Ultimatum EU Blueprint - The Final Solution
Discussion
wc98 said:
Northern Munkee said:
The Sun, the Wail and Express are all reporting it, and the Visegrad group of countries (Poland, Slovakia, Czech, Hungary) are furious. The Sun reporting as "Foreign ministers from France and Germany presented the radical proposals to do away with individual member states’ armies, criminal law systems and central banks, it has been reported."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/1354489/eu-...
Personally I don't think this would've been rolled out now if we'd voted Remain, and we may have been able to avoid some or all it for a while, but the direction of travel is clear. More integration.
And you know what let's say an EU army is created and gets into to trouble in some adventure. We will still be pulled into it as we are all members of NATO and committed to come to their aid. But the EU Army is required to give EU Foreign Policy credibility.
shows the state of the bbc when it takes a rag like the sun to report what they should be reporting. it has turned into a liberal elitist cabal of champagne socialists in an advocacy echo chamber, when it should be representative of the people that pay for it. probably the only organisation ,private or public, that has not one single leave voting full time employee. it really needs pulled apart properly and reassembled with people with a broader perspective on life and politics .https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/1354489/eu-...
Personally I don't think this would've been rolled out now if we'd voted Remain, and we may have been able to avoid some or all it for a while, but the direction of travel is clear. More integration.
And you know what let's say an EU army is created and gets into to trouble in some adventure. We will still be pulled into it as we are all members of NATO and committed to come to their aid. But the EU Army is required to give EU Foreign Policy credibility.
mattmurdock said:
We live in a representative democracy though, and the referendum isn't going to change that.
I didn't suggest it was.Your fallback position seems to be that since our elected representatives signed treaty after treaty that brought us from a trade union with Europe into a political union that that must be what the British people want.
The referendum demonstrates that not to be the case, our MPs are not representing the views of their constituents in an even-handed manner.
skahigh said:
I didn't suggest it was.
Your fallback position seems to be that since our elected representatives signed treaty after treaty that brought us from a trade union with Europe into a political union that that must be what the British people want.
The referendum demonstrates that not to be the case, our MPs are not representing the views of their constituents in an even-handed manner.
This is the bit that I don't understand. Surely we will rely on those same MPs in future to represent and make decisions for us? I'm sure I'm missing something.Your fallback position seems to be that since our elected representatives signed treaty after treaty that brought us from a trade union with Europe into a political union that that must be what the British people want.
The referendum demonstrates that not to be the case, our MPs are not representing the views of their constituents in an even-handed manner.
skahigh said:
I didn't suggest it was.
Your fallback position seems to be that since our elected representatives signed treaty after treaty that brought us from a trade union with Europe into a political union that that must be what the British people want.
The referendum demonstrates that not to be the case, our MPs are not representing the views of their constituents in an even-handed manner.
No, my fallback position is claiming voting us out is a 'vote for democracy' seems to woefully misunderstand that the democracy they are voting for is for the UK government to decide what is best for us, and be accountable for those decisions.Your fallback position seems to be that since our elected representatives signed treaty after treaty that brought us from a trade union with Europe into a political union that that must be what the British people want.
The referendum demonstrates that not to be the case, our MPs are not representing the views of their constituents in an even-handed manner.
Not for a democracy where everyone gets a say in every decision.
If they aren't representing us, then we should vote them out. If we can't vote them out, how is that any different to the 'unelected' EU commissioners?
If we voted them in and they sign treaties on our behalf, surely that is the point of our democratic system?
Mrr T said:
While I would never defend what happened with the Lisbon treaty. The whole idea the EU can force through full integration shows a complete lack of any understanding of the EU or its member countries. To do this the EU would have to have a way of:
1. Changing the German constitutions - it doen't.
2. Convicting Germans to hand money to Greece etc - it doen't.
if it is german and french politicians driving this,and it appears to be so ,i do not think a few technicalities will give them much cause for concern. lets face it, abiding by their own rules in recent years hasn't been a strong point of those running the eu.1. Changing the German constitutions - it doen't.
2. Convicting Germans to hand money to Greece etc - it doen't.
The M.O of the EU is pass what is possible and shelve what it can't.It puts out a strategy document and waits to see which bits are objected too,it then passes or implements the rest of the document.At a later date another document will re-address the objected too strategy and again it goes on.
Make no mistake,the EU will be one superstate,maybe not in my life but it will happen.
Make no mistake,the EU will be one superstate,maybe not in my life but it will happen.
wc98 said:
if it is german and french politicians driving this,and it appears to be so ,i do not think a few technicalities will give them much cause for concern. lets face it, abiding by their own rules in recent years hasn't been a strong point of those running the eu.
Do you seriously believe the EU is going to attempt to force all of the member states into this? How? jjlynn27 said:
wc98 said:
Northern Munkee said:
The Sun, the Wail and Express are all reporting it, and the Visegrad group of countries (Poland, Slovakia, Czech, Hungary) are furious. The Sun reporting as "Foreign ministers from France and Germany presented the radical proposals to do away with individual member states’ armies, criminal law systems and central banks, it has been reported."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/1354489/eu-...
Personally I don't think this would've been rolled out now if we'd voted Remain, and we may have been able to avoid some or all it for a while, but the direction of travel is clear. More integration.
And you know what let's say an EU army is created and gets into to trouble in some adventure. We will still be pulled into it as we are all members of NATO and committed to come to their aid. But the EU Army is required to give EU Foreign Policy credibility.
shows the state of the bbc when it takes a rag like the sun to report what they should be reporting. it has turned into a liberal elitist cabal of champagne socialists in an advocacy echo chamber, when it should be representative of the people that pay for it. probably the only organisation ,private or public, that has not one single leave voting full time employee. it really needs pulled apart properly and reassembled with people with a broader perspective on life and politics .https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/1354489/eu-...
Personally I don't think this would've been rolled out now if we'd voted Remain, and we may have been able to avoid some or all it for a while, but the direction of travel is clear. More integration.
And you know what let's say an EU army is created and gets into to trouble in some adventure. We will still be pulled into it as we are all members of NATO and committed to come to their aid. But the EU Army is required to give EU Foreign Policy credibility.
mattmurdock said:
wc98 said:
if it is german and french politicians driving this,and it appears to be so ,i do not think a few technicalities will give them much cause for concern. lets face it, abiding by their own rules in recent years hasn't been a strong point of those running the eu.
Do you seriously believe the EU is going to attempt to force all of the member states into this? How? It doesn't force it just pursuades and ends up getting its way.
I don't want a Federal Europe which is why I voted Leave.
TeamD said:
mattmurdock said:
The UK was opted out of the vast majority of the fiscal, defense and political union anyway, and the only way that would have changed would have been due to a democratically elected UK government changing it.
Rather like Gordon sneaking in to sign the Lisbon Treaty without any real mandate?jjlynn27 said:
wc98 said:
Northern Munkee said:
The Sun, the Wail and Express are all reporting it, and the Visegrad group of countries (Poland, Slovakia, Czech, Hungary) are furious. The Sun reporting as "Foreign ministers from France and Germany presented the radical proposals to do away with individual member states’ armies, criminal law systems and central banks, it has been reported."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/1354489/eu-...
Personally I don't think this would've been rolled out now if we'd voted Remain, and we may have been able to avoid some or all it for a while, but the direction of travel is clear. More integration.
And you know what let's say an EU army is created and gets into to trouble in some adventure. We will still be pulled into it as we are all members of NATO and committed to come to their aid. But the EU Army is required to give EU Foreign Policy credibility.
shows the state of the bbc when it takes a rag like the sun to report what they should be reporting. it has turned into a liberal elitist cabal of champagne socialists in an advocacy echo chamber, when it should be representative of the people that pay for it. probably the only organisation ,private or public, that has not one single leave voting full time employee. it really needs pulled apart properly and reassembled with people with a broader perspective on life and politics .https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/1354489/eu-...
Personally I don't think this would've been rolled out now if we'd voted Remain, and we may have been able to avoid some or all it for a while, but the direction of travel is clear. More integration.
And you know what let's say an EU army is created and gets into to trouble in some adventure. We will still be pulled into it as we are all members of NATO and committed to come to their aid. But the EU Army is required to give EU Foreign Policy credibility.
AJL308 said:
It didn't force a those countries to join the Euro but if you had mentioned mentione would happen in 1975 you'd have been laughed down as a fantasist.
It doesn't force it just pursuades and ends up getting its way.
I don't want a Federal Europe which is why I voted Leave.
That is the bit I'm struggling to understand.It doesn't force it just pursuades and ends up getting its way.
I don't want a Federal Europe which is why I voted Leave.
If it really only persuades and then gets its own way, then:
a) why is it not going to get its own way in the coming negotiations with the UK?
b) why is a future democratically elected government of the UK not going to simply sign another treaty and take us back in?
If you truly, honestly believe that the EU will always get its own way, and a Federal Europe is an inevitability, then the referendum was completely pointless. Our government will just take us back in anyway sometime in the future.
mattmurdock said:
Do you seriously believe the EU is going to attempt to force all of the member states into this? How?
The French and Germans effectively did away with the Stability and Growth Pact, which they forced all partners to sign so they have form for ignoring treaties when it suits.France & Germanys voting weights currently stand at 29.4% combined and will grow with the exit of the UK so the bottom 22 members with voting weights of just 7.6% down to 0.1% will have little say going forwards. The top 4 European countries will command over 50% of the voting weights so the smaller countries will simply be along for the ride in my view.
Edited by barryrs on Wednesday 29th June 12:26
RizzoTheRat said:
Can you define "this" I've only managed a skim through one of the linked documents so far but not seen anything there that I'd expect to cause other countries to want to leave. What are the actual negative points here?
Funny that everyone seems to choose not to respond to it, maybe I can think of one. Maybe in due time, remaindes will be referred to as "Europeans"
mattmurdock said:
Do you seriously believe the EU is going to attempt to force all of the member states into this? How?
Well the EU got the member states to "agree" to the treaty of Lisbon by by-passing the European electorate. That Treaty created a constitution that contains the concept of ever closer union. I don't think there's anything ambiguous about that.The poorer Eurozone countries are effectively controlled from Brussels already. The Greeks are obviously in the worst situation and basically if the Greek government don't do what the EU wants then they'll pull the plug on them.
The Eurozone countries are the key to all of this. By giving away control of their economy they have effectively given away a lot of other powers too. The continued "success" of the Euro currency will require more integration. Juncker and Merkel have made no secret of this.
Or as the most respected economist of the 20th century,John Maynard Keynes asserted " who controls the currency controls the country"
Federalists have controlled the EU since it's inception and they still do. Under the present political and financial climate they will find it very difficult to make any further gains, but if/when things improve they will take a bit more authority from National governments and give it to Brussels. The Federalist ratchet only turns one way.
mattmurdock said:
AJL308 said:
It didn't force a those countries to join the Euro but if you had mentioned mentione would happen in 1975 you'd have been laughed down as a fantasist.
It doesn't force it just pursuades and ends up getting its way.
I don't want a Federal Europe which is why I voted Leave.
That is the bit I'm struggling to understand.It doesn't force it just pursuades and ends up getting its way.
I don't want a Federal Europe which is why I voted Leave.
If it really only persuades and then gets its own way, then:
a) why is it not going to get its own way in the coming negotiations with the UK?
b) why is a future democratically elected government of the UK not going to simply sign another treaty and take us back in?
If you truly, honestly believe that the EU will always get its own way, and a Federal Europe is an inevitability, then the referendum was completely pointless. Our government will just take us back in anyway sometime in the future.
The EU has published it's 'strategy'. Only an idiot would not be able to translate the political speak into the actual reality of the strategy. But the EU has always been very good at playing the slow, catchy monkey game. It's lifespan is over decades, not the 5 year periods most goverments have to work within. It will wait, if it doesn't get the right answer this year, it will wait until the government has been changed out and it can get the answer it does want.
The last 10-15 years of Labour aligned with a very left leaning socialist set of governments across the whole of Europe. The EU was able to use this to accelerate it's plans significantly and has become used to a swifter pace of power gathering. However, the rise across europe of a few righter wing governments has clipped it's wings and it will need to slow down again, until the stars align across Europe and it can press on again.
But wait it will, this strategy will be left there, it won't be pushed, but it won't be withdrawn either. In a few years time, the EU will start trying to evolve it saying that it's been published strategy for years now, some countries will complain, they'll be offered Hobson choices, they'll all be signed up to it. And bang, European armies under the control of the EU and countries handing their economies over.
Has ever been the EU way.
GoodOlBoy said:
Well the EU got the member states to "agree" to the treaty of Lisbon by by-passing the European electorate. That Treaty created a constitution that contains the concept of ever closer union. I don't think there's anything ambiguous about that.
The poorer Eurozone countries are effectively controlled from Brussels already. The Greeks are obviously in the worst situation and basically if the Greek government don't do what the EU wants then they'll pull the plug on them.
The Eurozone countries are the key to all of this. By giving away control of their economy they have effectively given away a lot of other powers too. The continued "success" of the Euro currency will require more integration. Juncker and Merkel have made no secret of this.
Or as the most respected economist of the 20th century,John Maynard Keynes asserted " who controls the currency controls the country"
Federalists have controlled the EU since it's inception and they still do. Under the present political and financial climate they will find it very difficult to make any further gains, but if/when things improve they will take a bit more authority from National governments and give it to Brussels. The Federalist ratchet only turns one way.
Again though, that doesn't answer the question.The poorer Eurozone countries are effectively controlled from Brussels already. The Greeks are obviously in the worst situation and basically if the Greek government don't do what the EU wants then they'll pull the plug on them.
The Eurozone countries are the key to all of this. By giving away control of their economy they have effectively given away a lot of other powers too. The continued "success" of the Euro currency will require more integration. Juncker and Merkel have made no secret of this.
Or as the most respected economist of the 20th century,John Maynard Keynes asserted " who controls the currency controls the country"
Federalists have controlled the EU since it's inception and they still do. Under the present political and financial climate they will find it very difficult to make any further gains, but if/when things improve they will take a bit more authority from National governments and give it to Brussels. The Federalist ratchet only turns one way.
Given the UK not in the Euro and has an opt-out for pretty much all of the 'Federalist' stuff, how exactly were the EU going to force them into 'ever closer union'?
Given the Treaty of Lisbon was signed by the democratically elected heads of the member states, how was that 'bypassing the views of the electorate'?
Given democratically elected heads of member states can apparently do whatever they like without being held to account (according to the leavers on here) what was the point of the referendum? If the heads of the member states can sign away our sovereignty, why are they not just going to do that in the future?
Northern Munkee said:
I've read them both Bloomberg and the leaked document obtained earlier by the Polish TV station, someone above asked what does (the very dry official speak) document mean, and also people ask why is the BBC not reporting it, "interpret it" for the ordinary man in the street. Now the tabloids are picking it up, boiling it down into plain man on the Clapham Omnibus language, people can understand and the BBC will be pushed into reporting it. Was the point i was making.
Don't you think that those same tabloids will interpret it in the way they want to. They are not exactly equivalent to Reuters, I hope we can agree on that?Piersman2 said:
The EU works on presenting it's members hobson choices. You have to choose one option, and you'd better be sure it's the ones the EU actually wants, because the other choice will be even more detrimental to you.
The EU has published it's 'strategy'. Only an idiot would not be able to translate the political speak into the actual reality of the strategy. But the EU has always been very good at playing the slow, catchy monkey game. It's lifespan is over decades, not the 5 year periods most goverments have to work within. It will wait, if it doesn't get the right answer this year, it will wait until the government has been changed out and it can get the answer it does want.
The last 10-15 years of Labour aligned with a very left leaning socialist set of governments across the whole of Europe. The EU was able to use this to accelerate it's plans significantly and has become used to a swifter pace of power gathering. However, the rise across europe of a few righter wing governments has clipped it's wings and it will need to slow down again, until the stars align across Europe and it can press on again.
But wait it will, this strategy will be left there, it won't be pushed, but it won't be withdrawn either. In a few years time, the EU will start trying to evolve it saying that it's been published strategy for years now, some countries will complain, they'll be offered Hobson choices, they'll all be signed up to it. And bang, European armies under the control of the EU and countries handing their economies over.
Has ever been the EU way.
Again, if you truly, honestly believe that then the whole referendum has been a complete sham, surely? At some point in the future the head of a democratically elected UK government will just sign away our armies and our economy to an EU superstate?The EU has published it's 'strategy'. Only an idiot would not be able to translate the political speak into the actual reality of the strategy. But the EU has always been very good at playing the slow, catchy monkey game. It's lifespan is over decades, not the 5 year periods most goverments have to work within. It will wait, if it doesn't get the right answer this year, it will wait until the government has been changed out and it can get the answer it does want.
The last 10-15 years of Labour aligned with a very left leaning socialist set of governments across the whole of Europe. The EU was able to use this to accelerate it's plans significantly and has become used to a swifter pace of power gathering. However, the rise across europe of a few righter wing governments has clipped it's wings and it will need to slow down again, until the stars align across Europe and it can press on again.
But wait it will, this strategy will be left there, it won't be pushed, but it won't be withdrawn either. In a few years time, the EU will start trying to evolve it saying that it's been published strategy for years now, some countries will complain, they'll be offered Hobson choices, they'll all be signed up to it. And bang, European armies under the control of the EU and countries handing their economies over.
Has ever been the EU way.
If so, there is little point in leaving now.
If not, why on earth would they do it if we had remained in the EU? How is leaving now going to mean they suddenly change their mind? If they offered a referendum now, why would they not offer one in the future?
mattmurdock said:
skahigh said:
I didn't suggest it was.
Your fallback position seems to be that since our elected representatives signed treaty after treaty that brought us from a trade union with Europe into a political union that that must be what the British people want.
The referendum demonstrates that not to be the case, our MPs are not representing the views of their constituents in an even-handed manner.
No, my fallback position is claiming voting us out is a 'vote for democracy' seems to woefully misunderstand that the democracy they are voting for is for the UK government to decide what is best for us, and be accountable for those decisions.Your fallback position seems to be that since our elected representatives signed treaty after treaty that brought us from a trade union with Europe into a political union that that must be what the British people want.
The referendum demonstrates that not to be the case, our MPs are not representing the views of their constituents in an even-handed manner.
Not for a democracy where everyone gets a say in every decision.
If they aren't representing us, then we should vote them out. If we can't vote them out, how is that any different to the 'unelected' EU commissioners?
If we voted them in and they sign treaties on our behalf, surely that is the point of our democratic system?
In our form of democracy, MPs do not represent the views of the constituents. They vote according to their own beliefs. You vote in a person you trust to make decisions for you. In opting for a referendum, Cameron has abrogated his responsibilities.
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