Oi! Derren Brown! NO!

[carmonk]

Bedazzled said:

carmonk said:

...if I do it first thing on a cold day...

Here come the excuses, grab some ice from the freezer and get on with it, science waits for no man! There's no way you'll keep a straight face at that temp!

I don't have any ice in the freezer, nor room for any I'm afraid. You'll need to wait for the verdict but I'm quietly confident I can prove it to myself at least.

[Loominarty]

I believe you can buy bagged ice down at your local Asda etc...
Fill the bath, add two or three bags of ice, wait ten minutes and hop on in
Be sure to have a hot water bottle standing by to defrost your frozen shrivelled balls ......

[hairykrishna]

The more I think about it, the more I think the bath Derren used was nowhere near 1.5 degrees anyway. It'd be trivially easy to fake while having it at near room temperature. That'd be the more reliable way to do it, without relying on your 'volunteer' so much.

[carmonk]

hairykrishna said:

The more I think about it, the more I think the bath Derren used was nowhere near 1.5 degrees anyway. It'd be trivially easy to fake while having it at near room temperature. That'd be the more reliable way to do it, without relying on your 'volunteer' so much.

And being that we know he cheated on several other occasions there's no reason to believe he wouldn't have used this method.

[carmonk]

Bedazzled said:

carmonk said:

hairykrishna said:

The more I think about it, the more I think the bath Derren used was nowhere near 1.5 degrees anyway. It'd be trivially easy to fake while having it at near room temperature. That'd be the more reliable way to do it, without relying on your 'volunteer' so much.

And being that we know he cheated on several other occasions there's no reason to believe he wouldn't have used this method.

Finally a bit of sense, it's a proper trick rather than merely a stooge, but of course it's 'cheating' he's a magician what do you expect?

So if it were proven that DB actually used warm water and plastic ice cubes you'd be OK with that? You wouldn't feel cheated? You're in a minority there. You refer to all magicians 'cheating' but as I said, that's simply not so. When Paul Daniels does a trick he makes no claims to how it's done, so how can it be cheating? Yet DB is clear that he uses mind techniques and that all the evidence points to him not doing. If DB made none of these claims nobody would watch his shows, because you or I or anybody could do those tricks. When Penn & Teller do a trick we generally have no idea how it's done. The same is true with DB but only if we believe his premise that he's using mind techniques. Take that away and there is a blatant and obvious method in many of the cases. Camera tricks, plastic ice cubes, stage hands, 'stooges'. And that's what the evidence suggests he does in all his tricks.

Bedazzled said:

It's not trivial to fake a moving image on a thermal imaging camera, but maybe they increased the gain so that merely chilly water appears very dark blue, for example.

Exactly. Very easy to make a tone adjustment of a digital image and probably very easy to alter the sensitivity range on the actual imaging equipment. But beyond that, you're missing something. How would a layman know what level of colour change applied to what level of actual temperature change? Of course, they wouldn't. We wouldn't. For all anybody knows that colour change could be produced by standing outside on a chilly day, or it might be expected only to be produced from a block of ice. Why take DB's word for it that those colours represent a massive temperature drop?

Bedazzled said:

That would explain the rest of the image looking so uniformly hot. But it still requires the subject to be hypnotised so they experience the right sensations of hot and cold and react in the right way; in this case making him feel cold and jump out of the bath when DB placed his hand on the side.

Are you kidding? You think someone who's not hypnotised is incapable of saying, "Woo, that's cold!" and jumping out of a bath? He already told the guy what he wanted to happen, so the guy was playing along. Why would he want to make a fool of himself by deliberately doing something he knew DB didn't want to happen. DB would have been disappointed, the audience would just think he was being a dick and the scene would end up on the cutting room floor. Hardly a great result for someone who obviously wants to appear on TV.

Bedazzled said:

here is a similar trick using hypnotism to alter someone's colour perception. Watch how he triggers uncertainty by touching her right shoulder, and certainty by touching her left. Or is it yet another stooge...?

Within my definition of a stooge as someone who plays along and who's had dealings with DB or his production crew before-hand, I'd say yes. There's a lot more set-up than we're given to believe and things have been arranged behind the scenes. If seems that you and others suspend all critical faculties where DB is involved, yet I'm sure you would be suspicious of that situation had anyone else been involved. Did you not notice that when they walked outside, her car was right there next to the entrance, the first one they came across? How likely is that? Very convenient to avoid the camera crew threading their way through rows of parked cars. Then she said, "This black car looks like mine." If you're searching for a red car you wouldn't even look at a black car, so her behaviour was inexplicable. Then she pointed out the yellow ('red') Hummer; how convenient that there was a monstrous banana yellow vehicle parked right there in order she could provde DB's red / yellow 'hypnosis' trick had worked. Honestly, if you take that at face value then I admit defeat - You'll never come round to my way of thinking. I'll end with a red smiley...

Edited by carmonk on Wednesday 9th November 15:43

[carmonk]

Bedazzled said:

I think you're missing the point entirely. Hypnotism is clearly used in his act, but it's combined with clever trickery and deception so that he appears to achieve the impossible. Magic isn't real, so all magicians are by definition cheats

So which magician actually claims to use magic? I don't know of a single one. And when you say hypnotism is clearly used in DB's act this is simply not true. Where's your evidence? Several times it's been proved that hypnosis is not used in acts where he claims it was. Does every one of his acts need to be debunked for you to dismiss the idea? That's not what I'd call critical thinking.

Bedazzled said:

If you're suggesting that every time DB hypnotises someone he's using a stooge then you need to get a grip, just think how many people that would involve, it would inevitably leak and yet it hasn't, has it?

Why do you keep repeating this, I've said numerous times that it's a combination of people playing along, camera tricks, stagehands and yes, maybe even real stooges on occasion - not actors but individuals who have had dealings with DB and his crew before the act itself. Regarding the 'leaks', I've already explained that. Few people would listen, fewer would care, any publicity attracted would be negative and in many cases you'd be on the wrong end of a lawsuit, being that some partipants without question must have signed some sort of contract before appearing on the show. What has anybody to gain by starting some misguided campaign, other than attracting the wrath of numerous DB fanboys?

Bedazzled said:

His skill is to combine it with trickery to amplify the effects and make us wonder how he does it.

Why on earth would anybody who has a genuine and allegedly unique skill need to employ heavy use of trickery? Again, even when proof is forthcoming you can't fall back to that baseline of logical scepticism, you have to cling on to the possibility that DB uses hypnosis some of the time. "OK, so he cheated then, and used a camera trick then and a stage-hand then, but I bet he used real hypnotism in this episode..." Do you apply the same criteria to mediums? Do you believe mediums really receive messages from the dead, because even I'll admit that the vast majority of mediumistic shows have never been analysed or debunked.

Bedazzled said:

If you want to believe it's a stooge then fine, but there is no point in you watching the show, because it's wasted on you.

I don't understand the relevance.

Bedazzled said:

For the ice-bath we've now got a scenario that fits with the limitations of stage hypnosis; controlling the environment with trickery and deception, and then using simple hypnosis to trigger sensations of hot and cold in an innocent volunteer to generate human reactions that fit with the story being told.

Jesus, you admit that the environment was likely controlled yet you cling like a drowning man to this assertion that hypnotism was still used! It's a god of the gaps scenario only with DB's hypnosis replacing God.

Bedazzled said:

You asked why I was discussing the ice-bath and it's because once we've figured out his basic tricks, in all likelihood the more spectacular stunts, such as getting the volunteer to shoot someone, will use the exact same principles.

Exactly. His basic trick is misdirection, as he himself claims, but what he doesn't say is it's misdirection to cover the fact he doesn't use any psychology whatsoever other than being a nice guy who audience members don't want to disappoint or disagree with.

[hairykrishna]

You're arguing at cross purposes to a certain extent I think. It's back to the definition of hypnotism again. Personally I'm happy to accept the people on Derrens show are 'hypnotised' to the extent that they happily go along with everything he says.

The caveat to this is that they are fully aware that they are in a TV show and do nothing which they wouldn't comfortably do anyway. There's nothing special about the 'hypnotism' over asking them to do it normally. They are not performing any superhuman feats or doing anything particularly dramatic. This seems to me to fly in the face of the premise of the 'experiments' show. These people do not think they're going to kill Steven Fry and are therefore not 'programmed to be an assassin'. They realise that they are not really confessing to a murder.

Anything which would require something out of the ordinary is faked using normal magicians techniques.

[carmonk]

hairykrishna said:

You're arguing at cross purposes to a certain extent I think. It's back to the definition of hypnotism again. Personally I'm happy to accept the people on Derrens show are 'hypnotised' to the extent that they happily go along with everything he says.

The caveat to this is that they are fully aware that they are in a TV show and do nothing which they wouldn't comfortably do anyway. There's nothing special about the 'hypnotism' over asking them to do it normally. They are not performing any superhuman feats or doing anything particularly dramatic. This seems to me to fly in the face of the premise of the 'experiments' show. These people do not think they're going to kill Steven Fry and are therefore not 'programmed to be an assassin'. They realise that they are not really confessing to a murder.

Anything which would require something out of the ordinary is faked using normal magicians techniques.

Sure, you could say someone's hypnotised in the colloquial sense if they're in a compliant state. Someone might be said to be hypnotised when meeting a person they admire but that doesn't mean the person has any skill or even intent as a hypnotist. Basically it's a case of playing along and the only psychology used is that people don't tend to rock the boat if an acceptable and often desirable alternative exists.

[durbster]

hairykrishna said:

...The caveat to this is that they are fully aware that they are in a TV show and do nothing which they wouldn't comfortably do anyway...

I wouldn't do half the stuff on his shows, whether on stage or not.

[carmonk]

durbster said:

hairykrishna said:

...The caveat to this is that they are fully aware that they are in a TV show and do nothing which they wouldn't comfortably do anyway...

I wouldn't do half the stuff on his shows, whether on stage or not.

Why not?

Nevertheless, you can assume that a person applying to be on his show would be prepared to do whatever is expected of them.

[hairykrishna]

durbster said:

I wouldn't do half the stuff on his shows, whether on stage or not.

Then you presumably either wouldn't be on the show, or would end up on the cutting room floor. Stuff he does live in his stage shows requires no more cooperation than any normal magicians tricks, because they are normal magicians tricks.

[carmonk]

And a 10 second Google search reveals that there are some suspicious goings-on re stooges; people pop up but as I say nobody takes any notice. Here's one where an actress has the DB show on her CV... oops...

http://aboutderrenbrown.blogspot.com/2008/07/revea...

And here's what a contestant had to say about his appearance on the show, whose video was posted on YouTube and then blocked by C4.

contestant said:

Sorry guys, but this is all an act, as I am the bald guy that freaks out (just look at my profile pic). It was all an act from start to finish. We auditioned at the Adelphi hotel in Liverpool, and then travelled down to Portmeirion. I even got travel expenses for giving some of the other contestants (the young guy at the start and someone else)a lift, so we where not just random people picked out of the crown. We had to do it several times as the camera man wanted it from different angles.

I also read a very good point which says that if DB does use actors and actresses then this would explain why few if any come forward. If you're an actor and you breach contract then you'll likely never work again. A heck of a motivator.

[hairykrishna]

Bedazzled said:

Can you give me some examples of this, rather than just demanding evidence to the contrary? I don't doubt some of his acts are standard trickery, but when has he claimed to use psychology in previous tricks which have subsequently been debunked?

The spirit cabinet one I mentioned earlier for a start. Editing in the TV shows makes them hard to catch - you never know what's missing. I've seen all of his stage shows and, as far as I remember, there's nothing in there that's not a normal magicians trick.

He tends to make fairly extensive use of well made, sometimes high tech, gimmicks. This might look familiar if you've seen 'An Evening of Wonder' for example;

http://www.malloymodernmagic.com/master_prediction...

He has also used variants of this;

http://www.magictricks.co.uk/products/4-NEW/5342-M...

[carmonk]

Bedazzled said:

carmonk said:

when you say hypnotism is clearly used in DB's act this is simply not true. Where's your evidence?

I've already provided several examples but you're skirting around them with your claim that everyone is a stooge, rather than analysing them properly, simply because they don't fit with your viewpoint; it's called confirmation bias.

Why do you keep repeating that I think everyone is a stooge when in almost every answer I give I explain in detail that this isn't the case? Honestly, I'm baffled.

Bedazzled said:

carmonk said:

Why on earth would anybody who has a genuine and allegedly unique skill need to employ heavy use of trickery?

I'm not suggesting his hypnotic skill is unique, in fact quite the reverse; I'm saying he supplements clever trickery and deception with standard stage hypnosis techniques in order to give the appearance of achieving the impossible; the goal of every magician.

OK, case in point. Check out the example I gave earlier, the woman in the box who chucks the tambourine. Where does the hypnosis element come into play and why would you suggest it's anything other than a direct cheat with no psychological aspect or merit whatsoever?

Bedazzled said:

carmonk said:

you admit that the environment was likely controlled yet you cling like a drowning man to this assertion that hypnotism was still used!

I've said all along the environment was controlled, but I think he also uses hypnotism to enhance his magic act. Simple stage hypnosis is well understood and it's more reliable than putting your trust in unknown stooges. Anyhow if the trick were performed merely with a stooge, everyone and his uncle would be making similar shows; but they aren't, are they?

People who claim to use hypnosis are ten a penny, you'll find one at the end of every pier. You could take any performer at the top of their game and ask why them? It proves nothing.

Bedazzled said:

carmonk said:

Several times it's been proved that hypnosis is not used in acts where he claims it was.

Can you give me some examples of this, rather than just demanding evidence to the contrary? I don't doubt some of his acts are standard trickery, but when has he claimed to use psychology in previous tricks which have subsequently been debunked?

But I HAVE given examples, are you not reading my posts? I pointed to the split screen technique on the lottery and the stagehand pre-recorded tambourine throwing in the seance-type show. Check them out on YouTube.

Bedazzled said:

carmonk said:

Do you believe mediums really receive messages from the dead, because even I'll admit that the vast majority of mediumistic shows have never been analysed or debunked.

Why do you keep comparing hypnotism to supernatural mediums and God? It's a standard psychological procedure which has been tested in the laboratory. Are you suggesting it doesn't exist?

Surgery has been proven to exist in an operating theatre but that doesn't mean I believe faith healers can extract your kidneys by waving a finger. So no, I don't believe that in the stressful situation of a studio, with live audience and 6m TV viewers, a person can be hypnotised into doing anything, let alone 'killing' someone or behaving in some totally outlandish manner. Find me one evidential scientific experiment where a person has been put into a trance by someone clicking their fingers and saying 'sleep'. It's woo-woo of the highest order.

[carmonk]

hairykrishna said:

Bedazzled said:

Can you give me some examples of this, rather than just demanding evidence to the contrary? I don't doubt some of his acts are standard trickery, but when has he claimed to use psychology in previous tricks which have subsequently been debunked?

The spirit cabinet one I mentioned earlier for a start. Editing in the TV shows makes them hard to catch - you never know what's missing. I've seen all of his stage shows and, as far as I remember, there's nothing in there that's not a normal magicians trick.

He tends to make fairly extensive use of well made, sometimes high tech, gimmicks. This might look familiar if you've seen 'An Evening of Wonder' for example;

http://www.malloymodernmagic.com/master_prediction...

He has also used variants of this;

http://www.magictricks.co.uk/products/4-NEW/5342-M...

All that hi-tech asshattery actually makes you appreciate the likes of Geller and Hydrick more. The difference between them and DB is that DB says he uses psychology rather than telekinesis, but at least these guys used some real innovation and skill. Take a look at this, great stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sblPQWKHOY

[hairykrishna]

carmonk said:

All that hi-tech asshattery actually makes you appreciate the likes of Geller and Hydrick more. The difference between them and DB is that DB says he uses psychology rather than telekinesis, but at least these guys used some real innovation and skill. Take a look at this, great stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sblPQWKHOY

Derren is also a very highly skilled close up magician, no gimmicks required. His instructional videos for magicians 'The Devil's Picturebook' was excellent.

[carmonk]

hairykrishna said:

carmonk said:

All that hi-tech asshattery actually makes you appreciate the likes of Geller and Hydrick more. The difference between them and DB is that DB says he uses psychology rather than telekinesis, but at least these guys used some real innovation and skill. Take a look at this, great stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sblPQWKHOY

Derren is also a very highly skilled close up magician, no gimmicks required. His instructional videos for magicians 'The Devil's Picturebook' was excellent.

I think so too, but it appears he's now sold out in the interests of getting bigger audiences. How long before he's squatting in a glass box in Trafalgar Square?

[torqueofthedevil]

Can somebody who is supporting DB explain the lottery prediction trick he did? Was it the wisdom of crowds?!?! Haha somebody please argue that was a good performance and explain how he did it!

I'm almost sure nobody will come on here and do that!!!

[erdnase]

carmonk said:

So which magician actually claims to use magic? I don't know of a single one.

Uri Geller springs to mind.. the rascal

I've seen that James Hydric clip before.. gotta love James Randi! There's footage of Randi and Geller appearing together on a show - I forget which - and Randi susses him out and prevents Gellers powers from working, etc. I'll try to find it!

[carmonk]

erdnase said:

carmonk said:

So which magician actually claims to use magic? I don't know of a single one.

Uri Geller springs to mind.. the rascal

I've seen that James Hydric clip before.. gotta love James Randi! There's footage of Randi and Geller appearing together on a show - I forget which - and Randi susses him out and prevents Gellers powers from working, etc. I'll try to find it!

Yeah, but Geller never said he was a magician. I think the one you're thinking of is when Randi sprinkled styrofoam around the book and Hydrick was oddly enough prevented from using his magic powers due to 'static electricity'