Star Wars: The Last Jedi (CONTAINS SPOILERS)
Discussion
Coolbanana said:
The fanboy's/girl's who find TLJ disappointing can sulk all they like, the franchise has to evolve to match new audiences.
Say's who? Why can't a new audience be introduced to an established concept? Plus, who is the arbiter of what 'new audiences' want?TLJ demonstrates that what you claim to be doing and what you actually achieve do not automatically align
Coolbanana said:
I watched TLJ again recently and it is easily as 'good' as Empire in my opinion; in the 80's fanboy's and girls also threw their toys from their collective prams at the direction it was taking. Now the movie is a Fantasy classic.
Star Wars as a whole is just Fantasy Sci-Fi. It is fun to watch but from the outset it has always been badly acted in parts, far-fetched and downright stupid sometimes.
The fanboy's/girl's who find TLJ disappointing can sulk all they like, the franchise has to evolve to match new audiences. It faces massive competition from other very successful Fantasy franchises now - Marvel etc - and evolving generations of how movies are received relevant to the times they appear first in.
I saw the original in 1977 at an open air drive-in cinema as a child and have seen every movie since within the first week of them coming out. Many fond memories. This hasn't changed with TFA or TLJ or the spin-offs. All good fun. No complaints.
Really cant agree here. The claim that TLJ is any where near as good as Empire is nonsense. I am hearing this come out of a few places and its being jumped on by SW fans, many who remembered seeing the original three in cinemas. Star Wars as a whole is just Fantasy Sci-Fi. It is fun to watch but from the outset it has always been badly acted in parts, far-fetched and downright stupid sometimes.
The fanboy's/girl's who find TLJ disappointing can sulk all they like, the franchise has to evolve to match new audiences. It faces massive competition from other very successful Fantasy franchises now - Marvel etc - and evolving generations of how movies are received relevant to the times they appear first in.
I saw the original in 1977 at an open air drive-in cinema as a child and have seen every movie since within the first week of them coming out. Many fond memories. This hasn't changed with TFA or TLJ or the spin-offs. All good fun. No complaints.
Usually about things like the emperor was a total unknown and went 'nowhere', the rebels were defeated effectively and were clearly going to be overrun by the empire, and the yoda\bespin scenes didn't add anything, but when Jedi came out the holes were filled in, and episode 9 will do the same for TLJ.
The problem is, that argument doesn't hold water for a few reasons, TLJ was badly written, we now know that there was no plan for the three films at all!!
Rian Johnson hadnt seen force awakens apart from a bit of the start and the last 10 minutes while writing TLJ.
The whole start of the film felt wrong when the "your momma" jokes between Po and Hux, it didnt fit with star wars, its a modern day comedy thing thats never been in the films before, its been in Marvel for over 10 years and works as its been the tone since the outset, its not the tone in star wars and jamming it in feels stupid.
Making the bad guys all idiots completely /comedy relief takes away all threat and antagonism the audiance may feel toward our heroes, so we now straight away they will win, as we know they are in no danger.
Destroying Luke as a character was unforgivable in my opinion, turning him into a sociopath that would kill his nephew because he 'might!' turn bad, this is the man who felt the good in the most evil man in the universe, darth vader.
Also, why did Luke leave a map for folk to find him if he in no way wanted to help his friends and family ever again.
Hyperspace weapons break star wars. It looked cool, and in the cinema i was like "That looked cool", then about 10 seconds later i went, hang on, why didnt the rebels just fire a droid flown x-wing into the death star at hyperspeed and break it in two....
Also the biggest issue i have, at the end, there are about 20-30 rebels left, in the falcon, to fight what as far as we are led to believe the first order is as powerful as the old empire...how exactly are they not going to lose...instantly.
Oh yeah, Rey, the most powerful untrained jedi in all existance, she'll sort it all right out.
Dont get me wrong, if you want to like it, like it. But it is not better than Empire which is seen by many critics and fans alike as one of the best films made, with a tight story and good characters.
yes its a fantasy, but that doesnt forgive meandering story, mary sue\ gary stu tropes and jamming modern day humour and politics into a setting that never had it before in a way that was so overt and felt shoehorned in.
Also we know for a fact that the film is being overseen by people who despise the old fandom. This same fandom who made star wars a 40 year $4 billion franchise, i can guarantee they wont attract a loyal franchise with this new all over the place storytelling.
(P.S. this may be me getting wound up as i type....apologies for wall of text ravings...)
Coolbanana said:
I watched TLJ again recently and it is easily as 'good' as Empire in my opinion; in the 80's fanboy's and girls also threw their toys from their collective prams at the direction it was taking. Now the movie is a Fantasy classic.
Star Wars as a whole is just Fantasy Sci-Fi. It is fun to watch but from the outset it has always been badly acted in parts, far-fetched and downright stupid sometimes.
The fanboy's/girl's who find TLJ disappointing can sulk all they like, the franchise has to evolve to match new audiences. It faces massive competition from other very successful Fantasy franchises now - Marvel etc - and evolving generations of how movies are received relevant to the times they appear first in.
I saw the original in 1977 at an open air drive-in cinema as a child and have seen every movie since within the first week of them coming out. Many fond memories. This hasn't changed with TFA or TLJ or the spin-offs. All good fun. No complaints.
I really don’t see how anyone could claim it’s better than empire (or any other Star Wars movie come to think about it).Star Wars as a whole is just Fantasy Sci-Fi. It is fun to watch but from the outset it has always been badly acted in parts, far-fetched and downright stupid sometimes.
The fanboy's/girl's who find TLJ disappointing can sulk all they like, the franchise has to evolve to match new audiences. It faces massive competition from other very successful Fantasy franchises now - Marvel etc - and evolving generations of how movies are received relevant to the times they appear first in.
I saw the original in 1977 at an open air drive-in cinema as a child and have seen every movie since within the first week of them coming out. Many fond memories. This hasn't changed with TFA or TLJ or the spin-offs. All good fun. No complaints.
The story is straight up nonsense. The red letter media plinkett review absolutely nails it.
It’s very difficult to see a way back from it to be honest.
Bob Eiger now knows he has a car crash thanks to Kennedy, who has taken a money making machine and f
ked it royally. Can't stcan KK because no-one wants her job. It's a tough bind for Eiger, especially when Marvel sits alongside, it looks like golden child being inducted into Harvard next to the mentally deranged and impaired child who is trying to eat bricks and flinging poop
THat really is top trolling, RJ levels!
ked it royally. Can't stcan KK because no-one wants her job. It's a tough bind for Eiger, especially when Marvel sits alongside, it looks like golden child being inducted into Harvard next to the mentally deranged and impaired child who is trying to eat bricks and flinging poopLucas Ayde said:
What I don't get is why Star Wars fans generally liked TFA and didn't like this. They both just cribbed large parts of the Original Trilogy and re-told them, were both full of SJW nonsense and essentially made the OT nearly pointless by rendering the accomplishments of Han, Luke and Leia moot and bringing the characters to sad ends.
the yuge goodwill treasure chest (now squandered) and willing suspension of disbelief that things would improve, which they didn't, in hindsight which is 20/20, they plummeted. Rick_1138 said:
Really cant agree here. The claim that TLJ is any where near as good as Empire is nonsense.
THat really is top trolling, RJ levels! Guvernator said:
I think they did do it on purpose, well not the wasting a $4bn franchise part, I'm sure they were sort of hoping\expecting that they'd make lots of money on this franchise but I do think they did deliberately try to kill the old franchise and here is why.
They gave it to a production team that didn't really understand what makes Star Wars special AT ALL. This team decided that they didn't want to pander to the original Star Wars fans as middle aged white males make up the majority of it and that fanbase just isn't PC and hip enough for modern Hollywood anymore.
So the main aim for this movie was not to continue the Star Wars story but to change it radically in order to expand and change that fan demographic. It's the kind of plan that new age marketing types love as it means they get to show Powerpoint slides to the money execs about how they are going to be targeting totally new, socially acceptable demographic groups and making the film more "inclusive" of everyone. If we include everyone they told the money men, it will mean more people will watch it which equals more money.
There does seem to be a general attitude in business that their target markets are now 'progressive' in outlook - hence all it takes is a twitter outrage mob complaining how 'offended' they are at some non-issue to get companies to apologise for the imagined transgression or change policies, whatever.They gave it to a production team that didn't really understand what makes Star Wars special AT ALL. This team decided that they didn't want to pander to the original Star Wars fans as middle aged white males make up the majority of it and that fanbase just isn't PC and hip enough for modern Hollywood anymore.
So the main aim for this movie was not to continue the Star Wars story but to change it radically in order to expand and change that fan demographic. It's the kind of plan that new age marketing types love as it means they get to show Powerpoint slides to the money execs about how they are going to be targeting totally new, socially acceptable demographic groups and making the film more "inclusive" of everyone. If we include everyone they told the money men, it will mean more people will watch it which equals more money.
I really doubt that this is the case - there is IMO a *massive* over-representation of PC sentiment in the media (both traditional and online) and big Silicon Valley companies who are the gatekeepers to social media but I believe that most members of the public have pretty neutral or traditional sensibilities.
As soon as business starts mucking about with it's business model to please the 'right-on' crowd their product becomes less appealing to the average person. Personally, few things annoy me more than going onto, say, a website where I want to find out about a hobby and being subjected to political diatribes by 'hip' journalists, and I think I'm not the only one. For example: Computer games seems to be really badly hit by this - nearly all the mainstream sites seem to spend as much time preaching political correctness and discussing 'social' (ie SJW) topics as they do actual games. I tend to seek out smaller sites or channels that actually seem to be made by gamers and not wannabe 'activists'.
'Get Woke, Go Broke' as they say.
JagLover said:
Lucas Ayde said:
Kermode is unfortunately one of the biggest virtue-signallers going. He increasingly reviews stuff on the basis of how PC the narrative is, rather than whether or not it is a good movie. A real shame as I used to trust his opinion.
The only people I trust are the RLM guys. TBH all of this SJW nonsense would vanish if they'd just made a good film. None complained when Sarah Connor changed from carefree 20-something singleton into psycho- survivalist Mom-From-Hell who you suddenly realise you've always wanted in your life. Nor when traumatised Ripley strapped a flamethrower to an assault rifle to go where no Badass Marine in their fking mind would go. Because the film was so good it made perfect sense. And these were at a time when Ahnold and Rambo in their pomp were waking around giving it full testosterone.
Write a good film, for fks sake! How fking hard can it be when we've been pumping out English Lit and Drama grads like an oil spill for thirty years? Just employ people who can write!
king mind would go. Because the film was so good it made perfect sense. And these were at a time when Ahnold and Rambo in their pomp were waking around giving it full testosterone.Write a good film, for f
ks sake! How fking hard can it be when we've been pumping out English Lit and Drama grads like an oil spill for thirty years? Just employ people who can write!generationx said:
Nailed it.As an aside, re: the deleted scene at 27:00. Jesus wept.
g3org3y said:
generationx said:
Nailed it.Went beyond the surface details that annoyed so many to show how the whole basic structure failed.
Lucas Ayde said:
What I don't get is why Star Wars fans generally liked TFA and didn't like this. They both just cribbed large parts of the Original Trilogy and re-told them, were both full of SJW nonsense and essentially made the OT nearly pointless by rendering the accomplishments of Han, Luke and Leia moot and bringing the characters to sad ends.
It just had a bit more "diverse" casting than the original trilogy, no heavy handed SJW message that I could see.
Lucas Ayde said:
What I don't get is why Star Wars fans generally liked TFA and didn't like this. They both just cribbed large parts of the Original Trilogy and re-told them, were both full of SJW nonsense and essentially made the OT nearly pointless by rendering the accomplishments of Han, Luke and Leia moot and bringing the characters to sad ends.
The SJW crap wasn't nearly as blatant. Yes Rey was a Mary Sue, but there was a potentially interesting arc to her character that might have explained at least some of her skill/powers - an arc that TLJ pissed all over.
Whilst we lost Han, Luke's story was still untold at the end of TFA and had the potential to be interesting - but TLJ pissed all over that.
Phasma was underused, but we had the potential for her to return and have a more interesting role to play - again, TLJ pissed all over that.
Snoke was a mystery, with countless unanswered questions - TLJ pissed all over that too
I'm sure are starting to see a pattern here.
A lot of what happened in TFA could be forgiven because it was setting up things for future movies to pick up and run with.
TLJ made everything that happened in TFA irrelevant and leaves only one more movie to jump start the story again and sort it all out (assuming they stick with a trilogy).
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 30th August 07:56
Rick_1138 said:
Really cant agree here. The claim that TLJ is any where near as good as Empire is nonsense. I am hearing this come out of a few places and its being jumped on by SW fans, many who remembered seeing the original three in cinemas.
Usually about things like the emperor was a total unknown and went 'nowhere', the rebels were defeated effectively and were clearly going to be overrun by the empire, and the yoda\bespin scenes didn't add anything, but when Jedi came out the holes were filled in, and episode 9 will do the same for TLJ.
The problem is, that argument doesn't hold water for a few reasons, TLJ was badly written, we now know that there was no plan for the three films at all!!
Rian Johnson hadnt seen force awakens apart from a bit of the start and the last 10 minutes while writing TLJ.
The whole start of the film felt wrong when the "your momma" jokes between Po and Hux, it didnt fit with star wars, its a modern day comedy thing thats never been in the films before, its been in Marvel for over 10 years and works as its been the tone since the outset, its not the tone in star wars and jamming it in feels stupid.
Making the bad guys all idiots completely /comedy relief takes away all threat and antagonism the audiance may feel toward our heroes, so we now straight away they will win, as we know they are in no danger.
Destroying Luke as a character was unforgivable in my opinion, turning him into a sociopath that would kill his nephew because he 'might!' turn bad, this is the man who felt the good in the most evil man in the universe, darth vader.
Also, why did Luke leave a map for folk to find him if he in no way wanted to help his friends and family ever again.
Hyperspace weapons break star wars. It looked cool, and in the cinema i was like "That looked cool", then about 10 seconds later i went, hang on, why didnt the rebels just fire a droid flown x-wing into the death star at hyperspeed and break it in two....
Also the biggest issue i have, at the end, there are about 20-30 rebels left, in the falcon, to fight what as far as we are led to believe the first order is as powerful as the old empire...how exactly are they not going to lose...instantly.
Oh yeah, Rey, the most powerful untrained jedi in all existance, she'll sort it all right out.
Dont get me wrong, if you want to like it, like it. But it is not better than Empire which is seen by many critics and fans alike as one of the best films made, with a tight story and good characters.
yes its a fantasy, but that doesnt forgive meandering story, mary sue\ gary stu tropes and jamming modern day humour and politics into a setting that never had it before in a way that was so overt and felt shoehorned in.
Also we know for a fact that the film is being overseen by people who despise the old fandom. This same fandom who made star wars a 40 year $4 billion franchise, i can guarantee they wont attract a loyal franchise with this new all over the place storytelling.
(P.S. this may be me getting wound up as i type....apologies for wall of text ravings...)
Agreed 100%.Usually about things like the emperor was a total unknown and went 'nowhere', the rebels were defeated effectively and were clearly going to be overrun by the empire, and the yoda\bespin scenes didn't add anything, but when Jedi came out the holes were filled in, and episode 9 will do the same for TLJ.
The problem is, that argument doesn't hold water for a few reasons, TLJ was badly written, we now know that there was no plan for the three films at all!!
Rian Johnson hadnt seen force awakens apart from a bit of the start and the last 10 minutes while writing TLJ.
The whole start of the film felt wrong when the "your momma" jokes between Po and Hux, it didnt fit with star wars, its a modern day comedy thing thats never been in the films before, its been in Marvel for over 10 years and works as its been the tone since the outset, its not the tone in star wars and jamming it in feels stupid.
Making the bad guys all idiots completely /comedy relief takes away all threat and antagonism the audiance may feel toward our heroes, so we now straight away they will win, as we know they are in no danger.
Destroying Luke as a character was unforgivable in my opinion, turning him into a sociopath that would kill his nephew because he 'might!' turn bad, this is the man who felt the good in the most evil man in the universe, darth vader.
Also, why did Luke leave a map for folk to find him if he in no way wanted to help his friends and family ever again.
Hyperspace weapons break star wars. It looked cool, and in the cinema i was like "That looked cool", then about 10 seconds later i went, hang on, why didnt the rebels just fire a droid flown x-wing into the death star at hyperspeed and break it in two....
Also the biggest issue i have, at the end, there are about 20-30 rebels left, in the falcon, to fight what as far as we are led to believe the first order is as powerful as the old empire...how exactly are they not going to lose...instantly.
Oh yeah, Rey, the most powerful untrained jedi in all existance, she'll sort it all right out.
Dont get me wrong, if you want to like it, like it. But it is not better than Empire which is seen by many critics and fans alike as one of the best films made, with a tight story and good characters.
yes its a fantasy, but that doesnt forgive meandering story, mary sue\ gary stu tropes and jamming modern day humour and politics into a setting that never had it before in a way that was so overt and felt shoehorned in.
Also we know for a fact that the film is being overseen by people who despise the old fandom. This same fandom who made star wars a 40 year $4 billion franchise, i can guarantee they wont attract a loyal franchise with this new all over the place storytelling.
(P.S. this may be me getting wound up as i type....apologies for wall of text ravings...)
TLJ wasn't a Star Wars film. Its miles behind Rouge One and Solo.
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