Political campaigns have become smarter, but Lush UK?
Discussion
La Liga said:
with pretty much agree with all of that.
Distilling a complex message into a simple visual representation is no easy task. Good marketing is effective because it doesn't require effort. It appeals to effortless instinctive and subconscious judgements. Making people think is effortful and people are lazy so they'll rely on their initial impression and judgement to draw a conclusion about its meaning.
Personally I don't have an issue with it. If Lush wish to focus on an issue of police wrong-doing that they have a link with then that's down to their discretion.
I find it odd that it's taken such prominence as regardless of the political / ethical leaning of the business, it still needs to sell its products. I don't see how this supports that from a business point of view.
Perhaps it was intended to be deliberately provocative and adhere to the old, "No publicity is bad publicity".
I also agree with that.Distilling a complex message into a simple visual representation is no easy task. Good marketing is effective because it doesn't require effort. It appeals to effortless instinctive and subconscious judgements. Making people think is effortful and people are lazy so they'll rely on their initial impression and judgement to draw a conclusion about its meaning.
Personally I don't have an issue with it. If Lush wish to focus on an issue of police wrong-doing that they have a link with then that's down to their discretion.
I find it odd that it's taken such prominence as regardless of the political / ethical leaning of the business, it still needs to sell its products. I don't see how this supports that from a business point of view.
Perhaps it was intended to be deliberately provocative and adhere to the old, "No publicity is bad publicity".
Runes said:
Johnnytheboy said:
"My beef"...
And the noble art of understatement, sadly wasted on you.
Sorry, maybe I've misunderstood, but it really looks like you meant that Lush should only campaign about things that are high on your list of concerns. Could you clarify?And the noble art of understatement, sadly wasted on you.
It seems like a very odd priority to focus your campaigning effort on, to the extent of splashing it all over your shop windows.
In more comic terms it's quite ironic for a soap-monger to campaign on behalf of some soap-dodgers.
Johnnytheboy said:
In more plain English, in my opinion there are far more egregious problems in the world than a handful of undercover policemen engaging in sexual relations with people whose criminal activity they are investigating.
It seems like a very odd priority to focus your campaigning effort on, to the extent of splashing it all over your shop windows.
In more comic terms it's quite ironic for a soap-monger to campaign on behalf of some soap-dodgers.
Regarding it as odd is quite different from saying that you object to it, which is what I infer you meant by saying that you have "beef". The question remains, why do you object to a campaign merely because it is not high on your list of priorities? Do you also have beef with people campaigning for, say, bat conservation or classics education?It seems like a very odd priority to focus your campaigning effort on, to the extent of splashing it all over your shop windows.
In more comic terms it's quite ironic for a soap-monger to campaign on behalf of some soap-dodgers.
It's notable that in making your argument you write that the allegations about undercover policing involve only "a handful" of officers (see here for a partial list), that they are simply about the officers having "engaged in sexual relations" (see here for detail about the allegations), and that the people who were being investigated were doing crimes. If you don't even know what the campaign is about, you have an unsound basis for making an assessment of it, don't you agree?
I just thought i would post this here as the old thread it was in was closed.
Thank you for what you do RBSbob and the 99.9% of good police officers out there
Thank you for what you do RBSbob and the 99.9% of good police officers out there
RBSBob said:
Not my words. I have lied too.
flushlush
Dear Lush,
I have seen your front window display and the accusation that as a police officer I am “Paid to Lie”. I have given this considerable thought over the last 24 hours. I have looked over my 16-year career, from Constable to Inspector, and I must say that I agree with you wholly and passionately, because I am indeed “Paid to Lie”.
I Lied. I spent 8 hours of a 10-hour shift cradling a young baby in my arms. Her Mother was in Police Custody for stabbing her Father. Social Services were too stretched to attend. I used my own money to buy her milk and nappies. A member of the public remonstrated with me when they saw me buying these supplies, said I was “Wasting Tax Payer’s money doing my shopping when I should have been serving the public”. I rocked that baby to sleep, her tear stained cheek on mine. I whispered to her, I promised her she would be fine. She wasn’t. She is now a teenager; my colleagues deal with her daily. She is not fine. I lied.
I lied. I talked a suicidal male down from the balcony of his own flat. He was on the ‘wrong’ side and said he had nothing to live for. I spent an hour talking to him, convincing him that he had everything to live for. He came down. I saved his life that night. I referred him to the appropriate agencies to support him through his crisis. He engaged with Mental Health Services for a while. He killed himself the following year. He left a suicide note saying he didn’t have anything to live for. I lied.
I lied. I attended my first ‘sudden death’ as a new Police Constable. I was 23 and the male that passed away was 21. I performed CPR whilst waiting for paramedics to attend. Any opportunities to save his life failed and he was pronounced dead. I checked his whole body for any suspicious activity and then I confirmed his death to his parents and his younger siblings. It was the first dead body I had seen since my own Grandad had died. This happened 19 years ago. I can still smell the air freshener in that house. My sergeant asked me if I was okay. I was not okay. I Lied.
I lied. I attended the scene of a report of a domestic violence incident in progress. The neighbours called police, concerned for the safety of a female. I found that female, she had significant injuries. An aggressive male threatened to stab me if I didn’t leave his property. I stayed. I arrested the male. I sustained injuries to my hands and wrist as a result. Colleagues took too long to assist me, they were dealing with their own incidents. The female refused to tell me what had happened. I persuaded her to give evidence and support a prosecution against him. She did. She placed her trust in me. She showed bravery beyond anything I could ever comprehend. He was charged with assault and remanded to court. I wrote the most convincing remand application to the court that I have ever written in my whole career. The court released him the next day. He went back to her and they resumed their relationship, she can’t leave him. The calls to Police continue. I told her she would be safe. I lied.
I Lied. As a Police Constable I was placed on two cell watches within one shift. When prisoners in custody are identified as being at high risk, an officer is assigned to watch over them to make sure they remain safe whilst in Police Custody. Risks are broad but can include medical issues, alcohol intoxication, illegal drug use, through to risks of self-harm and suicide. I was placed on a cell watch of a suicidal male, he had been arrested on suspicion of child sex offences. He tried to hang himself in the Police cell by binding his socks together to make a ligature. I pulled the ligature from his neck preventing his death. My actions were later commented upon because I should have stopped him before he got the opportunity to tie the socks together in the first place. During such duties you never take your eye of the detainee for a second. The same shift I was placed on a second cell watch. A male arrested on suspicion of murder also said he was suicidal. I was sat at the entrance to his cell and he was covered in the provided blanket. He removed the blanket to reveal his penis and started to masturbate. He told me I was pretty, he liked blondes. I had to maintain visual on him, to ensure his welfare, until such time I could raise the attention of a male colleague to take over from me. We all laughed afterwards at my expense. The Sergeant asked me if I was fine. I laughed and said I was and I went home. I lied.
I lied. I went to the report of a sexual assault. A 14 year old child had been raped by her Step Father. I consoled the child whilst my colleagues arrested the Step Father. I asked the child to hide in another room whilst her mother attacked me, scratching my chest and neck with her fingernails, furious because I had taken her boyfriend away from her. She had numerous contagious diseases. The child victim then turned on me, she bit me and I had to restrain her by the arms to prevent her injuring me. Her Mum hated the Police so she did too. I remember working a double shift that night. When I eventually got home to my own 14-year-old daughter, she gave me hug and asked me if I was okay. I said I was I okay. If she saw the marks on my neck she chose not to say. Once she was asleep I crept into her room, watched her sleep and I cried. I cried for that abused child. I cried that I was so blessed. I cried that my own child worried about me and I cried for the burden I placed upon her. I wasn’t okay. I lied.
You see Lush, I do lie, I lie to those I try to help, to my own colleagues and to my friends and family. I am not alone and I am sure that my colleagues reading this would agree they have done the same.
flushlush
Dear Lush,
I have seen your front window display and the accusation that as a police officer I am “Paid to Lie”. I have given this considerable thought over the last 24 hours. I have looked over my 16-year career, from Constable to Inspector, and I must say that I agree with you wholly and passionately, because I am indeed “Paid to Lie”.
I Lied. I spent 8 hours of a 10-hour shift cradling a young baby in my arms. Her Mother was in Police Custody for stabbing her Father. Social Services were too stretched to attend. I used my own money to buy her milk and nappies. A member of the public remonstrated with me when they saw me buying these supplies, said I was “Wasting Tax Payer’s money doing my shopping when I should have been serving the public”. I rocked that baby to sleep, her tear stained cheek on mine. I whispered to her, I promised her she would be fine. She wasn’t. She is now a teenager; my colleagues deal with her daily. She is not fine. I lied.
I lied. I talked a suicidal male down from the balcony of his own flat. He was on the ‘wrong’ side and said he had nothing to live for. I spent an hour talking to him, convincing him that he had everything to live for. He came down. I saved his life that night. I referred him to the appropriate agencies to support him through his crisis. He engaged with Mental Health Services for a while. He killed himself the following year. He left a suicide note saying he didn’t have anything to live for. I lied.
I lied. I attended my first ‘sudden death’ as a new Police Constable. I was 23 and the male that passed away was 21. I performed CPR whilst waiting for paramedics to attend. Any opportunities to save his life failed and he was pronounced dead. I checked his whole body for any suspicious activity and then I confirmed his death to his parents and his younger siblings. It was the first dead body I had seen since my own Grandad had died. This happened 19 years ago. I can still smell the air freshener in that house. My sergeant asked me if I was okay. I was not okay. I Lied.
I lied. I attended the scene of a report of a domestic violence incident in progress. The neighbours called police, concerned for the safety of a female. I found that female, she had significant injuries. An aggressive male threatened to stab me if I didn’t leave his property. I stayed. I arrested the male. I sustained injuries to my hands and wrist as a result. Colleagues took too long to assist me, they were dealing with their own incidents. The female refused to tell me what had happened. I persuaded her to give evidence and support a prosecution against him. She did. She placed her trust in me. She showed bravery beyond anything I could ever comprehend. He was charged with assault and remanded to court. I wrote the most convincing remand application to the court that I have ever written in my whole career. The court released him the next day. He went back to her and they resumed their relationship, she can’t leave him. The calls to Police continue. I told her she would be safe. I lied.
I Lied. As a Police Constable I was placed on two cell watches within one shift. When prisoners in custody are identified as being at high risk, an officer is assigned to watch over them to make sure they remain safe whilst in Police Custody. Risks are broad but can include medical issues, alcohol intoxication, illegal drug use, through to risks of self-harm and suicide. I was placed on a cell watch of a suicidal male, he had been arrested on suspicion of child sex offences. He tried to hang himself in the Police cell by binding his socks together to make a ligature. I pulled the ligature from his neck preventing his death. My actions were later commented upon because I should have stopped him before he got the opportunity to tie the socks together in the first place. During such duties you never take your eye of the detainee for a second. The same shift I was placed on a second cell watch. A male arrested on suspicion of murder also said he was suicidal. I was sat at the entrance to his cell and he was covered in the provided blanket. He removed the blanket to reveal his penis and started to masturbate. He told me I was pretty, he liked blondes. I had to maintain visual on him, to ensure his welfare, until such time I could raise the attention of a male colleague to take over from me. We all laughed afterwards at my expense. The Sergeant asked me if I was fine. I laughed and said I was and I went home. I lied.
I lied. I went to the report of a sexual assault. A 14 year old child had been raped by her Step Father. I consoled the child whilst my colleagues arrested the Step Father. I asked the child to hide in another room whilst her mother attacked me, scratching my chest and neck with her fingernails, furious because I had taken her boyfriend away from her. She had numerous contagious diseases. The child victim then turned on me, she bit me and I had to restrain her by the arms to prevent her injuring me. Her Mum hated the Police so she did too. I remember working a double shift that night. When I eventually got home to my own 14-year-old daughter, she gave me hug and asked me if I was okay. I said I was I okay. If she saw the marks on my neck she chose not to say. Once she was asleep I crept into her room, watched her sleep and I cried. I cried for that abused child. I cried that I was so blessed. I cried that my own child worried about me and I cried for the burden I placed upon her. I wasn’t okay. I lied.
You see Lush, I do lie, I lie to those I try to help, to my own colleagues and to my friends and family. I am not alone and I am sure that my colleagues reading this would agree they have done the same.
Runes said:
Johnnytheboy said:
In more plain English, in my opinion there are far more egregious problems in the world than a handful of undercover policemen engaging in sexual relations with people whose criminal activity they are investigating.
It seems like a very odd priority to focus your campaigning effort on, to the extent of splashing it all over your shop windows.
In more comic terms it's quite ironic for a soap-monger to campaign on behalf of some soap-dodgers.
Regarding it as odd is quite different from saying that you object to it, which is what I infer you meant by saying that you have "beef". The question remains, why do you object to a campaign merely because it is not high on your list of priorities? Do you also have beef with people campaigning for, say, bat conservation or classics education?It seems like a very odd priority to focus your campaigning effort on, to the extent of splashing it all over your shop windows.
In more comic terms it's quite ironic for a soap-monger to campaign on behalf of some soap-dodgers.
It's notable that in making your argument you write that the allegations about undercover policing involve only "a handful" of officers (see here for a partial list), that they are simply about the officers having "engaged in sexual relations" (see here for detail about the allegations), and that the people who were being investigated were doing crimes. If you don't even know what the campaign is about, you have an unsound basis for making an assessment of it, don't you agree?
My reading of that list is that there is no suggestion that some, all or any engaged in sexual relations with anyone in the targeted group. However, there was one, and the relevant police force paid out damages to the victim.
That some of those groups were engaging in serious criminal activity is beyond doubt from my knowledge. We can't dismiss the suggestion that there was some evidence to suggest that the other groups under surveillance were engaged in similar activity.
Personally I know only one officer who went undercover. The offences involved were murder, arson with intent to endanger life, other criminal damage, assaults and, believable - you'd better believe it, threats to kill. Given those circs I feel that an undercover officer was a reasonable use of resources. Whether risking an officer merely for evidence for court was appropriate is another matter.
Going undercover is an expensive option, quite remarkably so. One would assume that those officers were hand picked. I would assume that even in the old, pre-Cameron days, when the service was merely underfunded, decisions to use such an expensive resource were not taken lightly.
The assumption of many seems to be that it is somehow 'wrong' to use undercover officers. No one has come up with reasons as to why the practice should not continue. We have one officer engaged in sexual activity with a member of the group. That, on the few facts of the situation disclosed, would appear to be beyond the pale, although, of course, not criminal.
Going undercover is normally a risky role. It is not one I would even contemplate, but not through any moral uncertainty but because I'd be too scared.
There must be oversight as well, which should happen in any case. However, one can appreciate the problems with proper supervision.
Old Man Fred said:
I just thought i would post this here as the old thread it was in was closed.
Thank you for what you do RBSbob and the 99.9% of good police officers out there
Good post there : thumbup:Thank you for what you do RBSbob and the 99.9% of good police officers out there
RBSBob said:
Not my words. I have lied too.
flushlush
Dear Lush,
I have seen your front window display and the accusation that as a police officer I am “Paid to Lie”. I have given this considerable thought over the last 24 hours. I have looked over my 16-year career, from Constable to Inspector, and I must say that I agree with you wholly and passionately, because I am indeed “Paid to Lie”.
I Lied. I spent 8 hours of a 10-hour shift cradling a young baby in my arms. Her Mother was in Police Custody for stabbing her Father. Social Services were too stretched to attend. I used my own money to buy her milk and nappies. A member of the public remonstrated with me when they saw me buying these supplies, said I was “Wasting Tax Payer’s money doing my shopping when I should have been serving the public”. I rocked that baby to sleep, her tear stained cheek on mine. I whispered to her, I promised her she would be fine. She wasn’t. She is now a teenager; my colleagues deal with her daily. She is not fine. I lied.
I lied. I talked a suicidal male down from the balcony of his own flat. He was on the ‘wrong’ side and said he had nothing to live for. I spent an hour talking to him, convincing him that he had everything to live for. He came down. I saved his life that night. I referred him to the appropriate agencies to support him through his crisis. He engaged with Mental Health Services for a while. He killed himself the following year. He left a suicide note saying he didn’t have anything to live for. I lied.
I lied. I attended my first ‘sudden death’ as a new Police Constable. I was 23 and the male that passed away was 21. I performed CPR whilst waiting for paramedics to attend. Any opportunities to save his life failed and he was pronounced dead. I checked his whole body for any suspicious activity and then I confirmed his death to his parents and his younger siblings. It was the first dead body I had seen since my own Grandad had died. This happened 19 years ago. I can still smell the air freshener in that house. My sergeant asked me if I was okay. I was not okay. I Lied.
I lied. I attended the scene of a report of a domestic violence incident in progress. The neighbours called police, concerned for the safety of a female. I found that female, she had significant injuries. An aggressive male threatened to stab me if I didn’t leave his property. I stayed. I arrested the male. I sustained injuries to my hands and wrist as a result. Colleagues took too long to assist me, they were dealing with their own incidents. The female refused to tell me what had happened. I persuaded her to give evidence and support a prosecution against him. She did. She placed her trust in me. She showed bravery beyond anything I could ever comprehend. He was charged with assault and remanded to court. I wrote the most convincing remand application to the court that I have ever written in my whole career. The court released him the next day. He went back to her and they resumed their relationship, she can’t leave him. The calls to Police continue. I told her she would be safe. I lied.
I Lied. As a Police Constable I was placed on two cell watches within one shift. When prisoners in custody are identified as being at high risk, an officer is assigned to watch over them to make sure they remain safe whilst in Police Custody. Risks are broad but can include medical issues, alcohol intoxication, illegal drug use, through to risks of self-harm and suicide. I was placed on a cell watch of a suicidal male, he had been arrested on suspicion of child sex offences. He tried to hang himself in the Police cell by binding his socks together to make a ligature. I pulled the ligature from his neck preventing his death. My actions were later commented upon because I should have stopped him before he got the opportunity to tie the socks together in the first place. During such duties you never take your eye of the detainee for a second. The same shift I was placed on a second cell watch. A male arrested on suspicion of murder also said he was suicidal. I was sat at the entrance to his cell and he was covered in the provided blanket. He removed the blanket to reveal his penis and started to masturbate. He told me I was pretty, he liked blondes. I had to maintain visual on him, to ensure his welfare, until such time I could raise the attention of a male colleague to take over from me. We all laughed afterwards at my expense. The Sergeant asked me if I was fine. I laughed and said I was and I went home. I lied.
I lied. I went to the report of a sexual assault. A 14 year old child had been raped by her Step Father. I consoled the child whilst my colleagues arrested the Step Father. I asked the child to hide in another room whilst her mother attacked me, scratching my chest and neck with her fingernails, furious because I had taken her boyfriend away from her. She had numerous contagious diseases. The child victim then turned on me, she bit me and I had to restrain her by the arms to prevent her injuring me. Her Mum hated the Police so she did too. I remember working a double shift that night. When I eventually got home to my own 14-year-old daughter, she gave me hug and asked me if I was okay. I said I was I okay. If she saw the marks on my neck she chose not to say. Once she was asleep I crept into her room, watched her sleep and I cried. I cried for that abused child. I cried that I was so blessed. I cried that my own child worried about me and I cried for the burden I placed upon her. I wasn’t okay. I lied.
You see Lush, I do lie, I lie to those I try to help, to my own colleagues and to my friends and family. I am not alone and I am sure that my colleagues reading this would agree they have done the same.
flushlush
Dear Lush,
I have seen your front window display and the accusation that as a police officer I am “Paid to Lie”. I have given this considerable thought over the last 24 hours. I have looked over my 16-year career, from Constable to Inspector, and I must say that I agree with you wholly and passionately, because I am indeed “Paid to Lie”.
I Lied. I spent 8 hours of a 10-hour shift cradling a young baby in my arms. Her Mother was in Police Custody for stabbing her Father. Social Services were too stretched to attend. I used my own money to buy her milk and nappies. A member of the public remonstrated with me when they saw me buying these supplies, said I was “Wasting Tax Payer’s money doing my shopping when I should have been serving the public”. I rocked that baby to sleep, her tear stained cheek on mine. I whispered to her, I promised her she would be fine. She wasn’t. She is now a teenager; my colleagues deal with her daily. She is not fine. I lied.
I lied. I talked a suicidal male down from the balcony of his own flat. He was on the ‘wrong’ side and said he had nothing to live for. I spent an hour talking to him, convincing him that he had everything to live for. He came down. I saved his life that night. I referred him to the appropriate agencies to support him through his crisis. He engaged with Mental Health Services for a while. He killed himself the following year. He left a suicide note saying he didn’t have anything to live for. I lied.
I lied. I attended my first ‘sudden death’ as a new Police Constable. I was 23 and the male that passed away was 21. I performed CPR whilst waiting for paramedics to attend. Any opportunities to save his life failed and he was pronounced dead. I checked his whole body for any suspicious activity and then I confirmed his death to his parents and his younger siblings. It was the first dead body I had seen since my own Grandad had died. This happened 19 years ago. I can still smell the air freshener in that house. My sergeant asked me if I was okay. I was not okay. I Lied.
I lied. I attended the scene of a report of a domestic violence incident in progress. The neighbours called police, concerned for the safety of a female. I found that female, she had significant injuries. An aggressive male threatened to stab me if I didn’t leave his property. I stayed. I arrested the male. I sustained injuries to my hands and wrist as a result. Colleagues took too long to assist me, they were dealing with their own incidents. The female refused to tell me what had happened. I persuaded her to give evidence and support a prosecution against him. She did. She placed her trust in me. She showed bravery beyond anything I could ever comprehend. He was charged with assault and remanded to court. I wrote the most convincing remand application to the court that I have ever written in my whole career. The court released him the next day. He went back to her and they resumed their relationship, she can’t leave him. The calls to Police continue. I told her she would be safe. I lied.
I Lied. As a Police Constable I was placed on two cell watches within one shift. When prisoners in custody are identified as being at high risk, an officer is assigned to watch over them to make sure they remain safe whilst in Police Custody. Risks are broad but can include medical issues, alcohol intoxication, illegal drug use, through to risks of self-harm and suicide. I was placed on a cell watch of a suicidal male, he had been arrested on suspicion of child sex offences. He tried to hang himself in the Police cell by binding his socks together to make a ligature. I pulled the ligature from his neck preventing his death. My actions were later commented upon because I should have stopped him before he got the opportunity to tie the socks together in the first place. During such duties you never take your eye of the detainee for a second. The same shift I was placed on a second cell watch. A male arrested on suspicion of murder also said he was suicidal. I was sat at the entrance to his cell and he was covered in the provided blanket. He removed the blanket to reveal his penis and started to masturbate. He told me I was pretty, he liked blondes. I had to maintain visual on him, to ensure his welfare, until such time I could raise the attention of a male colleague to take over from me. We all laughed afterwards at my expense. The Sergeant asked me if I was fine. I laughed and said I was and I went home. I lied.
I lied. I went to the report of a sexual assault. A 14 year old child had been raped by her Step Father. I consoled the child whilst my colleagues arrested the Step Father. I asked the child to hide in another room whilst her mother attacked me, scratching my chest and neck with her fingernails, furious because I had taken her boyfriend away from her. She had numerous contagious diseases. The child victim then turned on me, she bit me and I had to restrain her by the arms to prevent her injuring me. Her Mum hated the Police so she did too. I remember working a double shift that night. When I eventually got home to my own 14-year-old daughter, she gave me hug and asked me if I was okay. I said I was I okay. If she saw the marks on my neck she chose not to say. Once she was asleep I crept into her room, watched her sleep and I cried. I cried for that abused child. I cried that I was so blessed. I cried that my own child worried about me and I cried for the burden I placed upon her. I wasn’t okay. I lied.
You see Lush, I do lie, I lie to those I try to help, to my own colleagues and to my friends and family. I am not alone and I am sure that my colleagues reading this would agree they have done the same.
Derek Smith said:
The list you linked to goes back to before I joined the police, so at least I'm in the clear for some of them. In 50 years there're <90 undercover officers. Given that during that period there was what many feel was a civil war going on, with weekly murders, then I'm surprised it was so few. However, accepting that my perception was rather off, I feel that the figure 'handful' is reasonable in the circumstances.
It's unclear to me that that list purports to be exhaustive. For one thing, it only purports to include members of certain groups (the Special Operations Squad, the Special Demonstration Squad and the Special Duties Section). For another, the inquiry only covers England and Wales, not Scotland and Northern Ireland.Derek Smith said:
My reading of that list is that there is no suggestion that some, all or any engaged in sexual relations with anyone in the targeted group. However, there was one, and the relevant police force paid out damages to the victim.
The list doesn't suggest that, I agree: it's just a list.I'm not sure what you mean by "there was one" (one officer; one victim; one group?), but the Met appears to believe that five of its officers deceived seven women into sexual relationships using their undercover identities: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34875197
No doubt part of the inquiry's function will be to discover whether there were more perpetrators and/or more victims.
But my point really is not for us to discover the exact details of what happened, but only to argue that in assessing how important you consider an issue to be (and therefore whether, for some unidentified reason, Johnny has "beef" with people who choose to campaign about it), you should not start from a false premise of what the issue is.
Edited by Runes on Tuesday 5th June 17:46
AshVX220 said:
I was thinking the exact same thing.
What a bizarre attitude. If their stance is, "the police should do their job properly", why wouldn't they expect to be able to call on the police to, err, do their job properly? Do you also suggest that members of patient advocacy groups who criticise medical malpractice shouldn't go to hospital when they are ill?Runes said:
...but the Met appears to believe that five of its officers deceived seven women into sexual relationships using their undercover identities
Those IDs have to be convincing, right?If there is a blanket ban put on any undercover officers getting jiggy-jiggy with members of the groups they're, umm, penetrating - then they might as well simply stop all undercover ops, because any and every group with every nous is just going to lob a honey trap at any suspect new members to test 'em.
TooMany2cvs said:
Those IDs have to be convincing, right?
If there is a blanket ban put on any undercover officers getting jiggy-jiggy with members of the groups they're, umm, penetrating - then they might as well simply stop all undercover ops, because any and every group with every nous is just going to lob a honey trap at any suspect new members to test 'em.
Your claim that all undercover policing would be unviable strikes me as somewhat farfetched. But even if it were correct, then yes, if the police can't use a particular technique ethically, they shouldn't use it. There oughtn't to be anything controversial about that.If there is a blanket ban put on any undercover officers getting jiggy-jiggy with members of the groups they're, umm, penetrating - then they might as well simply stop all undercover ops, because any and every group with every nous is just going to lob a honey trap at any suspect new members to test 'em.
TooMany2cvs said:
Those IDs have to be convincing, right?
If there is a blanket ban put on any undercover officers getting jiggy-jiggy with members of the groups they're, umm, penetrating - then they might as well simply stop all undercover ops, because any and every group with every nous is just going to lob a honey trap at any suspect new members to test 'em.
There's a balance to be drawn. If there is a blanket ban put on any undercover officers getting jiggy-jiggy with members of the groups they're, umm, penetrating - then they might as well simply stop all undercover ops, because any and every group with every nous is just going to lob a honey trap at any suspect new members to test 'em.
If it was, for an instance, infiltrating the PIRA then one would assume that most bets are off, if only for self protection of the agent involved.
For those less animalistic in their contempt for human life there should be more thought given to it. It is hardly unknown for a person to purport to be something they are not in order to get into the knickers of someone they fancy. It should not be encouraged but one can see where it might be allowed.
We've all been in situations where refusal might offend and I would assume that there might well be circs where refusal might give a basis for suspicion. If an organisation is intent on terrorism then there is often a certain willingness to engage in brutality to further their aims. The justification of violence and the frequent use of it is likely to send the perpetrators psychotic so someone undercover, all on their own, in the midst of these nutters, might well be justified in picking the more pleasant option. Long term relationships though, that's a bit different.
There is no offence committed of course, but is it something a civilian police officer should indulge in? In some ways it might be because there is more oversight with the police service. With the security services it is less open to scrutiny.
It is a difficult judgement situation, and not one that can be balanced on what is in a shop window.
Is animal rights activism a legitimate target for undercover work? It has a segment, purportedly a minority, that supports acts of terrorism. Further, some of the big names, such as PETA, have refused to criticise them and by omission lend support. I'm quite happy with the moral justification of having undercover police officers trying to infiltrate such groups. That's easy enough. Drawing the line is the difficult bit. Some may think that terrorists put themselves beyond the niceties of moral restrictions, such as undercover officers engaging in sex with them. I can see their logic.
If an officer commits an offence when undercover, then they are no better than those they are trying to prosecute. If one of the terrorists engages willingly in a sexual act with the officer then one might ask what is the problem. Fair enough, the terrorist might feel hard done by but only in retrospect.
We've all been there.
Derek Smith said:
There is no offence committed of course, but is it something a civilian police officer should indulge in? In some ways it might be because there is more oversight with the police service. With the security services it is less open to scrutiny.
As an aside, it's not clear to me that that's correct. (I say as an aside, because I agree with you that the question whether what they did is criminal is not the only question that needs asking.) You'll know from your profession that where A agrees to have sex with B on the basis of a lie told by B, B can in some circumstances be guilty of rape. Examples have been where B has lied that she was male, where B has lied that he was wearing a condom, and, ironically for the present discussion, where B has lied that he (or someone he was pretending to be) was a police officer. Now, you may think it is going a step further to say that the lies told by these police officers effectively negatived their victims' consent, but I think the argument is there to be had.Derek Smith said:
Is animal rights activism a legitimate target for undercover work?.
.
At the time these incidents with officers happened then most definately, the animal rights people had carried out some truly horrific attacks and these carried on in some places well into 00's..
Remember lots of flagged 'at risk' addresses
Runes said:
As an aside, it's not clear to me that that's correct. (I say as an aside, because I agree with you that the question whether what they did is criminal is not the only question that needs asking.) You'll know from your profession that where A agrees to have sex with B on the basis of a lie told by B, B can in some circumstances be guilty of rape. Examples have been where B has lied that she was male, where B has lied that he was wearing a condom, and, ironically for the present discussion, where B has lied that he (or someone he was pretending to be) was a police officer. Now, you may think it is going a step further to say that the lies told by these police officers effectively negatived their victims' consent, but I think the argument is there to be had.
It is arguable but I'm unaware of any case where someone was purporting not to be a police officer. Rape is a very involved offence when it comes to case law. The case you refer to does not seem to be entirely relevant as there were threats. There is a similarity, although 180 degrees around, in that the woman had sex because she believed the person was a police officer, but that was only to justify the validity of the threats. Most cases revolve around consent. In this case, would the woman have refused sex if she had known man had no sympathy with animal rights terrorism? Was consent conditional, as in the condom case? The officer did not, one assumes, fail to mention he was a police officer in order to get into bed with the woman, or at least he won't once he's had legal advice. And there lies the problem in convicting a person of rape. There are all sorts of 'outs' with regards to consent and a suspect is not limited to just the one. The 2003 Act tried to make it easier to convict but I'm not sure it made any great difference as consent is the critical point.
I ran a fraction over 2.7 parades a week for rape and serious sexual offences in my two years as an identification officer. An odd coincidence was the nature of the statements made by the suspects. It was almost as if they'd been told what to say. The problem was that I was putting these women through a form of torture, often at the demand of the defence, for no real reason. Unless the victim was grabbed as they walked through a graveyard and left with bruises, there was little chance of a conviction once they'd got legal advice.
sidaorb said:
At the time these incidents with officers happened then most definately, the animal rights people had carried out some truly horrific attacks and these carried on in some places well into 00's.
"some truly horrific attacks" is stretching it a little. There were 3 attacks purportedly committed by the A.L.F. which were somewhat out of kilter which their usual MO and threatened or caused physical harm to individuals, one of those turned out to be a Huntsman planting a bomb on his own car to discredit the A.L.F. and the other two never amounted to a conviction.Most attacks were centered around causing economic damage - the 'violence' was against property.
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