The World at War
Discussion
Smiler. said:
MartG said:
oilbethere said:
Without sounding like a Labour party member it annoys me how the Jewish death numbers are always quoted as the be all and end all. Quick Google estimates 70-80 million overall deaths of everyone sadly involved.
The difference being that the 6 million Jews ( and other minorities ) were German civilian citizens killed by their own governmentHitler & his cronies weren't the only ones with such aspirations, but probably not seen for a few decades since the Turks with the Armenians (shhhh) & one with far greater numbers.
The Germans formally recorded and monitored their crimes against the Jewish (and other) people, which is why there is more awareness of it. The Japanese kept few records and did a more effective job of covering things up in China, hence less reportage in the West today.
Wills2 said:
It's a great series and I love the fact that they interviewed lots of senior people that were at the heart of it on all sides, however I've never understood how Albert Speer managed to escape the gallows to be interviewed in the first place.
Speer was the only defendant at Nuremberg who acknowledged what the Nazi regime did and expressed remorse. Added to that, there is substantial evidence that he ignored and, in some cases, countermanded Hitler's orders in the latter stages of the war.There has always been a debate as to whether he was genuinely remorseful or whether it was an act to save his neck.
The 6 million Jews who died were mainly citizens of other countries than Germany. Poles, French,Hungarians and so on. The genocide was concentrated from 1941 to 1945 and went almost to the end of the war. The Hungarians survived until 1945 before they were wiped out.
I think the unique thing about the Holocaust was it’s pure focus on wiping out a specific ethnicity and the industrialization of the process. It was a government program.
The German plan was then to enslave the Slavs in the area known as the Greater givernment to provide agricultural resources to the victorious Reich.
Yes , many millions died , maybe 70 million in total but not with the same deliberate extermination objective. Stalin of course was a mass killer but the objective was to instil mass terror and bring the country to heel under his vision.
In the end Germany lost about 25% of her pre war territory to Poland. All renamed now which is why Prussia no longer exists.
I loved the series when it came out. Outstanding television.
I think the unique thing about the Holocaust was it’s pure focus on wiping out a specific ethnicity and the industrialization of the process. It was a government program.
The German plan was then to enslave the Slavs in the area known as the Greater givernment to provide agricultural resources to the victorious Reich.
Yes , many millions died , maybe 70 million in total but not with the same deliberate extermination objective. Stalin of course was a mass killer but the objective was to instil mass terror and bring the country to heel under his vision.
In the end Germany lost about 25% of her pre war territory to Poland. All renamed now which is why Prussia no longer exists.
I loved the series when it came out. Outstanding television.
ClaphamGT3 said:
Wills2 said:
It's a great series and I love the fact that they interviewed lots of senior people that were at the heart of it on all sides, however I've never understood how Albert Speer managed to escape the gallows to be interviewed in the first place.
Speer was the only defendant at Nuremberg who acknowledged what the Nazi regime did and expressed remorse. Added to that, there is substantial evidence that he ignored and, in some cases, countermanded Hitler's orders in the latter stages of the war.There has always been a debate as to whether he was genuinely remorseful or whether it was an act to save his neck.
He was very lucky....that the court took his answers as truthful especially when he denied knowledge of the Holocaust despite the evidence that he had worked thousands to death as slave labour in his factories.
Choosing to turn against the party/regime during the trial helped his cause as well spilling the beans to Nitze but I still don't understand the decision as he deserved to swing as much as the rest.
Elroy Blue said:
Germany's loss rate in the final months of the war was horrific. They suffered around 2.5 million military dead from 1939 to the end of 1944. In the last five months of 1945, they lost 1.5 million. Hitler's refusal to surrender was a complete catastrophe for Germany.
Berlin was utterly destroyed,,,some estimates of 600,000 dead in Battle of Berlin. 95% of city razed. Hard to believe if you see it now, but I recall visiting it in the sixties as a young man and the evidence of the war was everywhere.
My father joined up in late 1938 to rid the world of the nazi scourge but he said that he did not believe the rumours of death camps then.
When my parents moved I helped my Dad clear his garage and I found a copy of the Sketch, browned with age, and it showed pictures of a death camp - can't remember which apart from it being liberated by the Americans - and my father realised he was wrong. He could not believe people could be that evil, but the evidence was there.
The various numbers quoted on this thread of other deaths in the war are not really relevant to the situation in the death camps and previously. There were, according to the programme, 2m deaths by shooting and 4m by the gas chambers, that's not solely of Jews but others as well whose life was seen as likely to compromise the Aryan race.
There are arguments as to the number being greater but I think this misses the important point; the deaths were deliberate. People whom you might have sat next to on a bus were those who organised and assisted with the slaughter. They looked the same as us yet were such men and women.
The episode got to me. I wondered how my father felt to have refused to believe that anyone could be that cruel and then be confronted by his error. No blame could be attached to him.
It seems clear that this could happen again in western Europe. Let's face it, similar situations have continued across the world since the end of the war.
My father-in-law was a prisoner in Malaya, taken into custody by the Japanese with his unit and handed over to the Koreans who were every bit as evil. He was the only survivor. Yet, as my father said, the Germans who were taken as prisoners in WWI were treated as honoured guests. Many, the majority in fact, stayed in Japan after the armistice because they felt part of the Japanese society. There were a number of German pubs in Japan that my uncles, the majority in the merchant navy, went to.
Yet 20 years later they were guilty of the Rape of Nanking. That was ghastly.
The deaths in the camps were horrific of themselves, real nightmare stuff. What is also shocking is that these were committed by Germans. I knew lots of Germans, and had a German girlfriend: they are just like us. The implication is that the death camps could have been run by us.
War is hell because of us.
When my parents moved I helped my Dad clear his garage and I found a copy of the Sketch, browned with age, and it showed pictures of a death camp - can't remember which apart from it being liberated by the Americans - and my father realised he was wrong. He could not believe people could be that evil, but the evidence was there.
The various numbers quoted on this thread of other deaths in the war are not really relevant to the situation in the death camps and previously. There were, according to the programme, 2m deaths by shooting and 4m by the gas chambers, that's not solely of Jews but others as well whose life was seen as likely to compromise the Aryan race.
There are arguments as to the number being greater but I think this misses the important point; the deaths were deliberate. People whom you might have sat next to on a bus were those who organised and assisted with the slaughter. They looked the same as us yet were such men and women.
The episode got to me. I wondered how my father felt to have refused to believe that anyone could be that cruel and then be confronted by his error. No blame could be attached to him.
It seems clear that this could happen again in western Europe. Let's face it, similar situations have continued across the world since the end of the war.
My father-in-law was a prisoner in Malaya, taken into custody by the Japanese with his unit and handed over to the Koreans who were every bit as evil. He was the only survivor. Yet, as my father said, the Germans who were taken as prisoners in WWI were treated as honoured guests. Many, the majority in fact, stayed in Japan after the armistice because they felt part of the Japanese society. There were a number of German pubs in Japan that my uncles, the majority in the merchant navy, went to.
Yet 20 years later they were guilty of the Rape of Nanking. That was ghastly.
The deaths in the camps were horrific of themselves, real nightmare stuff. What is also shocking is that these were committed by Germans. I knew lots of Germans, and had a German girlfriend: they are just like us. The implication is that the death camps could have been run by us.
War is hell because of us.
Elroy Blue said:
Germany's loss rate in the final months of the war was horrific. They suffered around 2.5 million military dead from 1939 to the end of 1944. In the last five months of 1945, they lost 1.5 million. Hitler's refusal to surrender was a complete catastrophe for Germany.
Yes - the ultimate expression of somebody who refuses to admit they have ever done anything wrong and blame everybody else when it does all go wrong.Now, I wonder can we think of any modern equivalent.....?
I know this might be in the wrong section, but the book "Auschwitz" by Laurance Rees is sobering, often emotional reading. One particular passage in the book actually made me place the book down and cry, it was concerning the actions and cooperation of the French in one instance, where they separated young children from their parents. Truly horrific.
"Prisoners of the Japanese" by Gawan Daws is another good read. My Grandfather was captured at Sentosa fort and put to work on the Railway. He came back alive but was never the same, soon after being demobbed he was arrested for capturing and killing cats in the local neighbourhood, they found them strung up and dried out in his shed where he spent all his time, he put my Mum and Grandmother through some tough times. It gave me an insight into the suffering he and others had. Again, truly sobering and emotional, after reading it I actually felt hostile towards the Japanese for a while.
Again, apologies if not really in the right section but the two books are definitely worth a read.
"Prisoners of the Japanese" by Gawan Daws is another good read. My Grandfather was captured at Sentosa fort and put to work on the Railway. He came back alive but was never the same, soon after being demobbed he was arrested for capturing and killing cats in the local neighbourhood, they found them strung up and dried out in his shed where he spent all his time, he put my Mum and Grandmother through some tough times. It gave me an insight into the suffering he and others had. Again, truly sobering and emotional, after reading it I actually felt hostile towards the Japanese for a while.
Again, apologies if not really in the right section but the two books are definitely worth a read.
Eric Mc said:
Elroy Blue said:
Germany's loss rate in the final months of the war was horrific. They suffered around 2.5 million military dead from 1939 to the end of 1944. In the last five months of 1945, they lost 1.5 million. Hitler's refusal to surrender was a complete catastrophe for Germany.
Yes - the ultimate expression of somebody who refuses to admit they have ever done anything wrong and blame everybody else when it does all go wrong.Now, I wonder can we think of any modern equivalent.....?
Responsible for 1000's of deaths including his fellow countrymen and still thinks he was right.
I remember being glued to this as a kid.. later on often watching re-runs and related content on Sky etc...
Now in my mid forties, having travelled the world and seen other world views... I would recommend, if anyone is interested, to supplement The World at War with two terrific books:
All Hell Let Loose: Max Hastings
Fatefull Choices: Ian Kershaw (suggested to me by the son of German General)
These books turned everything I thought to be true on its head..
Now in my mid forties, having travelled the world and seen other world views... I would recommend, if anyone is interested, to supplement The World at War with two terrific books:
All Hell Let Loose: Max Hastings
Fatefull Choices: Ian Kershaw (suggested to me by the son of German General)
These books turned everything I thought to be true on its head..
AndrewCrown said:
I remember being glued to this as a kid.. later on often watching re-runs and related content on Sky etc...
Now in my mid forties, having travelled the world and seen other world views... I would recommend, if anyone is interested, to supplement The World at War with two terrific books:
All Hell Let Loose: Max Hastings
Fatefull Choices: Ian Kershaw (suggested to me by the son of German General)
These books turned everything I thought to be true on its head..
All history is one-sided. That's the nature of it. It doesn't make any side wrong. It is always worth the effort to read about British history from the point of view of others. It can be equally revealing to read about history from the pov of those from 'our' side who see things differently, for whatever reason. Slaughterhouse-Five anyone? There was someone on PH who justified the Kingsmill massacre. Now in my mid forties, having travelled the world and seen other world views... I would recommend, if anyone is interested, to supplement The World at War with two terrific books:
All Hell Let Loose: Max Hastings
Fatefull Choices: Ian Kershaw (suggested to me by the son of German General)
These books turned everything I thought to be true on its head..
That said, there are some things that transcend points of view. I fail to see another side to the death camps.
There is little that's true in history beyond dates and possibly names; there are just different voices.
There's argument about the numbers killed in the death camps and on forced labour. 15-20 million seems to have something of a consensus but I think such arguments miss the point. One million? Six million? Would either of these figures take anything away from the horror?
Slaughterhouse-Five has been criticised for suggesting there were 135,000 deaths from the firebombing, used as a reason to ban the book in the god-forsaken middle America - that plus the mention of gay soldiers and its anti, or perhaps negative, religion aspect. The 'true' number has been put at around 50,000. The question 'So?' springs to mind. And so it goes I suppose.
I'd advise everyone to read Slaughterhouse-Five. It's not easy to fathom, at least it wasn't for me, and took three goes to get a grip on it. I didn't change my view on carpet bombing as I'd been told about it from my rather pacifist-leaning father, but it certainly gives a reader something to think about.
The thing is, though, that we will do it all again, next time with bigger weapons.
The World at War is an amazing series. Only thing that grates on me is the artificially added sound effects to silent film stock.
I'm going to be accused of wild antisemitism at this point no doubt, but while I am very interested in the combat history of WW2, I'm less interested in the history of the Holocaust that gets included.
It happened during the war, but it wasn't really military action.
I remember when we started doing WW2 at school, we rattled through the war side of it in about ten minutes and spent the rest of the module talking about the concentration camps. I'm sure some of my classmates emerged very confused about how the Nazis actually lost.
I'm going to be accused of wild antisemitism at this point no doubt, but while I am very interested in the combat history of WW2, I'm less interested in the history of the Holocaust that gets included.
It happened during the war, but it wasn't really military action.
I remember when we started doing WW2 at school, we rattled through the war side of it in about ten minutes and spent the rest of the module talking about the concentration camps. I'm sure some of my classmates emerged very confused about how the Nazis actually lost.
Johnnytheboy said:
The World at War is an amazing series. Only thing that grates on me is the artificially added sound effects to silent film stock.
I'm going to be accused of wild antisemitism at this point no doubt, but while I am very interested in the combat history of WW2, I'm less interested in the history of the Holocaust that gets included.
It happened during the war, but it wasn't really military action.
I remember when we started doing WW2 at school, we rattled through the war side of it in about ten minutes and spent the rest of the module talking about the concentration camps. I'm sure some of my classmates emerged very confused about how the Nazis actually lost.
The "military action" was the result of the policy of each side. You can't just look on the "bang-bang" bit in isolation - it all happened because of the desires of each nation and the strategies chosen to achieve those desires.I'm going to be accused of wild antisemitism at this point no doubt, but while I am very interested in the combat history of WW2, I'm less interested in the history of the Holocaust that gets included.
It happened during the war, but it wasn't really military action.
I remember when we started doing WW2 at school, we rattled through the war side of it in about ten minutes and spent the rest of the module talking about the concentration camps. I'm sure some of my classmates emerged very confused about how the Nazis actually lost.
The extermination camps were part and parcel of the ideology of the Nazi regime - although Nazi policies were often "on the hoof" and not as formally planned out as many might have assumed. You have to look at them as the extremely logical outcome of a thought process that formed the essential core beliefs of Nazism - even if the notion of a death camp would not have been on a Nazi official's agenda in (say) 1935. By 1944, the idea had been normalised and they were able to exercise this extermination policy stating fully worked out justifications - as far as they were concerned.
That is the truly scary aspect of The Holocaust. It's not that it happened, it's that it happened in a country which was looked on as advanced in culture, science, philosophy, art and technology.
Johnnytheboy said:
The World at War is an amazing series. Only thing that grates on me is the artificially added sound effects to silent film stock.
I'm going to be accused of wild antisemitism at this point no doubt, but while I am very interested in the combat history of WW2, I'm less interested in the history of the Holocaust that gets included.
It happened during the war, but it wasn't really military action.
I remember when we started doing WW2 at school, we rattled through the war side of it in about ten minutes and spent the rest of the module talking about the concentration camps. I'm sure some of my classmates emerged very confused about how the Nazis actually lost.
I don't think you are being Antisemitic, but the Holocaust is bound up in the history of the war. It is part of Hitler's psyche and an extreme expression of a malaise that stains the souls of humanity, whether it is hatred based on ideology, religion, gender, orientation or any other spurious reason to fear or hate another human being. It is hard coded into our DNA it helped us survive as hunter gatherers when strangers appeared and would probably make off with our women, crops, beasts or lives but in the modern world it holds us in the dark ages when we fail to acknowledge or understand this instinctive behaviour. Also the diversion of German resources from "the war effort" was significant as was the intellectual losses of Jewish Scientists and Engineers.I'm going to be accused of wild antisemitism at this point no doubt, but while I am very interested in the combat history of WW2, I'm less interested in the history of the Holocaust that gets included.
It happened during the war, but it wasn't really military action.
I remember when we started doing WW2 at school, we rattled through the war side of it in about ten minutes and spent the rest of the module talking about the concentration camps. I'm sure some of my classmates emerged very confused about how the Nazis actually lost.
In short, whilst it is not as "interesting" per se, it is vital to the understanding of the war against Germany to include it in a history of the conflict.
And back on the OP, the only series I have seen since that approaches the impact of this one is the recent Vietnam War series directed by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick.
Rumblestripe said:
Also the diversion of German resources from "the war effort" was significant as was the intellectual losses of Jewish Scientists and Engineers.
This is an aspect that has not, to my knowledge, received the coverage it deserves. The extra manpower aspect alone is enough to make a substantial difference to the process of the war. The intellectual loss, not only of Jews of course, might have changed the rate of development of, for instance, the heavy water experiments.Rumblestripe said:
And back on the OP, the only series I have seen since that approaches the impact of this one is the recent Vietnam War series directed by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick.
I know people really rate it but I just found it hard to get into. It might be as I’ve known people who were involved in WW2 so my natural interest was already there whereas I don’t know much more about Vietnam than what a few movies and Bruce Springsteen told me.Or I’m too thick to get the program.
AndrewCrown said:
I remember being glued to this as a kid.. later on often watching re-runs and related content on Sky etc...
Now in my mid forties, having travelled the world and seen other world views... I would recommend, if anyone is interested, to supplement The World at War with two terrific books:
All Hell Let Loose: Max Hastings
Fatefull Choices: Ian Kershaw (suggested to me by the son of German General)
These books turned everything I thought to be true on its head..
Can you elucidate?Now in my mid forties, having travelled the world and seen other world views... I would recommend, if anyone is interested, to supplement The World at War with two terrific books:
All Hell Let Loose: Max Hastings
Fatefull Choices: Ian Kershaw (suggested to me by the son of German General)
These books turned everything I thought to be true on its head..
texaxile said:
I know this might be in the wrong section, but the book "Auschwitz" by Laurance Rees is sobering, often emotional reading. One particular passage in the book actually made me place the book down and cry, it was concerning the actions and cooperation of the French in one instance, where they separated young children from their parents. Truly horrific.
I was in a large military museum in NOLA this year, it was a walk through type building that covered everything, by the time I got to the Pacific parts of the war it was getting grim, and the holocaust bit I was emotionally involved, it was very disheartening. I had to have a some time to allow my head to let the thoughts/emotions flow out.Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff