employ common sense in any recovery. And having towed, recovered, been recovered and been towed with normal ropes, strops and Kinetic ropes, I know which I prefer.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Friday 5th August 17:45
James Drake said:
And on that note... can we try and stay on topic please chaps - this is a really useful thread! I now fully appreciate and understand the dangers of all types of recovery ropes, both kinetic and otherwise. And I haven't even bought an off roader yet!
JD
Back on topic then. The recovery ropes thing does demonstrate one thing in that it's probably a very good idea to get some training. Some clubs do training days but there are also professional instructors.JD
plasticpig said:
Back on topic then. The recovery ropes thing does demonstrate one thing in that it's probably a very good idea to get some training. Some clubs do training days but there are also professional instructors.
Agreed - this is something we're going to do straight away... we figured that if we have our own vehicle then we can learn the quirks of it with an instructor / experience person sat next to us.And on that note I've had an idea. How about a PH "Pay and Play" Sunday Service?
James Drake said:
That is a truly excellent post - thanks so much! I'm going to arrange a "meeting" (pub) with my brother in law to go through this. I love the idea of entering some competitions and am 100% determined to not be one of the prats that you describe!
Again, thanks so much!
JD
Competitions are a lot of fun. And there are many types of events. But remember you can also get better perks by helping setup events. I have found over the years I often enjoy the setup day more and you get to learn and try out loads. Again, thanks so much!
JD
If you are happy with AWDC events, then a small vehicle like a Jimny is a great starting point. As is a Jeep XJ Cherokee. Land Rovers too are good for this. And of course offer the ALRC for extra events and probably the largest single make owners club in the country.
Off roading can be a very slippery slope.
The more work you do (bigger tyres, lift kit etc) the worse you are likely to become stuck.
I had a 3 door discovery 300 v8. I ran 265/75/16 insa turbo special tracks, plastic arches, no lift kit at all ( I did put some +2" damper relocators and home made dislocation cones on) took off the arbs, tank guard, HD rear bumper and a Goodwinch tds 9.5 winch with a bow rope on.
I think in total I was in it for 2.5k and it was awesome. My mate had a 200tdi converted 90 with the full gwen lewis challenge kit on and I went everywhere he did and some places he could (I found airing down the tyres helped a lot and he refused to do it) so mega money doesn't need to be spent.
The more work you do (bigger tyres, lift kit etc) the worse you are likely to become stuck.
I had a 3 door discovery 300 v8. I ran 265/75/16 insa turbo special tracks, plastic arches, no lift kit at all ( I did put some +2" damper relocators and home made dislocation cones on) took off the arbs, tank guard, HD rear bumper and a Goodwinch tds 9.5 winch with a bow rope on.
I think in total I was in it for 2.5k and it was awesome. My mate had a 200tdi converted 90 with the full gwen lewis challenge kit on and I went everywhere he did and some places he could (I found airing down the tyres helped a lot and he refused to do it) so mega money doesn't need to be spent.
Everyone knows landrovers are good off road and I don't deny that, but they can be fragile and do command a premium. I used to green lane and go to pay n play sites for quite a while and saw no end of Land rover/ range rover based cars with blown gearboxes and overheating issues.
Japanese off roaders seemed to be the way to go when I did it. I opted for a mk2 shogun and i never let me down after putting it through all sorts of punishment. All i did was fit some 31" mud terrain tyres and it was great. The uk mk2 came with the locking rear diff which really helped when needed.
Green laning was great around beds/bucks and herts, but the best place we went to was here:
http://www.devilspit.co.uk/offroad/about/
Lots of friendly people and if you get stuck there is always help to get you out.
Japanese off roaders seemed to be the way to go when I did it. I opted for a mk2 shogun and i never let me down after putting it through all sorts of punishment. All i did was fit some 31" mud terrain tyres and it was great. The uk mk2 came with the locking rear diff which really helped when needed.
Green laning was great around beds/bucks and herts, but the best place we went to was here:
http://www.devilspit.co.uk/offroad/about/
Lots of friendly people and if you get stuck there is always help to get you out.
Nesty said:
This is an awesome thread and some great advice, I am being drawn to be the Jimny a bit myself!
I've got a quick question, is it better to go for a manual or auto gearbox for these off-roading endeavours? I'm sure I read somewhere autos are better?
TBH, there really is no right or wrong here, use pro's and con's and a lot of personal preference or bias.I've got a quick question, is it better to go for a manual or auto gearbox for these off-roading endeavours? I'm sure I read somewhere autos are better?
In the UK....
as a rule manuals have always been preferred. Indeed apart from a special edition Defender, you have not been able to buy a traditional Land Rover with an automatic gearbox since 1948 through to the end of production this year. So there must have been a reason for this.
Off road a manual box arguably offers more control, they will normally have a lower crawl speed, have much better engine breaking on descents and more instant throttle response.
For much of what we do off road wise in the UK, they work very well.
And for things like trialling and competitions they have normally been the preferred choice.
In the USA things are different. And auto's tend to be favoured, partly because the vehicles they use are often found with auto boxes readily, but it also suits mud running, bogging and rock crawling well.
To give a bit more info on the subject.
An auto box has a torque converter, this means you'll need to apply a little more throttle than you would in a manual to get the vehicle to move, as this is how a torque converter works. So even with identical gearing, off road you'll find a manual will generally have a more predictable crawl speed, being that the clutch means that essentially the gearbox and engine are fixed together. So if you hit some rough ground or obstacles, manuals will tend to keep on moving, while an auto may stop because it isn't over coming the torque converter anymore. So you need to apply throttle on and off more so with an auto or drive a bit quicker to prevent it stopping.
Not a major issue, but does make for a different technique and feel.
A big difference with auto's is going down steep hills. For most automatic 4x4's the torque converter won't be locked, so when you go down hill it'll largely feel like it free wheels down without much in the way of engine braking. So downhill can be a bit scarier and faster, with sometimes less control. It means you have to use the foot brake a lot more, but that can induce skidding and of course you'll need good working brakes.
I have even seen some people in auto's go down very steep hills with the gearbox in reverse, but the vehicle going forward. The logic here is, you can then apply load and engine braking through the torque convertor, but it's all rather convoluted. Most people just end up going down the slopes faster.
Modern technology can overcome this. If you have a vehicle equipped with Hill Descent Control, then the vehicle will use the ABS to maintain the speed you want. Much more effective than using the brake pedal yourself and much less lockup and skidding.
Some newer vehicles like the Discovery 2 (and I assume newer LR's) are meant to lock the torque converter when in low range. Lock up means it should use a physical clutch plate and lock up a bit like a manual. This will give you similar engine braking to a manual in theory. However I think in practice it may not work quite as well as a manual does.
On the flip side, there is no clutch to ride or burn out with an auto. So of particularly technical off road sections, such as rock crawling, where you may have the vehicle balanced between going forwards and rolling backwards. An auto can be very useful. And will generally be easier to drive on such terrain.
The other big advantage with an auto is you don't have to lift to change gear. So if you find yourself in sudden need of massive amounts more wheel speed and don't want to have to stop, then an auto can shift from 1st to 2nd no problem. Handy in muddy conditions or even sand.
A manual will require you to dip the clutch and off road as soon as you do this it'll stop your momentum. So you have to be more selective with which gear you choose in a manual.
IMO - there really is no right or wrong choice. If you are learning and first time, I'd say opt for a manual if you have the choice. You'll probably have to work a bit harder, but you'll learn more doing so.
But don't dismiss auto's. My current p38 Range Rover and past Jeep Cherokee are auto's and I could easily be a convert on picking an auto off road.
Other things to consider are the rest of the package. Many auto's are only 4 speed and if you haven't got an engine with some grunt or poke, you may find them a little lack luster when out on the open road at normal road speeds. And despite how good an auto can be off road, sometimes a manual is just more fun.
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