Army Abuse of Iraqi 'Appalling'
Discussion
To understand how these things happen you need to put yourself into the soldiers boots.
You are away from home for several months. You don't know what's happening with your family other than half an hours chat, a very dodgy Internet, and a few letters. You have no privacy, no where to reflect and your sleep pattern is destroyed by frequent mortar attacks, guard duties, explosions, and your roomates continuous farting/snoring. When you get up you have f
k-all comforts and everything is covered in dust and st.
When you start your duty you find yourself in a situation where your adrenaline is sky-high for days straight. You then get contacted and you end up watching your mates (guys who you are closer too than your family) hurt, lose limbs, or die. Meanwhile, your instincts and urges to gain retribution are hamstrung by Rules Of Engagement and a lack of identifiable targets. You are subjected to a series of attacks where the enemy will not face you, but instead hide from you and attack via a remote control. You have to just sit there and suck it up; over and over again.
Whilst you sit there grinding your teeth, face down in a stty patch of desert after your vehicle has just lost a wheel, and your mucker on top cover has just lost half his face; you see a group of unarmed men who you know have just detonated that IED. You cannot spare anyone to arrest them, and you cannot engage them. So instead you watch them through your sights laughing at you, to the soundtrack of your mates screams.
You also know that if the situation was reversed, ie you were unarmed and they had eyes on you, then you'd either go down in a hail of incoming or you'd find yourself on the Internet getting an extreme haircut following several days of mutilating, physical, psychological and sexual torture. The sort of torture where you get raped with the barrel of a rifle, have body parts hacked off and bones broken.
So, you return to base with the weight of the world on your shoulders and the boss comes up and says "You're guarding some prisoners" So you stag on with the detainees, and your feelings towards these cowards rears it ugly head. The frustration, anger, helplessness, and adrenaline hangover.
95% of squaddies supress this and carry on with decency and respect. Why? Because we are disciplined and well trained. The remaining 5% are the ones you cannot weed out, and the slightly tapped individuals present in any society.
For every story of torture and abuse, there are thousands of unreported instances of British medics treating Taliban fighters, of NATO troops rebuilding local amenities, of coalition forces being injured or killed whilst protecting civilians.
The incident that sums up the enemy for me happened about 2 years ago in Sangin (I think). Taliban entered the town, found the prettiest little girl they could, and then kneecapped her. Her father was ordered to take the girl to the British outpost for medical aid. The Brits called for a medevac for the little girl and the chopper was ambushed. See, the TB knew the Brits would pull out the stops for a child and did all this to try and bring down a chopper.
That is the nature of the enemy we fight, and despite the occasional story of violence or abuse, we would or could never sink as low as that scum.
You are away from home for several months. You don't know what's happening with your family other than half an hours chat, a very dodgy Internet, and a few letters. You have no privacy, no where to reflect and your sleep pattern is destroyed by frequent mortar attacks, guard duties, explosions, and your roomates continuous farting/snoring. When you get up you have f
k-all comforts and everything is covered in dust and st.When you start your duty you find yourself in a situation where your adrenaline is sky-high for days straight. You then get contacted and you end up watching your mates (guys who you are closer too than your family) hurt, lose limbs, or die. Meanwhile, your instincts and urges to gain retribution are hamstrung by Rules Of Engagement and a lack of identifiable targets. You are subjected to a series of attacks where the enemy will not face you, but instead hide from you and attack via a remote control. You have to just sit there and suck it up; over and over again.
Whilst you sit there grinding your teeth, face down in a s
tty patch of desert after your vehicle has just lost a wheel, and your mucker on top cover has just lost half his face; you see a group of unarmed men who you know have just detonated that IED. You cannot spare anyone to arrest them, and you cannot engage them. So instead you watch them through your sights laughing at you, to the soundtrack of your mates screams.You also know that if the situation was reversed, ie you were unarmed and they had eyes on you, then you'd either go down in a hail of incoming or you'd find yourself on the Internet getting an extreme haircut following several days of mutilating, physical, psychological and sexual torture. The sort of torture where you get raped with the barrel of a rifle, have body parts hacked off and bones broken.
So, you return to base with the weight of the world on your shoulders and the boss comes up and says "You're guarding some prisoners" So you stag on with the detainees, and your feelings towards these cowards rears it ugly head. The frustration, anger, helplessness, and adrenaline hangover.
95% of squaddies supress this and carry on with decency and respect. Why? Because we are disciplined and well trained. The remaining 5% are the ones you cannot weed out, and the slightly tapped individuals present in any society.
For every story of torture and abuse, there are thousands of unreported instances of British medics treating Taliban fighters, of NATO troops rebuilding local amenities, of coalition forces being injured or killed whilst protecting civilians.
The incident that sums up the enemy for me happened about 2 years ago in Sangin (I think). Taliban entered the town, found the prettiest little girl they could, and then kneecapped her. Her father was ordered to take the girl to the British outpost for medical aid. The Brits called for a medevac for the little girl and the chopper was ambushed. See, the TB knew the Brits would pull out the stops for a child and did all this to try and bring down a chopper.
That is the nature of the enemy we fight, and despite the occasional story of violence or abuse, we would or could never sink as low as that scum.
bmw535i said:
Mr Dave said:
Stuff
To anyone with half an ounce of intelligence it is clearly evident that this was the actions of a few and is not widespread throughout the Army. I am currently serving and have been to all recent theatres of operations and have never seen any of this sort of activity. In some situations peisoners have to be dealt with robustly - it's war and those that haven't experienced it will not understand the reality of it and therefore are not qualified to pass judgement (In my opinion). I completely accept that there have been incidents where civilians have been abused etc, but this is by no means commonplace.
The problem is that uniform, if you approached me in the street in uniform I wouldn't see you as you, I would see a soldier. I know better than that but still its what I would do. You dont hear about colin smith and mark brown on operations in afghanistan, you hear about the army in afghanistan, you dont hear about the lads on patrol, you hear about an army patrol. So to the public its not the actions of a small few, it is the actions of the army.
I know what Im trying to say but cant really explain it. I hope you can see what im getting at and I hope you dont see me as criticising the actions of any in the armed forces, just that it is bad PR and that justifying it by saying the other guys are worse doesnt work. Where does that justification stop?
bmw5351 said:
Marvin Hagler has said he has no experience of combat. He has said that British soldiers can be regarded as terrorists, that they are joining the Army to carry out their "Saw" and "Hostel" typr fantasies, that they act like children, that they are cowards (whether they were involved or not).
He says that because he is a . bmw535i said:
It amazes me how people who have never had any experience of combat, military life or contact with terrorists can comment on these subjects.
Just because they havent experienced it doesnt mean they cant have an interest. Many people comment on banks and spaceflight and so on even though they have direct experience of it. Jimbeaux said:
Mr Dave said:
Stuff
Those who did wrong will be punished if found guilty; something that is unheard of (at least publicly) in non-western militaries.As to what non-western militaries do, that doesnt affect the british armies reputation being damaged internationally by this.
Who is to say that having this or something similar happen to a friend/cousin/uncle/neighbour of theirs didnt make someone decide to have a potshot at a british patrol or tell insurgents what knowledge they had or something like that.
Its bad PR and could even put any one of the thousands of decent servicemen or women at future risk.
and 
okgo said:
War isn't pretty and soft.
Mind you I do think more could be done to ensure we don't recruit complete fkheads, of which there seems to be plenty having gone out with a bunch of recent marines.
Are you a civilian? If so it's not surprising that you will not understand military mentality and therefore dislike it when the silly sMind you I do think more could be done to ensure we don't recruit complete f
kheads, of which there seems to be plenty having gone out with a bunch of recent marines. t starts loljimnicebutdim said:
The incident that sums up the enemy for me happened about 2 years ago in Sangin (I think). Taliban entered the town, found the prettiest little girl they could, and then kneecapped her. Her father was ordered to take the girl to the British outpost for medical aid. The Brits called for a medevac for the little girl and the chopper was ambushed. See, the TB knew the Brits would pull out the stops for a child and did all this to try and bring down a chopper.
That is the nature of the enemy we fight, and despite the occasional story of violence or abuse, we would or could never sink as low as that scum.
Jesus. Never heard of anything like that and it certainly sums up the enemy.That is the nature of the enemy we fight, and despite the occasional story of violence or abuse, we would or could never sink as low as that scum.
Good luck out there, hope that whoever responsible for that was suitably dealt with.
southendpier said:
If you do not accept that the army is a carreer option for poorly qualified, aggressive young men/kids (as well as the vast array of other people or differing abilities that join) then I'm not sure what to say.
A lot of this thread (with comments on both sides) is characterised by people reacting to comments and incorrectly taking them out of context and applying them generally.
1. You're an idiot if you think this. You obviously don't know very many soldiers. The Army is a lot harder to get into thatn you could ever imagine.A lot of this thread (with comments on both sides) is characterised by people reacting to comments and incorrectly taking them out of context and applying them generally.
2. I'm not really sure how your first comment can be taken out of context. It seems evident that you have a low opinion of soldiers and that is your prerogative I guess. However, I do not fight for the reasons you suggest. I'm not really sure how I can put it another way.......
MR. Dave, I do agree that people can have an opinion/point of view on the subject. However, if they know nothing of the subject they talk about apart from a slanted view from a media/dodgy website perspective, then they will only succeed in making themselves look like a tit. It seems that Marvin is now trying to retract/apologise for some of his early posts which is of course commendable. He is still a bellend though who lost all credibility as soon as the thread started.
There are so many things that I see in the media about the military that I know 100% to be absolute crap.
There are so many things that I see in the media about the military that I know 100% to be absolute crap.
jimnicebutdim said:
To understand how these things happen you need to put yourself into the soldiers boots.
.....................................................That is the nature of the enemy we fight, and despite the occasional story of violence or abuse, we would or could never sink as low as that scum.
I don't see what the point of this story is, the head of the inquiry Sir William Gage blamed.....................................................That is the nature of the enemy we fight, and despite the occasional story of violence or abuse, we would or could never sink as low as that scum.
" corporate failure at the Ministry of Defence for the use of banned interrogation methods in Iraq."
Those banned interrogation methods caused the death of an innocent civilian, his two children are now orphans. The conclusion of the enquiry is to enact 72 changes to interrogation procedures to (presumably) ensure this doesn't happen in future.
Marvin Hagler said:
I have apologised already for my commments earlier in the thread. I have also explained how I would have started the thread differently (by focusing on bad apples, rather than blame the full army).
Yes some of my comments could have been posted with more thought, but I am honest enough to acknowledge that and move forward and learn from the experience. I am young and continually learning, and this thread serves as an experience for me to discuss things in a fairer and calmer manner, with a balanced (rather than one-sided) approach in the future.
Fair enough Marvin. Just make sure you do your own research to find out the truth, because there's a lot of rubbish out there.Yes some of my comments could have been posted with more thought, but I am honest enough to acknowledge that and move forward and learn from the experience. I am young and continually learning, and this thread serves as an experience for me to discuss things in a fairer and calmer manner, with a balanced (rather than one-sided) approach in the future.
Buggles said:
As far as I remember, okgo is ex military. I may be wrong.
No although I look like one I'm actual mere civilian. And the silly st as you put it does not describe the crude, racist, completely thick banter I had to endure that evening. Still no surprise when you look who they have to look up to in their training team, racist, small minded, and are their to brainwash the naive. That's not to say all are like that, but this bunch won't be knocking on Mensa's door anytime soon.
Blue Oval84 said:
jimnicebutdim said:
The incident that sums up the enemy for me happened about 2 years ago in Sangin (I think). Taliban entered the town, found the prettiest little girl they could, and then kneecapped her. Her father was ordered to take the girl to the British outpost for medical aid. The Brits called for a medevac for the little girl and the chopper was ambushed. See, the TB knew the Brits would pull out the stops for a child and did all this to try and bring down a chopper.
That is the nature of the enemy we fight, and despite the occasional story of violence or abuse, we would or could never sink as low as that scum.
Jesus. Never heard of anything like that and it certainly sums up the enemy.That is the nature of the enemy we fight, and despite the occasional story of violence or abuse, we would or could never sink as low as that scum.
Good luck out there, hope that whoever responsible for that was suitably dealt with.
How did the taliban select "the prettiest girl"? Pathans are pretty fanatical about keeping their women secluded, asking them to bring their female kids out would not have met with a willing response.
Why would an injured "pretty girl" have elicited a more urgent response than any other casualty?? I'll be perfectly honest _ i would have thought an injured squaddie would have been the highest priority.
Countdown said:
Why would an injured "pretty girl" have elicited a more urgent response than any other casualty?? I'll be perfectly honest _ i would have thought an injured squaddie would have been the highest priority.
The priority for the treatment of casualties is based on the severity of their injuries. The fact of whether they are civilian, military, enemy etc etc is not a factor. No offence, but this is a prime example of someone making comment when they have no idea of what they are talking about.
Bmw535
No offence taken. I'll happily admit I have no idea about casevac operations but this story doesn't make sense.
For example why is the prettiness relevant?
And, when the dad takes her to the British Army, when he tells them the Taliban kneecapped her and told him to take her to them for medical aid , theyre not going to smell a rat??
No offence taken. I'll happily admit I have no idea about casevac operations but this story doesn't make sense.
For example why is the prettiness relevant?
And, when the dad takes her to the British Army, when he tells them the Taliban kneecapped her and told him to take her to them for medical aid , theyre not going to smell a rat??
Countdown said:
Bmw535
No offence taken. I'll happily admit I have no idea about casevac operations but this story doesn't make sense.
For example why is the prettiness relevant?
And, when the dad takes her to the British Army, when he tells them the Taliban kneecapped her and told him to take her to them for medical aid , theyre not going to smell a rat??
I'm afraid I can't comment as I don't know the full circumstances of the this particular incident. No offence taken. I'll happily admit I have no idea about casevac operations but this story doesn't make sense.
For example why is the prettiness relevant?
And, when the dad takes her to the British Army, when he tells them the Taliban kneecapped her and told him to take her to them for medical aid , theyre not going to smell a rat??
However, it is commonplace for the taliban to use children as suicide bombers and "bait" to create ambush situtions. Whether or not a rat is smelt, soldiers are still duty bound to administer first aid when there is a casualty.
bmw535i said:
1. You're an idiot if you think this. You obviously don't know very many soldiers. The Army is a lot harder to get into thatn you could ever imagine.
2. I'm not really sure how your first comment can be taken out of context. It seems evident that you have a low opinion of soldiers and that is your prerogative I guess. However, I do not fight for the reasons you suggest. I'm not really sure how I can put it another way.......
No qualifications are required to get into the army. 2. I'm not really sure how your first comment can be taken out of context. It seems evident that you have a low opinion of soldiers and that is your prerogative I guess. However, I do not fight for the reasons you suggest. I'm not really sure how I can put it another way.......
Yet i am the idiot.
I do know people, and have employed people who have done tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of my view obviously come from my opinion of them and the stories they tell.
bmw535i said:
Wrong
ETA - qualifications are required for large sectors of the Army.
Of course, I never claimed otherwise. Basic infantry no qualifications are required. It is one of the horrible aspects of society that puts young, maliable kids through that processs. But you could argue it's "necessary" I suppose and has always been an aspect of the military. People generally become more liberal and tolerant as they get older - despite what you might read on PH - so you would find it hard to run an army otherwise.ETA - qualifications are required for large sectors of the Army.
Edited by bmw535i on Monday 12th September 09:16
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