Oi! Derren Brown! NO!

[erdnase]

durbster said:

erdnase said:

I think the ice "trick" is similar to firewalking.. impressive looking, maybe a little uncomfortable at most, but with a bit of motivation, adrenalin, belief and a "you can do it!" attitude (ie, "hypnosis") is perfectly possible.

I think we've already proven that's nonsense.

When some of the biggest and hardest bds I've ever seen are wincing and catching their breath in ice baths I think that demonstrates that it takes a bit more than a bit of positive thinking to override basic survival instinct.

I'm not sure what you have proven is nonsense - my thoughts on the stunt, or the idea that it isn't a "parlour trick"?

I think there are too many variables we don't know about to be able to decide if someone did perform a feat through hypnosis that would be impossible/very difficult otherwise.

Were all the ice-cubes really ice, or were some plastic? Was the thermometer real? Does being a "big and hard bd" make you more capable of enduring feats like this - or perhaps the opposite where skinny guys have less surface area to lose heat.. I just don't buy that hypnosis is some altered state that could make a person do something that positive-thinking, belief, adrenalin and confidence couldn't.

Derren does lots of cool, impressive and clever things - but I'm reserving judgement on the ice-bath stunt.

[carmonk]

erdnase said:

durbster said:

erdnase said:

I think the ice "trick" is similar to firewalking.. impressive looking, maybe a little uncomfortable at most, but with a bit of motivation, adrenalin, belief and a "you can do it!" attitude (ie, "hypnosis") is perfectly possible.

I think we've already proven that's nonsense.

When some of the biggest and hardest bds I've ever seen are wincing and catching their breath in ice baths I think that demonstrates that it takes a bit more than a bit of positive thinking to override basic survival instinct.

I'm not sure what you have proven is nonsense - my thoughts on the stunt, or the idea that it isn't a "parlour trick"?

I think there are too many variables we don't know about to be able to decide if someone did perform a feat through hypnosis that would be impossible/very difficult otherwise.

Were all the ice-cubes really ice, or were some plastic? Was the thermometer real? Does being a "big and hard bd" make you more capable of enduring feats like this - or perhaps the opposite where skinny guys have less surface area to lose heat.. I just don't buy that hypnosis is some altered state that could make a person do something that positive-thinking, belief, adrenalin and confidence couldn't.

Derren does lots of cool, impressive and clever things - but I'm reserving judgement on the ice-bath stunt.

And we have to ask the question, if he cheats on one of his tricks why on earth would anyone assume he doesn't cheat on all of them?

[freecar]

erdnase said:

durbster said:

erdnase said:

I think the ice "trick" is similar to firewalking.. impressive looking, maybe a little uncomfortable at most, but with a bit of motivation, adrenalin, belief and a "you can do it!" attitude (ie, "hypnosis") is perfectly possible.

I think we've already proven that's nonsense.

When some of the biggest and hardest bds I've ever seen are wincing and catching their breath in ice baths I think that demonstrates that it takes a bit more than a bit of positive thinking to override basic survival instinct.

I'm not sure what you have proven is nonsense - my thoughts on the stunt, or the idea that it isn't a "parlour trick"?

I think there are too many variables we don't know about to be able to decide if someone did perform a feat through hypnosis that would be impossible/very difficult otherwise.

Were all the ice-cubes really ice, or were some plastic? Was the thermometer real? Does being a "big and hard bd" make you more capable of enduring feats like this - or perhaps the opposite where skinny guys have less surface area to lose heat.. I just don't buy that hypnosis is some altered state that could make a person do something that positive-thinking, belief, adrenalin and confidence couldn't.

Derren does lots of cool, impressive and clever things - but I'm reserving judgement on the ice-bath stunt.

I also think that trick involved fkery! I didn't see it but looked at the thermal imaging pic and it didn't look right, looking at other thermal images there is a much greater degree of variation in normal people, this one doesn't look right at all!

[erdnase]

carmonk said:

And we have to ask the question, if he cheats on one of his tricks why on earth would anyone assume he doesn't cheat on all of them?

He does - all magicians do. All we're debating is the level at which he's "cheating".

When a magician says he saws a woman in half, we all know he's cheating, but still enjoy it. I don't believe he uses stooges (actors "in" on it), but he definitely cheats in clever and sometimes entertaining ways. It's just that lately, he's taken things a little too far - in my opinion anyway.

[carmonk]

erdnase said:

carmonk said:

And we have to ask the question, if he cheats on one of his tricks why on earth would anyone assume he doesn't cheat on all of them?

He does - all magicians do. All we're debating is the level at which he's "cheating".

But you can't say all magicians cheat because by and large they make no claims. A magician doesn't 'cut the woman in half' and claim he used actual magic. When Paul Daniels does a trick he doesn't claim to do it any particular way, or to use any particular method, therefore he can't be said to cheat. He just does the trick and that's that. DB is different in that he makes specific claims that he is using a certain method, and these have been proven in several cases to be blatantly not true. More damaging, he uses these claims as a basis for debunking the work of woo merchants such as mediums and faith healers, which is towering hypocrisy being that he indulges in much the same thing.

[erdnase]

carmonk said:

But you can't say all magicians cheat because by and large they make no claims. A magician doesn't 'cut the woman in half' and claim he used actual magic. When Paul Daniels does a trick he doesn't claim to do it any particular way, or to use any particular method, therefore he can't be said to cheat. He just does the trick and that's that. DB is different in that he makes specific claims that he is using a certain method, and these have been proven in several cases to be blatantly not true. More damaging, he uses these claims as a basis for debunking the work of woo merchants such as mediums and faith healers, which is towering hypocrisy being that he indulges in much the same thing.

I think we're on the same page here - the reason I'm no longer a Derren fan is all his woo-woo claims about nlp, hypnosis and psychology.

When Paul Daniels waves a magic wand over a ball under a cup - we all know the wand is misdirection and don't question it too much. Derren plays fast and loose with his "techniques", which whilst clever, are a step too far for me.

He's not the first magician to push the boundaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banachek), but.. yea, I agree with what you're saying.

[carmonk]

erdnase said:

carmonk said:

But you can't say all magicians cheat because by and large they make no claims. A magician doesn't 'cut the woman in half' and claim he used actual magic. When Paul Daniels does a trick he doesn't claim to do it any particular way, or to use any particular method, therefore he can't be said to cheat. He just does the trick and that's that. DB is different in that he makes specific claims that he is using a certain method, and these have been proven in several cases to be blatantly not true. More damaging, he uses these claims as a basis for debunking the work of woo merchants such as mediums and faith healers, which is towering hypocrisy being that he indulges in much the same thing.

I think we're on the same page here - the reason I'm no longer a Derren fan is all his woo-woo claims about nlp, hypnosis and psychology.

Exactly, and he uses those claims very cleverly. One thing that's sure is that he really is an expert in misdirection. I consider myself pretty hard-faced when it comes to sceptically evaluating claims yet for several years I'd quote DB as an example of how seemingly paranormal effects could be achieved through the manipulation of the mind and an applied knowledge of psychology. Truth is, I'd been taken in by his waffle in exactly the same way (although not to the same extent) as an audience member who believes the medium on stage is communicating messages from the dead. Just goes to show...

[durbster]

erdnase said:

...I just don't buy that hypnosis is some altered state that could make a person do something that positive-thinking, belief, adrenalin and confidence couldn't.

Then you might be surprised to hear that it's been studied extensively for years, and the conclusion is that it is a recognisable condition, particularly for pain relief. It's recognised by medical associations and is often used as an anesthetic. In fact if it wasn't for the introduction of ether we might all be going under before surgery

The popular perception of hypnosis rather undermines the reality of its potential.

carmonk said:

If I'm thinking of the right one, it certainly didn't involve psychology...

I think we both know that one sketch does not sum up the hour long programme.

The fact is that by the end of it, everyone involved was absolutely papping themself, completely sucked into the experience, and it was achieved through psychology.

[torqueofthedevil]

As others have said i have had many arguements with mates of mine who get angry when i suggest its all rubbish!!! They goes on about how its special techniques, NLP, suggestion. The fact that he tells us all this proves that this is how he is doing a trick.

My arguement is always the same. It is his "story" to build the trick around. I remember as a kid getting a magic book and it said it was really important to have a story, so instead of just finding which card somebody had chosen, you would tell them that you had magical powers etc.

All DB is doing is saying he did it with amazing phsycological techniques!

I think about amazing magic tricks I have seen where you pick a card and the magician throws the pack at a window and your signed card ends up on the other side of the glass! That is mind boggling but there will be some explanation. DB's approach is to say that he "knew" which you'd pick because he had "suggested" it to you first!

[carmonk]

durbster said:

The fact is that by the end of it, everyone involved was absolutely papping themself, completely sucked into the experience, and it was achieved through psychology.

I think you're grasping at straws there. You could argue that anytime someone gets frightened it's through psychology, but only in the very broadest sense. The point is that all the evidence points to psychology not playing a causal role in DB's shows, and the results he obtains being a result of standard stage magic and outright cheating and stoogism (and there's a word).

[durbster]

carmonk said:

I think you're grasping at straws there. You could argue that anytime someone gets frightened it's through psychology, but only in the very broadest sense. The point is that all the evidence points to psychology not playing a causal role in DB's shows, and the results he obtains being a result of standard stage magic and outright cheating and stoogism (and there's a word).

Grasping at straws? I really don't think your and my definition of psychology can be the same. The ability to affect somebody's state of mind is surely the ultimate aim of psychology. In Seance, he affected their state of mind to an extreme degree; where they lost their logical and reasonable function to a very primal state of fear.

[carmonk]

torqueofthedevil said:

As others have said i have had many arguements with mates of mine who get angry when i suggest its all rubbish!!! They goes on about how its special techniques, NLP, suggestion. The fact that he tells us all this proves that this is how he is doing a trick.

My arguement is always the same. It is his "story" to build the trick around. I remember as a kid getting a magic book and it said it was really important to have a story, so instead of just finding which card somebody had chosen, you would tell them that you had magical powers etc.

All DB is doing is saying he did it with amazing phsycological techniques!

I think about amazing magic tricks I have seen where you pick a card and the magician throws the pack at a window and your signed card ends up on the other side of the glass! That is mind boggling but there will be some explanation. DB's approach is to say that he "knew" which you'd pick because he had "suggested" it to you first!

Indeed, and in the case of DB the believer effect is compounded because he appears such a nice guy (unlike that weirdo Blaine) and you actively want to believe what he's telling you. After watching him and falling for his patter for some years it was quite a wrench to realise that his modus operandi is exactly the same as the mediums and psychics he rightly vilifies. The whole psychology / influencing / suggestion / memory thing is simply spin, to make him stand out from the crowd.

[carmonk]

durbster said:

carmonk said:

I think you're grasping at straws there. You could argue that anytime someone gets frightened it's through psychology, but only in the very broadest sense. The point is that all the evidence points to psychology not playing a causal role in DB's shows, and the results he obtains being a result of standard stage magic and outright cheating and stoogism (and there's a word).

Grasping at straws? I really don't think your and my definition of psychology can be the same. The ability to affect somebody's state of mind is surely the ultimate aim of psychology. In Seance, he affected their state of mind to an extreme degree; where they lost their logical and reasonable function to a very primal state of fear.

So if I run at you with an axe you'd say I used psychology to frighten you? Arguably I would have but it would hardly require any special knowledge or ability on my part. Same with DB. If he uses cheap tricks to frighten people then psychology doesn't come into play in anything but its most broad sense.

[erdnase]

durbster said:

Then you might be surprised to hear that it's been studied extensively for years, and the conclusion is that it is a recognisable condition, particularly for pain relief. It's recognised by medical associations and is often used as an anesthetic.

Interesting article you linked to - thanks!

For me, the jury is still out on "real" hypnosis - but I'm pretty sure that whatever Derren or other stage hypnotists do isn't hypnosis. Perhaps it's a little compliance, expectation, playing-along, etc, but I'd put that more in the psychology bucket than the "hypnosis as an altered state" bucket.

As for "real" hypnosis.. I'm still not sure. I've read reports on the anaesthetic qualities, but.. I'm just not convinced that it's more effective than having a calming, relaxing voice there with you. I'm going to have a look and see if there are any controlled experiments where, say, one subject is hypnotised and another is calmed/soothed in a way similar to hypnosis. The thing is, people use the word hypnosis so broadly that it would be hard to distinguish between the two.

..and I'd love to see someone have root-canal treatment done under hypnosis

[durbster]

erdnase said:

... The thing is, people use the word hypnosis so broadly that it would be hard to distinguish between the two.

Yeah I still reckon a large part of this discussion is people using different terminology for the same things. I'm saying hypnosis and psychology but whether I've got the definitions right I don't actually know.

Hypnosis is one of those things that's incredibly difficult to prove because it requires the subject to be aware of what's going on. You can't really have a control or placebo comparison because everyone needs to be compliant.

There's no doubt the human body is capable of extraordinary things and there's also no doubt it's our consciousness that keeps us from doing it. If we can interfere with that conscious process then it makes complete sense that hypnosis can work (and the same is true of beer )

I mean if you cut your finger then your body has the correct mechanism to heal it. It just requires your brain to send a signal to make that happen. I guess hypnosis is focusing on interrupting or influencing those signals somehow.

erdnase said:

..and I'd love to see someone have root-canal treatment done under hypnosis

I'm reasonably convinced that it can work but I don't know if I'd go as far as trusting it myself

[Halb]

carmonk said:

Back then I'd have got into a bath of ice with no expression too if it meant inflating my somewhat peurile ego. And that was in front of 10 mates, if I'd have been on TV I'd likely have chopped off my own arm without blinking rather than appear 'weak'....
As for putting it on YouTube, too much effort, so I'm afraid all I can offer is my non-evidential but honest belief that I could sit in a bath of ice for two minutes with no facial expression whatsoever.

I think you may have attempted to not show any facial signs, I think you would have failed! I think that kind of control needs to be accessed by decades of training (I am thinking of monks here, the sort you can't push over) or through hypnosis.

[carmonk]

Halb said:

carmonk said:

Back then I'd have got into a bath of ice with no expression too if it meant inflating my somewhat peurile ego. And that was in front of 10 mates, if I'd have been on TV I'd likely have chopped off my own arm without blinking rather than appear 'weak'....
As for putting it on YouTube, too much effort, so I'm afraid all I can offer is my non-evidential but honest belief that I could sit in a bath of ice for two minutes with no facial expression whatsoever.

I think you may have attempted to not show any facial signs, I think you would have failed! I think that kind of control needs to be accessed by decades of training (I am thinking of monks here, the sort you can't push over) or through hypnosis.

I'm interested to try it now, just for my own benefit. I'll have to make do without the ice but running the bath in winter will produce water of a very similar temperature.

[Halb]

carmonk said:

I'm interested to try it now, just for my own benefit. I'll have to make do without the ice but running the bath in winter will produce water of a very similar temperature.

If you do try it, take the temperature and get someone to watch you. I would bet a fiver that at the very start there would be some indication that your environment has changed.
I know I would scream like a 9 year old girl when I used to take a dip in the plunge pool or go under the bucket shower.
basically something like this

[carmonk]

Bedazzled said:

Nobody understands how hypnotism really works, or its limitations, you just have to look at the number of competing theories on Wiki to see that. But the effects are real; it can be used as an anesthetic which supports the ice-bath scenario, and to trigger memory loss here, as experienced by the assassin in Ep1.

DB's idea for the acid test may have originated in Young’s 1952 paper "Antisocial uses of hypnosis":

Young said:

“Rowland and Young found that hypnotized Ss were willing to carry out such apparently antisocial actions as grasping a dangerous reptile, plunging their hand into concentrated acid, and throwing the acid at an assistant.”

Some interesting comments on DB's show from a practising hypnotherapist here:

Adam Eason said:

Following these studies, subsequent researchers and academics have scrutinized them and explain the findings in terms of the research subjects wanting to please and aid the researcher and hypnotist, believing that what they were doing was actually perfectly safe, and assuming that someone else was ultimately responsible for any wrong-doing.

Quite a damning article, from DB's perspective, and it didn't even touch on the observational evidence. The 1989 case noted may well have been true, but that's a husband and wife scenario that played out over years, I'd guess, and more to do with brainwashing than hypnosis. I very much doubt the husband just clicked his fingers and sent his wife off to murder someone.

Adam Eason said:

I think it's possible to trick subjects into believing what they are doing is safe. For example DB may have used a trigger word to make the assassin believe the gun was only loaded with blanks, and he trusted DB completely so he was then quite happy to fire at Fry, knowing that nothing bad would happen.

But you don't even need to go that far. If you get someone up on stage and ask them to do something they wouldn't normally do, they'll likely do it without any need for hypnosis. Who has the balls to refuse in front of a live audience and potentially 6m viewers? They know they're not going to be asked to do anything actually dangerous so they just go ahead. In the Stephen Fry show all the bloke had to do was ask himself, "Would Derren Brown actually commission the murder of Stephen Fry for a TV show?" Clearly, unless he was mentally ill, he'd conclude that no, it wasn't particularly likely. And that's all we need to account for the fact he fired the gun. Forget the woo-woo, the simple explanation fits perfectly.

[carmonk]

Halb said:

carmonk said:

I'm interested to try it now, just for my own benefit. I'll have to make do without the ice but running the bath in winter will produce water of a very similar temperature.

If you do try it, take the temperature and get someone to watch you. I would bet a fiver that at the very start there would be some indication that your environment has changed.
I know I would scream like a 9 year old girl when I used to take a dip in the plunge pool or go under the bucket shower.
basically something like this

I used to take cold showers to wake me up (before I became too sedated to care). They don't really bother me. But I will try with the bath, and if I do it first thing on a cold day (say -10C outside) the water won't be significantly warmer than 2C. Of course, it's likely that the water in DB's show was nowhere near 2C but that's an aside.