Harry's Garage - YouTube
Discussion
Pistom said:
Tesla used to be a clear winner but they seem to be doing little more than slashing prices whilst the market is getting increasingly competitive.
It's Chinese tech which is really impressing - it's not so long ago that many were smirking at the Rover 75 knock offs and tracing the progress from then - you have to wonder where Tesla will be in even just a couple of years.
The big win for them still is the charging network together with the fact that purchasing decisions are more and more being done with a spreadsheet rather than a walk around a dealership but once tech and price overtakes them - they really need to offer a lot more than currently.
I don't know about that. Had a look at a few MGs, the joke is they're washing machines/microwaves/other white goods but they really do feel like they're made of the same stuff. They're like a statement that youve given up on life.It's Chinese tech which is really impressing - it's not so long ago that many were smirking at the Rover 75 knock offs and tracing the progress from then - you have to wonder where Tesla will be in even just a couple of years.
The big win for them still is the charging network together with the fact that purchasing decisions are more and more being done with a spreadsheet rather than a walk around a dealership but once tech and price overtakes them - they really need to offer a lot more than currently.
Doofus said:
Because EVs are generally so expensive, most families who want one have to make the decision to have only one car. If EVs were small and cheap then people could have one of those for the daily grind and something else for longer distances, or carrying passengers (something most drivers do very rarely), or going for an entertaining drive.
Our EV is £200 per month, I doubt you can run a brand new car cheaper. It does 95% of our journeys and 90% of our miles, ie the daily grind. So we can afford to run a larger car for longer journeys and family trips (rather than using a 30mpg car for everything) and makes me appreciate a toy for weekends.trumpton7291 said:
Not to mention cars were previously status symbols but an EV now just says 'cost conscious' in the same way as a diesel driver did in the 1990s or a clear company purchase purely for the tax subsidies. Poor b
ds quite frankly, to be pitied rather than envied unfortunately.
Not necessarily. For many people who don't care about cars an EV can be better for their needs. If you can charge at home then many people see them as more convenience, generally being quieter and more refined an often offering better performance etc.ds quite frankly, to be pitied rather than envied unfortunately. They aren't for me, but I can see the appeal over an ICE. Most ICE cars are humdrum crap and the "cost" thing Could be argued against just about any car where there is a more expensive, similar product.
Doofus said:
My point is that most manufacturers don't dare make EV's "without any drama". They are trying to pivot their long-held touchpoints into a product which doesn't value them.
EVs need to be small and light to be efficient. Tesla entered the market without any history, so they couod do that, but the other manufacturers are trying to hold onto thier reputational luxury, or performance or whatever, and to do that with any credible range, their only option is bigger batteries which beget bigger cars with greater weight which demand bigger batteries and so on.
EVs are not our only future, and at the moment, I think synthetic fuels are coming up on the rail. If that happens, then manufacturers will be able to continue to build their aspirational fast, or luxurious, or 8 seat, or convertible or sporty cars with ICEs, and also the new small, simple, efficient BEVs for urban use.
Because EVs are generally so expensive, most families who want one have to make the decision to have only one car. If EVs were small and cheap then people could have one of those for the daily grind and something else for longer distances, or carrying passengers (something most drivers do very rarely), or going for an entertaining drive.
New EV's a pricey granted, but lightly used they are an absolute bargain at the minute.EVs need to be small and light to be efficient. Tesla entered the market without any history, so they couod do that, but the other manufacturers are trying to hold onto thier reputational luxury, or performance or whatever, and to do that with any credible range, their only option is bigger batteries which beget bigger cars with greater weight which demand bigger batteries and so on.
EVs are not our only future, and at the moment, I think synthetic fuels are coming up on the rail. If that happens, then manufacturers will be able to continue to build their aspirational fast, or luxurious, or 8 seat, or convertible or sporty cars with ICEs, and also the new small, simple, efficient BEVs for urban use.
Because EVs are generally so expensive, most families who want one have to make the decision to have only one car. If EVs were small and cheap then people could have one of those for the daily grind and something else for longer distances, or carrying passengers (something most drivers do very rarely), or going for an entertaining drive.
For the price of a new Model 3 LR (£50k) you could buy a 2 year old Polestar 2 with all the bells and whistles + a 718 Boxster.
E90_M3Ross said:
Not necessarily. For many people who don't care about cars an EV can be better for their needs. If you can charge at home then many people see them as more convenience, generally being quieter and more refined an often offering better performance etc.
Been running EVs as our family daily for 5 years now and this is exactly how we feel. Life long PH'er who still loves a good ICE cars, but EV's are just so much better at the practical stuff if you can charge at home and aren't doing 250+ mile trips very often.Edited by SWoll on Monday 22 April 21:09
Doofus said:
I think Tesla have got onboard the "EVs are just white goods" bandwagon ahead of the rest of the world. All the others are chasing acceleration times, luxury and recharge speeds.
Once the rest of us else catch up to the notion that EVs only work if they're hugely efficient and purely functional, then Tesla's build quality concerns will be normalised.
I don't support EVs as the answer, and I certainly don't support Elon Musk, but I think he's closer to the paradigm than everyone else.
I think that one genuinely impressive aspect of the whole brand is that they can build almost as cheaply as a Chinese brand, what is obstensively a white goods, stripped down product but with brand cache. Genuine cache rather than gold painted plastics. There are very few cases in history where a brand has managed that. Brand premium and cheap manufacturing. Arguably that is their true advantage over the incumbent, similarly premium/mid level brands. And more intimidating for the incumbents is that Tesla have been able to add quality in recent years while also cutting costs. Plus, for all the additional manufacturing quality of the mainstream competitors it's not as if their products are subsequently lasting years longer. If one considers a modern car to have a 15-20 year lifespan then Tesla's are looking like they won't be far off and even if they get tattier more quickly the compensation is continual upgrades to the software. Once the rest of us else catch up to the notion that EVs only work if they're hugely efficient and purely functional, then Tesla's build quality concerns will be normalised.
I don't support EVs as the answer, and I certainly don't support Elon Musk, but I think he's closer to the paradigm than everyone else.
CLK-GTR said:
I don't know about that. Had a look at a few MGs, the joke is they're washing machines/microwaves/other white goods but they really do feel like they're made of the same stuff. They're like a statement that youve given up on life.
I refer back to my earlier point. Walk around. Look at the average car. The vast majority of people don’t view cars like we do here on PH. Nothing to do with giving up on life, they just have other priorities. No doubt many would consider the money spent herr as utter madness. 
soxboy said:
Doofus said:
Because EVs are generally so expensive, most families who want one have to make the decision to have only one car. If EVs were small and cheap then people could have one of those for the daily grind and something else for longer distances, or carrying passengers (something most drivers do very rarely), or going for an entertaining drive.
Our EV is £200 per month, I doubt you can run a brand new car cheaper. It does 95% of our journeys and 90% of our miles, ie the daily grind. So we can afford to run a larger car for longer journeys and family trips (rather than using a 30mpg car for everything) and makes me appreciate a toy for weekends.Unreal said:
soxboy said:
Doofus said:
Because EVs are generally so expensive, most families who want one have to make the decision to have only one car. If EVs were small and cheap then people could have one of those for the daily grind and something else for longer distances, or carrying passengers (something most drivers do very rarely), or going for an entertaining drive.
Our EV is £200 per month, I doubt you can run a brand new car cheaper. It does 95% of our journeys and 90% of our miles, ie the daily grind. So we can afford to run a larger car for longer journeys and family trips (rather than using a 30mpg car for everything) and makes me appreciate a toy for weekends.That’s all it’s cost for basically 5 years. I did have to buy a £120 headlight a couple years back.
Doofus said:
EVs are not our only future, and at the moment, I think synthetic fuels are coming up on the rail. If that happens, then manufacturers will be able to continue to build their aspirational fast, or luxurious, or 8 seat, or convertible or sporty cars with ICEs, and also the new small, simple, efficient BEVs for urban use.
Normal people will just buy EVs for urban and extra-urban use. The problem I see with selling ICEs in luxury cars is that there won't be enough of them to support a fuelling network. Doofus said:
I think Tesla have got onboard the "EVs are just white goods" bandwagon ahead of the rest of the world. All the others are chasing acceleration times, luxury and recharge speeds.
Once the rest of us else catch up to the notion that EVs only work if they're hugely efficient and purely functional, then Tesla's build quality concerns will be normalised.
I don't support EVs as the answer, and I certainly don't support Elon Musk, but I think he's closer to the paradigm than everyone else.
My mate has Model 3 Performance leased through his company. He travels all over the country in it for work, he's done over fifty thousand miles in it in three and a bit years. It's been completely reliable and costs buttons to charge at home. Once the novelty of the silly acceleration wears off (and it does), what you're left with is a very efficient EV supported by an excellent charging network. It's not a car to get passionate about, it's just a tool for doing a job and it does the job very well. When he changes cars, it will be for another one, but just the regular long range.Once the rest of us else catch up to the notion that EVs only work if they're hugely efficient and purely functional, then Tesla's build quality concerns will be normalised.
I don't support EVs as the answer, and I certainly don't support Elon Musk, but I think he's closer to the paradigm than everyone else.
If I was going EV, it would be a Tesla every time. I just wish it had knobs and buttons that you could use without looking away from the road, and a bloody speedo in front of you.
otolith said:
Doofus said:
EVs are not our only future, and at the moment, I think synthetic fuels are coming up on the rail. If that happens, then manufacturers will be able to continue to build their aspirational fast, or luxurious, or 8 seat, or convertible or sporty cars with ICEs, and also the new small, simple, efficient BEVs for urban use.
Normal people will just buy EVs for urban and extra-urban use. The problem I see with selling ICEs in luxury cars is that there won't be enough of them to support a fuelling network. Normal people will just buy EVs for urban and extra-urban use, yes, but the focus at the moment is performance and range. Somehow we need to break free of those obsessions.
A 1000hp EV is pointless and a list price of £150,000+ is ridiculous.
Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
10000 miles of petrol at 35MPG is £2000, or £167 month. Add annual VED, MOT and maintenance on many a £3k car and you've already got a £200 monthly.10000 miles of electricity on an EV tariff would cost around £200 a year, or 1/10th of the petrol cost at £16.70 a month. £16.70 a month seem reasonable for a new car no if it suits your usage I'd suggest?
otolith said:
Doofus said:
EVs are not our only future, and at the moment, I think synthetic fuels are coming up on the rail. If that happens, then manufacturers will be able to continue to build their aspirational fast, or luxurious, or 8 seat, or convertible or sporty cars with ICEs, and also the new small, simple, efficient BEVs for urban use.
Normal people will just buy EVs for urban and extra-urban use. The problem I see with selling ICEs in luxury cars is that there won't be enough of them to support a fuelling network. SWoll said:
Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
10000 miles of petrol at 35MPG is £2000, or £167 month. Add annual VED, MOT and maintenance on many a £3k car and you've already got a £200 monthly.10000 miles of electricity on an EV tariff would cost around £200 a year, or 1/10th of the petrol cost at £16.70 a month. £16.70 a month seem reasonable for a new car no if it suits your usage I'd suggest?
Doofus said:
The fuelling network already exists. The EV charging network doesn't.
It's in millions of peoples homes, in fact mine is on my drive charging as we speak. And if not, here are England's rapid charger locations.
thegreenhell said:
Wait until EV take up has gained enough traction for the government to start taxing it proportionately to make up for the lost revenue from declining fossil fuel sales. They aren't going to remain cheap to run forever once they start ramping up VED and add in either an energy tax or road pricing.
Probably be a good idea to get one now and take advantage while you can then?SWoll said:
It's in millions of peoples homes, in fact mine is on my drive charging as we speak.
And if not, here are England's rapid charger locations.
That isn't even accurate, zap map has some weird fidelity issues when you zoom out and makes random dead spots. Like Aberystwyth has Superchargers and 18x CCS at the National Library. But it's blank in that view.And if not, here are England's rapid charger locations.
thegreenhell said:
Wait until EV take up has gained enough traction for the government to start taxing it proportionately to make up for the lost revenue from declining fossil fuel sales. They aren't going to remain cheap to run forever once they start ramping up VED and add in either an energy tax or road pricing.
Electric cars will pay VED from 2025 (well, that's the Tory plan). Which will be somewhat bizarre given there's still plenty of £0 and £30 VED ICE cars available. Evanivitch said:
That isn't even accurate, zap map has some weird fidelity issues when you zoom out and makes random dead spots. Like Aberystwyth has Superchargers and 18x CCS at the National Library. But it's blank in that view.
Was going to add that, but TBH didn't see the point of complicating things. 
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