Upgrading a Pronto system
Discussion
Since the demise of Logitech's Harmony the direct replacements are.....
RTI
Pro Control (sister brand of RTI)
URC (universal remote control)
Control4
Upper market is Crestron and Savant
There are a few new kids on the block looking to take the Harmony base but they are 3 to 12months away.
Depending on what you need to control will depend on where you need to be in that list.
RTI
Pro Control (sister brand of RTI)
URC (universal remote control)
Control4
Upper market is Crestron and Savant
There are a few new kids on the block looking to take the Harmony base but they are 3 to 12months away.
Depending on what you need to control will depend on where you need to be in that list.
Output Flange said:
I've got an ageing Pronto remote system that's been in place for more than 10 years, and is struggling.
It's time to replace it. Are there any recommendations for an AV installer who covers west Herts who I could contact, please?
Thanks
If changing gets a bit pricey then refreshing the Pronto programming is an option. I keep some gear to support legacy remotes; Pronto going back as far as the early 890 and 940 models through to the 9400 / 9600 and 9800. Also Nevo remotes. This can be done by post & return or by a site visit. It's time to replace it. Are there any recommendations for an AV installer who covers west Herts who I could contact, please?
Thanks
Edited by Lucid_AV on Monday 15th November 05:26
I would not be touching any of this stuff, even with someone else’s 10ft pole.
Interoperability is a big thing right now and will be solved by the device vendors - it’s already happening with the likes of Alexa and Apple home. If it works for them, then the APIs exist for it to work with anything else. The idea of buying an integration platform (with hardware!) that will age faster than the products it is controlling seems …. odd…. It is probably why Logitech has bailed from this market.
As an example - here is the API spec for my M10
https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020...
I haven’t bothered to look on GitHub, but there is probably a python implementation already.
Interoperability is a big thing right now and will be solved by the device vendors - it’s already happening with the likes of Alexa and Apple home. If it works for them, then the APIs exist for it to work with anything else. The idea of buying an integration platform (with hardware!) that will age faster than the products it is controlling seems …. odd…. It is probably why Logitech has bailed from this market.
As an example - here is the API spec for my M10
https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020...
I haven’t bothered to look on GitHub, but there is probably a python implementation already.
rxe said:
I would not be touching any of this stuff, even with someone else’s 10ft pole.
Interoperability is a big thing right now and will be solved by the device vendors - it’s already happening with the likes of Alexa and Apple home. If it works for them, then the APIs exist for it to work with anything else. The idea of buying an integration platform (with hardware!) that will age faster than the products it is controlling seems …. odd…. It is probably why Logitech has bailed from this market.
As an example - here is the API spec for my M10
https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020...
I haven’t bothered to look on GitHub, but there is probably a python implementation already.
And you have just discounted 99.9% of people in the room. Interoperability is a big thing right now and will be solved by the device vendors - it’s already happening with the likes of Alexa and Apple home. If it works for them, then the APIs exist for it to work with anything else. The idea of buying an integration platform (with hardware!) that will age faster than the products it is controlling seems …. odd…. It is probably why Logitech has bailed from this market.
As an example - here is the API spec for my M10
https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020...
I haven’t bothered to look on GitHub, but there is probably a python implementation already.
There are a few newbies out there who are working on it. Sofabaton is one - hatefull name. Bit they are 3-12month off realistically.
Maybe the API's are in there or have the capability of being added. But then you are into Wifi based remotes and needing everything on the local network for it to work. Best will in the world that isnt going to happen in a retail market place and we already do it of sorts in the Custom Install world with brands or installer writing API's for the likes of C4 to control a Sky Q box.
VEX said:
And you have just discounted 99.9% of people in the room.
There are a few newbies out there who are working on it. Sofabaton is one - hatefull name. Bit they are 3-12month off realistically.
Maybe the API's are in there or have the capability of being added. But then you are into Wifi based remotes and needing everything on the local network for it to work. Best will in the world that isnt going to happen in a retail market place and we already do it of sorts in the Custom Install world with brands or installer writing API's for the likes of C4 to control a Sky Q box.
This. In nearly a decade of AV and Building Management System design and installation I have only had two clients talks about API.There are a few newbies out there who are working on it. Sofabaton is one - hatefull name. Bit they are 3-12month off realistically.
Maybe the API's are in there or have the capability of being added. But then you are into Wifi based remotes and needing everything on the local network for it to work. Best will in the world that isnt going to happen in a retail market place and we already do it of sorts in the Custom Install world with brands or installer writing API's for the likes of C4 to control a Sky Q box.
One was a virtual training company set up by software developers and the other was an online gaming business.
All-in-one remotes have become reduntant to most households as decent built-in streaming services and HDMI-CEC connected audio have taken the requirement for multiple remotes away. It is only the media/cinema rooms and more complex AV installations that require more.
As VEX said, Sofabaton seems to be one of the most promising for the home enthusiast, but it is a while off.
Before that there was Neeo, which Control4 bought out and it became a Custom Install product.
rxe said:
I would not be touching any of this stuff, even with someone else’s 10ft pole.
Interoperability is a big thing right now and will be solved by the device vendors - it’s already happening with the likes of Alexa and Apple home. If it works for them, then the APIs exist for it to work with anything else. The idea of buying an integration platform (with hardware!) that will age faster than the products it is controlling seems …. odd…. It is probably why Logitech has bailed from this market.
As an example - here is the API spec for my M10
https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020...
I haven’t bothered to look on GitHub, but there is probably a python implementation already.
Someone else here said you'd just discounted 99.9% of people in the room. I agree with that, but for very different reasons. Interoperability is a big thing right now and will be solved by the device vendors - it’s already happening with the likes of Alexa and Apple home. If it works for them, then the APIs exist for it to work with anything else. The idea of buying an integration platform (with hardware!) that will age faster than the products it is controlling seems …. odd…. It is probably why Logitech has bailed from this market.
As an example - here is the API spec for my M10
https://nadelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020...
I haven’t bothered to look on GitHub, but there is probably a python implementation already.
The APIs are a great tool but nothing that new. There have been other ways to to do this for a while; so why aren't we looking at a world where some app on a smart phone or tablet pulls everything together seamlessly?
The answer comes down to one word: Design.
It's the missing element from all the controller products that have hit the direct-to-enduser market. It has been Harmony's Achilles heel too.
Without good design, the APIs or the Java script or the RS232 or the IR Hex codes are just a pile of digital bricks. It's the architect's skill in interpreting the user's needs and then designing a space that balances the requirements for simplicity and intuitive layout with the power to control a whole system comprised of several disparate devices. Done well, its a beautiful thing.
Harmony was clever in lifting the burden of IR code capture and button layout from the enduser's shoulders. However, in doing that it also required a significant design compromise. Rather than building individual houses each to a client's specific wishes they ended up building identikit houses; all based on the same design.
Sure, you could have the door painted a different colour and specify the carpets and curtains, but if you wanted a bigger kitchen or en suites for the kids rooms then you were out of luck. The house was built a certain way and there wasn't much scope for change, and no option to remodel after either.
Designing the interface of a remote is both a science and an art. Employing science alone - be it APIs or Hex code - isn't enough to make something beautiful that works and is a joy to use.
Lucid_AV said:
Someone else here said you'd just discounted 99.9% of people in the room. I agree with that, but for very different reasons.
The APIs are a great tool but nothing that new. There have been other ways to to do this for a while; so why aren't we looking at a world where some app on a smart phone or tablet pulls everything together seamlessly?
The answer comes down to one word: Design.
It's the missing element from all the controller products that have hit the direct-to-enduser market. It has been Harmony's Achilles heel too.
Without good design, the APIs or the Java script or the RS232 or the IR Hex codes are just a pile of digital bricks. It's the architect's skill in interpreting the user's needs and then designing a space that balances the requirements for simplicity and intuitive layout with the power to control a whole system comprised of several disparate devices. Done well, its a beautiful thing.
Harmony was clever in lifting the burden of IR code capture and button layout from the enduser's shoulders. However, in doing that it also required a significant design compromise. Rather than building individual houses each to a client's specific wishes they ended up building identikit houses; all based on the same design.
Sure, you could have the door painted a different colour and specify the carpets and curtains, but if you wanted a bigger kitchen or en suites for the kids rooms then you were out of luck. The house was built a certain way and there wasn't much scope for change, and no option to remodel after either.
Designing the interface of a remote is both a science and an art. Employing science alone - be it APIs or Hex code - isn't enough to make something beautiful that works and is a joy to use.
The most beautiful thing is the thing that isn’t there. I’ve never seen a Pronto device, so I looked them up. Can you imagine anyone under the age of 30 using that without laughing and posting their “vintage experience” on Instagram? The APIs are a great tool but nothing that new. There have been other ways to to do this for a while; so why aren't we looking at a world where some app on a smart phone or tablet pulls everything together seamlessly?
The answer comes down to one word: Design.
It's the missing element from all the controller products that have hit the direct-to-enduser market. It has been Harmony's Achilles heel too.
Without good design, the APIs or the Java script or the RS232 or the IR Hex codes are just a pile of digital bricks. It's the architect's skill in interpreting the user's needs and then designing a space that balances the requirements for simplicity and intuitive layout with the power to control a whole system comprised of several disparate devices. Done well, its a beautiful thing.
Harmony was clever in lifting the burden of IR code capture and button layout from the enduser's shoulders. However, in doing that it also required a significant design compromise. Rather than building individual houses each to a client's specific wishes they ended up building identikit houses; all based on the same design.
Sure, you could have the door painted a different colour and specify the carpets and curtains, but if you wanted a bigger kitchen or en suites for the kids rooms then you were out of luck. The house was built a certain way and there wasn't much scope for change, and no option to remodel after either.
Designing the interface of a remote is both a science and an art. Employing science alone - be it APIs or Hex code - isn't enough to make something beautiful that works and is a joy to use.
Pretty much anything you buy these days is network connected. It’s pretty hard to buy a remotely high end TV without an RJ45 in the back (and/or Wifi) - the smart TV features demand that. It’s also pretty hard to buy something that is not integrated with Alexa and/or similar voice devices. This is all (technically) powered by APIs to the devices themselves, which gives a level of interoperability that is massively improved over something that is only 5 years old.
Would I want some remote device cluttering up the room that needs programming, gets lost, runs out of battery, and doesn’t match the decor I’ve just changed, or would I prefer to walk into the room and say “Computer, play <insert movie of your choice> “ which sticks the film on, switches the surround sound system on and dims the lights.
Is this stuff easy today? Not always. But Amazon + Google are literally pouring billions into their own code, and their ecosystem partners to make it a no-brainer over the next few years.
rxe said:
The most beautiful thing is the thing that isn’t there. I’ve never seen a Pronto device, so I looked them up. Can you imagine anyone under the age of 30 using that without laughing and posting their “vintage experience” on Instagram?
Pretty much anything you buy these days is network connected. It’s pretty hard to buy a remotely high end TV without an RJ45 in the back (and/or Wifi) - the smart TV features demand that. It’s also pretty hard to buy something that is not integrated with Alexa and/or similar voice devices. This is all (technically) powered by APIs to the devices themselves, which gives a level of interoperability that is massively improved over something that is only 5 years old.
Would I want some remote device cluttering up the room that needs programming, gets lost, runs out of battery, and doesn’t match the decor I’ve just changed, or would I prefer to walk into the room and say “Computer, play <insert movie of your choice> “ which sticks the film on, switches the surround sound system on and dims the lights.
Is this stuff easy today? Not always. But Amazon + Google are literally pouring billions into their own code, and their ecosystem partners to make it a no-brainer over the next few years.
That's a very you-centric answer, though. I'm not under 30, have kit that doesn't conform to Amazon or Google's standards (and otherwise have no need to change) and don't fit your simple use-case above.Pretty much anything you buy these days is network connected. It’s pretty hard to buy a remotely high end TV without an RJ45 in the back (and/or Wifi) - the smart TV features demand that. It’s also pretty hard to buy something that is not integrated with Alexa and/or similar voice devices. This is all (technically) powered by APIs to the devices themselves, which gives a level of interoperability that is massively improved over something that is only 5 years old.
Would I want some remote device cluttering up the room that needs programming, gets lost, runs out of battery, and doesn’t match the decor I’ve just changed, or would I prefer to walk into the room and say “Computer, play <insert movie of your choice> “ which sticks the film on, switches the surround sound system on and dims the lights.
Is this stuff easy today? Not always. But Amazon + Google are literally pouring billions into their own code, and their ecosystem partners to make it a no-brainer over the next few years.
The current setup has lasted for over a decade, and in that time I've had to re-programme it twice. Once when the original installer disappeared without finishing the job, and once recently when I changed an amp.
VEX - I'll send you a PM.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes it can. The challenge with these things is that the complexity of the device is increasing exponentially. 20 years ago, my amplifier had a volume knob and a thing that changed the inputs. Now my amplifier has embedded Spotify, can stream my “local” music from my NAS and can talk to a bunch of other players in the house. These are all features that people want, so the vendors compete on adding more, but it means the interface turns into a rat’s nest of options, and the use cases for them are extremely varied.
Take a simple example. I might walk into my kitchen and want Radio 4 on. “Alexa, play Radio 4” is a good option here. If I want to fiddle with the volume, it depends. A knob on the device might be a good option, a button on a remote might be a good option, or voice might be a good option. However, changing the volume is something I do a lot of, so I want all the options. What I’ve actually done is preset the device so that any station will come on at the volume level that is right 99% of the time. An alternative scenario is walking into the kitchen, crashing out in the comfy chair and trawling my music collection for inspiration. I want album art, I want to be able to look at an artist and select an album. In this case, the best option is the app on my iPad. I could sit there saying “Alexa, play blah” but it is complex, and to be honest, I probably don’t know the name of the track. I’m not aware of any “automation” system that can allow me to do this.
What’s really important is that my wife uses the devices in a completely different way to me. The children - different again. As far as they are concerned, the TV is some weird computer with a big screen that is strangely attractive to adults. They tend to consume content on a tablet, and occasionally cast it to the TV screen. Music is all on the Spotify app on their phone, which seamlessly picks up the music devices in the house.
The point here is that the underlying APIs to these devices allow a variety of control paths. Yes, my amp works with Alexa out of the box. I could use it that way, or I could use its app, I could use the touch panel on the front, I could use a 3rd party control system or I could lash together 1000 lines of python and build something myself. (Building your own voice assistant is remarkably easy, my eldest got lights and music under voice control on a local device as a school project).
I am simply trying to explain why I suspect Logitech exited this market - lashing together “unified controllers” is distinctly legacy when faced with the rate of change in the device market. Outside the core market of geeky blokes (not being rude, I’m a geeky bloke), it isn’’t an attractive option. If I said to my wife “here’s a remote control for you to lose in the kitchen, if you press 4, then radio 4 comes on”, she’d beat me over the head with it.
Again, I'll say what has been said above. This is your view based on what you want, not what the market or people in general are asking for. Out of the hundreds of clients we have, I can count on one hand those who want to and do use voice control, whether it be Siri or Alexa to control anything. That's not because they don't have the capacity, its because they don't like or want that technology.
Generally, our customers want ease of use and reliability so, in your example of controlling audio in a kitchen on a pre-set, would automate this through a lighting scene. When the kitchen is entered and the keypad is pressed to turn on the lights, their favourite radio station will play at the selected volume. Alternatively, they're happy to use their Ipad, iphone or touch screen .... not via voice recognition. Voice recognition has its own draw back as I'm sure you're well aware of ... as well as security worries.
This is very much seen as the consumer end of the market, which myself and other pro installers really couldn't give much time or care to.
The Pronto was a pro product which was great in its day ... Logitech was always a cheap consumer product which was always destined for failure.
The technology you seem to suggest requires technical partnerships and relationships to exist. From experience, this isn't a simple path to a trouble free system ... each manufacturer has their own interests at heart. Someone gets bought by Apple, Apple update the firmware and Alexa is disabled and its now Siri based ... but the customer doesn't use Apple ... hates Apple in fact. Its a minefield but simply dismissing integration and control by a more intelligent system is a very much your opinion.
Control systems have their places ... you seem like the sort of chap who thinks, and probably can build his own system which is absolutely fine, for you. But then try rolling 'your system' out to 500 clients and see how unfit for purpose and how many support calls you get on a daily and weekly basis. I guess you'd be out of business pretty quickly, swamped with support issues and unable to keep everyone up and running. Because it will break ...
The OP's requirements are a great example of when a control system is required. But lets say the room has a projector, motorised screen, Sky Box, Blu ray player, AV receiver, motorised blinds, Apple TV, lighting. Oh and the AVR and video sources are centrally based with a HDMI matrix, so a mix of mainly IP but some IR controlled devices. Unless you are going to sit with 8 + remotes, life is going to be very awkward controlling these devices to create the experience you want. A control system will integrate all of these devices ... whether it be Crestron, C4, Savant etc.
There are of course places for all devices - no one (I know) uses a remote control to control their music, iphone/ipad/touch screen or keypad - remotes are reserved for rooms with TV - no one uses an iPad to control their TV, sometimes a dedicated touch screen is used but these interfaces create a better experience when searching for music, viewing CCTV, setting heating/lighting etc.
Generally, our customers want ease of use and reliability so, in your example of controlling audio in a kitchen on a pre-set, would automate this through a lighting scene. When the kitchen is entered and the keypad is pressed to turn on the lights, their favourite radio station will play at the selected volume. Alternatively, they're happy to use their Ipad, iphone or touch screen .... not via voice recognition. Voice recognition has its own draw back as I'm sure you're well aware of ... as well as security worries.
This is very much seen as the consumer end of the market, which myself and other pro installers really couldn't give much time or care to.
The Pronto was a pro product which was great in its day ... Logitech was always a cheap consumer product which was always destined for failure.
The technology you seem to suggest requires technical partnerships and relationships to exist. From experience, this isn't a simple path to a trouble free system ... each manufacturer has their own interests at heart. Someone gets bought by Apple, Apple update the firmware and Alexa is disabled and its now Siri based ... but the customer doesn't use Apple ... hates Apple in fact. Its a minefield but simply dismissing integration and control by a more intelligent system is a very much your opinion.
Control systems have their places ... you seem like the sort of chap who thinks, and probably can build his own system which is absolutely fine, for you. But then try rolling 'your system' out to 500 clients and see how unfit for purpose and how many support calls you get on a daily and weekly basis. I guess you'd be out of business pretty quickly, swamped with support issues and unable to keep everyone up and running. Because it will break ...
The OP's requirements are a great example of when a control system is required. But lets say the room has a projector, motorised screen, Sky Box, Blu ray player, AV receiver, motorised blinds, Apple TV, lighting. Oh and the AVR and video sources are centrally based with a HDMI matrix, so a mix of mainly IP but some IR controlled devices. Unless you are going to sit with 8 + remotes, life is going to be very awkward controlling these devices to create the experience you want. A control system will integrate all of these devices ... whether it be Crestron, C4, Savant etc.
There are of course places for all devices - no one (I know) uses a remote control to control their music, iphone/ipad/touch screen or keypad - remotes are reserved for rooms with TV - no one uses an iPad to control their TV, sometimes a dedicated touch screen is used but these interfaces create a better experience when searching for music, viewing CCTV, setting heating/lighting etc.
I also await with baited breath 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Even 20 years ago when I had a DVD player hooked into a Yamaha AV amp, pressing play on the DVD player resulted in pictures on the telly and sound though the speakers….
I’m happy to disagree, but IMO the interoperability is coming fast. My experience of high end control systems is limited to friends who have bought houses with them installed - without exception, they’ve been ripped out and not replaced, either because they were dated or simply were incompatible with it the lifestyles of the new occupants.
Edit - OK, just for you, a quick bit of research. I’m assuming that all your devices work with Alexa (which will be increasingly true, in fact impossible to avoid - I’ve even managed to find some motorised blinds that work with Alexa, who knew?).
Step 1 - build an Alexa routine that contains the tasks you want. Basically you’re stringing commands together across a range of arbitrary devices. So the routine called “horror film” closes the blinds, drops the lights to a dim red, turns the AV source to whatever you want and starts playing
Step 2 - trigger that routine from your phone or (if you really don’t want to use a phone, you can attach it to an Echo button, I’m sure there is something better out there. ), or just use voice. It looks like you can trigger this from pretty much any smart home interface.
You will of course argue that your devices do not work with Alexa or similar. My view is that within 5 years, it will be almost impossible to buy a device with any degree of smartness does doesn’t work with all of these services.
Edited by rxe on Wednesday 17th November 15:01
20 years ago, people rented physical discs (and even tapes!) from Blockbuster. If you’d proposed 4K streaming then, you’d have been laughed at. TB scale hard drives were £1000 and how the hell would it work over the broadband of the day? The idea of having a computer in an AV device would be seen as bizarre.
Roll on 20 years. Physical discs barely exist. Adding a compute capability to a device has negligible cost, if nothing else, it is a lot easier to define interfaces in software than hardware - which is why cars no longer have buttons for stuff. Interoperability is all software defined now, with some standards that are being driven by a group of tech companies. We appear to be already at a position where I could buy a set of motorised blinds, light bulbs, motion sensor and a streaming amp that have native interoperability, right out of the box.
Roll on 20 years. Physical discs barely exist. Adding a compute capability to a device has negligible cost, if nothing else, it is a lot easier to define interfaces in software than hardware - which is why cars no longer have buttons for stuff. Interoperability is all software defined now, with some standards that are being driven by a group of tech companies. We appear to be already at a position where I could buy a set of motorised blinds, light bulbs, motion sensor and a streaming amp that have native interoperability, right out of the box.
Don’t worry about rudeness, challenge is good….
I am in London at the moment, so slightly bereft of devices to play with. However, using an Alexa routine, I have managed to set something up that changes the colour temperature of the lights in my kitchen and plays Radio 4 on the hifi. It literally took two minutes, and I did the whole thing on an iPad. I can either control it with voice, or initiate it manually on the app. If I had the “works with Alexa” electric blinds I found earlier, then I could easily integrate that into the routine as well.
That is interoperability. On its own, a light bulb has nothing to do with a hifi - after all, what on Earth does the state of a light bulb (on or off) have to do with music? However, with absolutely trivial effort, I can link the two in order to do something useful. If that is no longer useful in the future, then I can undo that trivial effort and rebuild it in a different way. The interoperability is software defined.
I’ll give you a really pedestrian example. Say that 10 years ago you wanted to connect lights in some way, so that you could turn all the lights in your massive kitchen/diner in one go, and control their intensity. You’d have three options:
1) Hard code the layout in the wiring in your walls. One switch and/or dimmer would control the lot. Very expensive to do, and impossible to change
2) Have some sort of software defined allocation of switches to lights using some clever hardware. A mate bought a place with this, it lasted 2 months before it was ripped out..
3) Put some clever hardware interfaces into the lights power cable and then control those with a separate hardware device. Now you’ve got flexibility, but it would cost, and you’re still tied to some device that looks like it belongs in an updated Southfork Ranch.
Funnily enough, I have this capability. Mine goes even further - I can stand outside the house and make it do a Knight Rider impression if I really want to. If I want to light up the house from abroad to assist in CCTV resolution, I can do it. The whole thing is software defined, no additional hardware, all the intelligence is in the bulbs. I can control them with voice, buttons, switches in the wall, or a schedule. Mostly they are controlled by a schedule. If I could be bothered (I can’t), creating a morning routine that wakes me up, turns the lights on and starts Radio 4 in the kitchen would be a whole 2 minutes to build.
The journey look like this:
- Device sellers want to sell devices, but they are hard to use due to feature complexity. The most successful devices will have massive feature sets and simple control interfaces
- Every device will have a set of APIs that integrate to something like Alexa. Today, the front end is Alexa, tomorrow it may be something different, but the important bit is the underlying APIs. You will not be able to buy a smart device without this capability embedded in the near future.
- Tying them together in software will be simple (that’s the whole point of the “works with Alexa” certification). It’s worth noting that the IOT/IFTTT mob are doing all this already, but that is well off the geeky end of the scale. It will become very mainstream when it is easier to do - so rather than dicking about with Shelley relays or whatever, you simply build a “macro” in an app.
I am in London at the moment, so slightly bereft of devices to play with. However, using an Alexa routine, I have managed to set something up that changes the colour temperature of the lights in my kitchen and plays Radio 4 on the hifi. It literally took two minutes, and I did the whole thing on an iPad. I can either control it with voice, or initiate it manually on the app. If I had the “works with Alexa” electric blinds I found earlier, then I could easily integrate that into the routine as well.
That is interoperability. On its own, a light bulb has nothing to do with a hifi - after all, what on Earth does the state of a light bulb (on or off) have to do with music? However, with absolutely trivial effort, I can link the two in order to do something useful. If that is no longer useful in the future, then I can undo that trivial effort and rebuild it in a different way. The interoperability is software defined.
I’ll give you a really pedestrian example. Say that 10 years ago you wanted to connect lights in some way, so that you could turn all the lights in your massive kitchen/diner in one go, and control their intensity. You’d have three options:
1) Hard code the layout in the wiring in your walls. One switch and/or dimmer would control the lot. Very expensive to do, and impossible to change
2) Have some sort of software defined allocation of switches to lights using some clever hardware. A mate bought a place with this, it lasted 2 months before it was ripped out..
3) Put some clever hardware interfaces into the lights power cable and then control those with a separate hardware device. Now you’ve got flexibility, but it would cost, and you’re still tied to some device that looks like it belongs in an updated Southfork Ranch.
Funnily enough, I have this capability. Mine goes even further - I can stand outside the house and make it do a Knight Rider impression if I really want to. If I want to light up the house from abroad to assist in CCTV resolution, I can do it. The whole thing is software defined, no additional hardware, all the intelligence is in the bulbs. I can control them with voice, buttons, switches in the wall, or a schedule. Mostly they are controlled by a schedule. If I could be bothered (I can’t), creating a morning routine that wakes me up, turns the lights on and starts Radio 4 in the kitchen would be a whole 2 minutes to build.
The journey look like this:
- Device sellers want to sell devices, but they are hard to use due to feature complexity. The most successful devices will have massive feature sets and simple control interfaces
- Every device will have a set of APIs that integrate to something like Alexa. Today, the front end is Alexa, tomorrow it may be something different, but the important bit is the underlying APIs. You will not be able to buy a smart device without this capability embedded in the near future.
- Tying them together in software will be simple (that’s the whole point of the “works with Alexa” certification). It’s worth noting that the IOT/IFTTT mob are doing all this already, but that is well off the geeky end of the scale. It will become very mainstream when it is easier to do - so rather than dicking about with Shelley relays or whatever, you simply build a “macro” in an app.
rxe said:
Don’t worry about rudeness, challenge is good….
I am in London at the moment, so slightly bereft of devices to play with. However, using an Alexa routine, I have managed to set something up that changes the colour temperature of the lights in my kitchen and plays Radio 4 on the hifi. It literally took two minutes, and I did the whole thing on an iPad. I can either control it with voice, or initiate it manually on the app. If I had the “works with Alexa” electric blinds I found earlier, then I could easily integrate that into the routine as well.
That is interoperability. On its own, a light bulb has nothing to do with a hifi - after all, what on Earth does the state of a light bulb (on or off) have to do with music? However, with absolutely trivial effort, I can link the two in order to do something useful. If that is no longer useful in the future, then I can undo that trivial effort and rebuild it in a different way. The interoperability is software defined.
I’ll give you a really pedestrian example. Say that 10 years ago you wanted to connect lights in some way, so that you could turn all the lights in your massive kitchen/diner in one go, and control their intensity. You’d have three options:
1) Hard code the layout in the wiring in your walls. One switch and/or dimmer would control the lot. Very expensive to do, and impossible to change
2) Have some sort of software defined allocation of switches to lights using some clever hardware. A mate bought a place with this, it lasted 2 months before it was ripped out..
3) Put some clever hardware interfaces into the lights power cable and then control those with a separate hardware device. Now you’ve got flexibility, but it would cost, and you’re still tied to some device that looks like it belongs in an updated Southfork Ranch.
Funnily enough, I have this capability. Mine goes even further - I can stand outside the house and make it do a Knight Rider impression if I really want to. If I want to light up the house from abroad to assist in CCTV resolution, I can do it. The whole thing is software defined, no additional hardware, all the intelligence is in the bulbs. I can control them with voice, buttons, switches in the wall, or a schedule. Mostly they are controlled by a schedule. If I could be bothered (I can’t), creating a morning routine that wakes me up, turns the lights on and starts Radio 4 in the kitchen would be a whole 2 minutes to build.
The journey look like this:
- Device sellers want to sell devices, but they are hard to use due to feature complexity. The most successful devices will have massive feature sets and simple control interfaces
- Every device will have a set of APIs that integrate to something like Alexa. Today, the front end is Alexa, tomorrow it may be something different, but the important bit is the underlying APIs. You will not be able to buy a smart device without this capability embedded in the near future.
- Tying them together in software will be simple (that’s the whole point of the “works with Alexa” certification). It’s worth noting that the IOT/IFTTT mob are doing all this already, but that is well off the geeky end of the scale. It will become very mainstream when it is easier to do - so rather than dicking about with Shelley relays or whatever, you simply build a “macro” in an app.
Its been said on multiple occasions ... Alexa is not what every customer wants. Ok, I get you're a techy but you're a DIY'r ... you do not represent 'the whole market' I am afraid. Adding the odd bit of smart lighting is all well and good, but what you seem to be missing is the layer of properties that cannot operate without a 'system' due to the size & complexity. The type of products you refer to are mass market and are not transferable to the pro install client base. I am in London at the moment, so slightly bereft of devices to play with. However, using an Alexa routine, I have managed to set something up that changes the colour temperature of the lights in my kitchen and plays Radio 4 on the hifi. It literally took two minutes, and I did the whole thing on an iPad. I can either control it with voice, or initiate it manually on the app. If I had the “works with Alexa” electric blinds I found earlier, then I could easily integrate that into the routine as well.
That is interoperability. On its own, a light bulb has nothing to do with a hifi - after all, what on Earth does the state of a light bulb (on or off) have to do with music? However, with absolutely trivial effort, I can link the two in order to do something useful. If that is no longer useful in the future, then I can undo that trivial effort and rebuild it in a different way. The interoperability is software defined.
I’ll give you a really pedestrian example. Say that 10 years ago you wanted to connect lights in some way, so that you could turn all the lights in your massive kitchen/diner in one go, and control their intensity. You’d have three options:
1) Hard code the layout in the wiring in your walls. One switch and/or dimmer would control the lot. Very expensive to do, and impossible to change
2) Have some sort of software defined allocation of switches to lights using some clever hardware. A mate bought a place with this, it lasted 2 months before it was ripped out..
3) Put some clever hardware interfaces into the lights power cable and then control those with a separate hardware device. Now you’ve got flexibility, but it would cost, and you’re still tied to some device that looks like it belongs in an updated Southfork Ranch.
Funnily enough, I have this capability. Mine goes even further - I can stand outside the house and make it do a Knight Rider impression if I really want to. If I want to light up the house from abroad to assist in CCTV resolution, I can do it. The whole thing is software defined, no additional hardware, all the intelligence is in the bulbs. I can control them with voice, buttons, switches in the wall, or a schedule. Mostly they are controlled by a schedule. If I could be bothered (I can’t), creating a morning routine that wakes me up, turns the lights on and starts Radio 4 in the kitchen would be a whole 2 minutes to build.
The journey look like this:
- Device sellers want to sell devices, but they are hard to use due to feature complexity. The most successful devices will have massive feature sets and simple control interfaces
- Every device will have a set of APIs that integrate to something like Alexa. Today, the front end is Alexa, tomorrow it may be something different, but the important bit is the underlying APIs. You will not be able to buy a smart device without this capability embedded in the near future.
- Tying them together in software will be simple (that’s the whole point of the “works with Alexa” certification). It’s worth noting that the IOT/IFTTT mob are doing all this already, but that is well off the geeky end of the scale. It will become very mainstream when it is easier to do - so rather than dicking about with Shelley relays or whatever, you simply build a “macro” in an app.
I get that the masses want what you want ... average 4 bed home with a small network (maybe operating from a single router with wifi) ... locally based devices. But what about a 6/7/8 bed property across 4 floors, with a basement, underfloor heating, aircon, alarm, audio distribution 16 zones, 12 zones of TV distribution 4K (4 x Sky Q, 2 x Apple TV), alarm, CCTV, gate entry, blinds, lighting control, powered windows, locks etc. Nothing off the shelf available to Joe Public will integrate all of these systems. You'd need to have I'd say at least 10 separate apps to do this ... is this really what you'd want over an integrated system? I know not everyone has this type/size of requirements .... most of my customers do and I can assure you, if I presented them with 10-15 apps on their phone, they wouldn't do business with me.
You have Philips Hue .... how many lamps? What size is your property? Many of my clients have homes with 100 - 150 lighting circuits ... that could be 250 - 300 fittings ... this, as you know is not scalable with the likes of Philips Hue. Often we're down the route of DALI dimming .... not compatible with Hue ...
Interested to hear what system your mate had and the size/circuits/switches? Intelligent lighting is by far THE most reliable part of the world of smart ... Crestron give lifetime warranties, Lutron up to 8 years ... I've never heard of anyone taking out a lighting system unless its been lashed together by a DIY'r/electrician with no experience/client with a lemonade budget (see Lightwave RF etc).
Apologies - had a busy few days.
To answer the urgent question first … I’m sure I could do it with a set of Alexa enabled devices, just as I can do it with my example in London. Could I do it with a random TV that is 10 years old - of course not, the interface doesn’t exist. My point is that this is going to become the default for every new TV (and other electronic device) that people buy. You don’t need to take my word for it - here is the CEO of Logitech on why they exited this business:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/10/22377015/logite...
On to the wider point - sure, there will always be houses where some high end system is needed. If you really want to have some relationship between your air con and your TV, I’m sure there will be a market for that. However, that market will inevitably be made narrower by increasing levels of integration in the devices. Already, you can do things with lights that you could only do with an expensive load of integration a decade ago - I have LIFX not Hue, haven’t found any scalability issues at about 90 devices in one house. Maybe at 255+ it will break, but I don’t have 256 lights, and I’d just create a “lighting 2” sub-net if it did break.
I know very little about my mate’s lighting system, other than it was in the house when he bought it, and it was Italian. Italians and electronics doesn’t seem to be a good combination, but it was a proper install, because he kept getting the installer back to fix it. It all ended with a fantastic comment from his wife which was “when I walk into the kitchen and press the switch, I just want the lights to come in the f
king kitchen, not the dining room, the upstairs bog etc”.
Another mate spent a fortune around 2004 putting multi zone TV and audio in his house. It was amazing HD/1080p, and you could watch different channels in each bedroom. You could select whatever you wanted to play on the sound system in pretty much every room. Really a technological tour de force, there was a great rack of kit with blinkenlights all over it. Unfortunately 15 years later, his kids want their own Spotify playlist on a local Bluetooth system, and they prefer watching Netflix on an iPad because they can start watching something on the journey home and carry on at home. The sound system sucks because it can’t handle FLAC and the whole lot is pretty much unused. He can’t bear to sling it, because it cost rather a lot. He won’t replace it because he’s realised that the use cases for different channels in every room are somewhat limited - it is essentially ‘I have 4 sets of friends to stay, and they all want to watch telly in their bedrooms” - which is weird.
The real end goal is sufficient intelligence in your house so that you don’t need to worry about the interface so much. Ideally you’d want a system that learned what you do, and simply did it for you. Having it do the wrong thing would be an exceptional event. As an example, it is reasonably easy to geofence your phone so that the systems in your house know you’ve gone to work and do the right thing. Hopefully, you’d have a deeper layer of intelligence - it would know the difference between “gone to work” and “gone on holiday”. If you bothered to look, you’d realise that the house had learned the cooling profile of your UFH and had turned off the heating the night before you went on holiday, then turned in on again the day before you came back. But, in most cases you’d never look, the house would simply be at the right temperature.
To answer the urgent question first … I’m sure I could do it with a set of Alexa enabled devices, just as I can do it with my example in London. Could I do it with a random TV that is 10 years old - of course not, the interface doesn’t exist. My point is that this is going to become the default for every new TV (and other electronic device) that people buy. You don’t need to take my word for it - here is the CEO of Logitech on why they exited this business:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/10/22377015/logite...
On to the wider point - sure, there will always be houses where some high end system is needed. If you really want to have some relationship between your air con and your TV, I’m sure there will be a market for that. However, that market will inevitably be made narrower by increasing levels of integration in the devices. Already, you can do things with lights that you could only do with an expensive load of integration a decade ago - I have LIFX not Hue, haven’t found any scalability issues at about 90 devices in one house. Maybe at 255+ it will break, but I don’t have 256 lights, and I’d just create a “lighting 2” sub-net if it did break.
I know very little about my mate’s lighting system, other than it was in the house when he bought it, and it was Italian. Italians and electronics doesn’t seem to be a good combination, but it was a proper install, because he kept getting the installer back to fix it. It all ended with a fantastic comment from his wife which was “when I walk into the kitchen and press the switch, I just want the lights to come in the f
king kitchen, not the dining room, the upstairs bog etc”. Another mate spent a fortune around 2004 putting multi zone TV and audio in his house. It was amazing HD/1080p, and you could watch different channels in each bedroom. You could select whatever you wanted to play on the sound system in pretty much every room. Really a technological tour de force, there was a great rack of kit with blinkenlights all over it. Unfortunately 15 years later, his kids want their own Spotify playlist on a local Bluetooth system, and they prefer watching Netflix on an iPad because they can start watching something on the journey home and carry on at home. The sound system sucks because it can’t handle FLAC and the whole lot is pretty much unused. He can’t bear to sling it, because it cost rather a lot. He won’t replace it because he’s realised that the use cases for different channels in every room are somewhat limited - it is essentially ‘I have 4 sets of friends to stay, and they all want to watch telly in their bedrooms” - which is weird.
The real end goal is sufficient intelligence in your house so that you don’t need to worry about the interface so much. Ideally you’d want a system that learned what you do, and simply did it for you. Having it do the wrong thing would be an exceptional event. As an example, it is reasonably easy to geofence your phone so that the systems in your house know you’ve gone to work and do the right thing. Hopefully, you’d have a deeper layer of intelligence - it would know the difference between “gone to work” and “gone on holiday”. If you bothered to look, you’d realise that the house had learned the cooling profile of your UFH and had turned off the heating the night before you went on holiday, then turned in on again the day before you came back. But, in most cases you’d never look, the house would simply be at the right temperature.
I think the only thing we disagree on is software vs. hardware integration. You air-con and your hi-if will never have a unified interface because they do different things, but they have a set of APIs, so someone simply needs to write an abstraction standard, and suddenly the concepts of “on vs. off”, volume and time are unified. This is essentially what Amazon are doing with Alexa. You don’t know or care what the underling API is, but you know that every device in your house with a volume control can be manipulated by a single button/voice command/piece of automation.
The intelligence bit is really, really hard, but again (IMO!) it will be not be in your house at all. What knows that I’m off to Spain in a few weeks? My CH controller doesn’t even understand dates, so it doesn’t have a clue. American Express know, BA knows, Outlook knows. What could process that knowledge and infer useful stuff from it? Something in AWS in all likelihood. The privacy implications are “challenging”, but I suspect it will be so useful that everyone uses it. At the end of the day, the only thing that your house sees is a request to the CH controller to go down to the frost setting for 2 weeks
The intelligence bit is really, really hard, but again (IMO!) it will be not be in your house at all. What knows that I’m off to Spain in a few weeks? My CH controller doesn’t even understand dates, so it doesn’t have a clue. American Express know, BA knows, Outlook knows. What could process that knowledge and infer useful stuff from it? Something in AWS in all likelihood. The privacy implications are “challenging”, but I suspect it will be so useful that everyone uses it. At the end of the day, the only thing that your house sees is a request to the CH controller to go down to the frost setting for 2 weeks
Gassing Station | Home Cinema & Hi-Fi | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff