Bring back Workhouses!
Discussion
Funny you should mention that, I work on average 60 hours a week. I have two jobs, one where I pay basic rate tax and my main income that I declare every year in a tax return. I know I am contributing to the tax system and, in part, paying people to sit around doing nothing.
I have zero sympathy for people who can't be bothered to work for a living, there is NO excuse for not doing 'something'. Being trained to do one job and not accepting anything else is no excuse either in my book, diversify or work 'till the right job comes along.
My previous work history does not give me the right to walk around with a chip on my shoulder or to feel like I am above doing a job which is 'below' me or my 'abilities' this is partly because I do not think I should expect other people to put their hand in their pocket while I wait for a suitable job to come my way so I'll do whatever I can.
My parents fail to see that they have one child that refuses to grow up, essentially they are still taking on the responsibility and continue to support an adult-child who will never stand on their own two feet financially because life is apparently easier when you don't. My parents denial is along the lines of how the government see the problem - keep chucking money at a waster and forget they are a problem.
I for one see no problem with putting people who show no interest in earning a living to work in a job of the governments choosing, if they are too fussy or so inept at their trade they cannot find employment in a reasonable time then so far as I am concerned they have made the decision for themselves to take whatever is thrust upon them.
I have zero sympathy for people who can't be bothered to work for a living, there is NO excuse for not doing 'something'. Being trained to do one job and not accepting anything else is no excuse either in my book, diversify or work 'till the right job comes along.
My previous work history does not give me the right to walk around with a chip on my shoulder or to feel like I am above doing a job which is 'below' me or my 'abilities' this is partly because I do not think I should expect other people to put their hand in their pocket while I wait for a suitable job to come my way so I'll do whatever I can.
My parents fail to see that they have one child that refuses to grow up, essentially they are still taking on the responsibility and continue to support an adult-child who will never stand on their own two feet financially because life is apparently easier when you don't. My parents denial is along the lines of how the government see the problem - keep chucking money at a waster and forget they are a problem.
I for one see no problem with putting people who show no interest in earning a living to work in a job of the governments choosing, if they are too fussy or so inept at their trade they cannot find employment in a reasonable time then so far as I am concerned they have made the decision for themselves to take whatever is thrust upon them.
RV8 said:
I have zero sympathy for people who can't be bothered to work for a living, there is NO excuse for not doing 'something'. Being trained to do one job and not accepting anything else is no excuse either in my book, diversify or work 'till the right job comes along.
My previous work history does not give me the right to walk around with a chip on my shoulder or to feel like I am above doing a job which is 'below' me or my 'abilities' this is partly because I do not think I should expect other people to put their hand in their pocket while I wait for a suitable job to come my way so I'll do whatever I can.
This is an important point; during my 13 month stint on the rock'n'roll I applied for countless jobs which if I was being picky, I would say I'm overqualified for or have no experience or interest in, Mcjobs if you like. Without exception I was turned down, usually at the application form stage. If I got feedback(which was rare), it was to the effect that I had a degree and would be buggering off at the first hint of a better job. I can't fault them for that, but it's a bit depressing when you see the same job continues to be advertised, i.e. they prefer to have the job unfilled to having a shorttimer who leaves after a while.My previous work history does not give me the right to walk around with a chip on my shoulder or to feel like I am above doing a job which is 'below' me or my 'abilities' this is partly because I do not think I should expect other people to put their hand in their pocket while I wait for a suitable job to come my way so I'll do whatever I can.
RV8 said:
Funny you should mention that, I work on average 60 hours a week. I have two jobs, one where I pay basic rate tax and my main income that I declare every year in a tax return. I know I am contributing to the tax system and, in part, paying people to sit around doing nothing.
I have zero sympathy for people who can't be bothered to work for a living, there is NO excuse for not doing 'something'. Being trained to do one job and not accepting anything else is no excuse either in my book, diversify or work 'till the right job comes along.
My previous work history does not give me the right to walk around with a chip on my shoulder or to feel like I am above doing a job which is 'below' me or my 'abilities' this is partly because I do not think I should expect other people to put their hand in their pocket while I wait for a suitable job to come my way so I'll do whatever I can.
My parents fail to see that they have one child that refuses to grow up, essentially they are still taking on the responsibility and continue to support an adult-child who will never stand on their own two feet financially because life is apparently easier when you don't. My parents denial is along the lines of how the government see the problem - keep chucking money at a waster and forget they are a problem.
I for one see no problem with putting people who show no interest in earning a living to work in a job of the governments choosing, if they are too fussy or so inept at their trade they cannot find employment in a reasonable time then so far as I am concerned they have made the decision for themselves to take whatever is thrust upon them.
That's good for you, but I'd say you have a fairly narrow view of the world.I have zero sympathy for people who can't be bothered to work for a living, there is NO excuse for not doing 'something'. Being trained to do one job and not accepting anything else is no excuse either in my book, diversify or work 'till the right job comes along.
My previous work history does not give me the right to walk around with a chip on my shoulder or to feel like I am above doing a job which is 'below' me or my 'abilities' this is partly because I do not think I should expect other people to put their hand in their pocket while I wait for a suitable job to come my way so I'll do whatever I can.
My parents fail to see that they have one child that refuses to grow up, essentially they are still taking on the responsibility and continue to support an adult-child who will never stand on their own two feet financially because life is apparently easier when you don't. My parents denial is along the lines of how the government see the problem - keep chucking money at a waster and forget they are a problem.
I for one see no problem with putting people who show no interest in earning a living to work in a job of the governments choosing, if they are too fussy or so inept at their trade they cannot find employment in a reasonable time then so far as I am concerned they have made the decision for themselves to take whatever is thrust upon them.
TBH, I can't be bothered to defend myself against this crap any more.
The thread was about the workhouse. I tried to explain, and was accused of taking it off topic. I defended that, and I feel you've made it into a thread specifically to insult me. I guess this has come about because I feel and admit to being the target of your anger. You seem to have targeted me, and I think it's because you can't argue your case rationally.
Whilst the idea of pushing people into your workhouse as slaves to work presumably for you, sounds good to you. It sounds crap to me.
I'm happy to work in a factory, but not in your workhouse. As for guilt, I don't have any for you at all. You specifically, I'm happy to acquire any money the government demands from you, if they're prepared to give it to me. I think that's equity for all your hate. If you want, get it out of your system, it might do you some good! Someone else, perhaps I'd treat them better.
I think the workhouse is wrong. I think it was the wrong approach then. Then, the factory was the right approach. Believe it or not, we succeeded our way out of the workhouse. It became unnecessary. Whilst government policy coupled with greed now make it attractive to some, it would be a competitive step backwards.
If we initiate the workhouse now, we will produce the products that China used to produce.
That will leave us all worse off.
Rage on!
Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 27th April 20:16
zcacogp said:
This thread is getting very complex, with numerous sub-discussions taking place in it. But some interesting points are raised, and worth talking about. Excellebnt post from Sway BTW, although I'd be interested how he has ended up worse off by having a job and a house.
Oli.
Basically Oli, if I was renting a similar property, and out of work, I could claim housing benefit, council tax benefit, job seekers allowance, all sorts. I'd also not be liable for any costs of maintaining the house, so my outgoings would reduce by that as well.Oli.
Compound that with the fact that if we really wanted to, my OH could get signed off as disabled (rather than just staying at home unpaid looking after the kids as she is now - and if I had the choice she'd be home schooling them due to the ridiculous 'inclusive, non competitive' current education system, which is a whole other thread), which would bring disability living allowance, or a free car on the motability scheme.
I'd also be able to claim hardship allowances for utilities, a free laptop, and a few other things. Plus I'd have loads of time to do the small little cash in hand jobs I get offered all the time but turn down. (Having cared for my grandparents in their old age, I seem to be the first contact for any of the local elderly who needs odd jobs doing)
I'd basically go from having around £50 per month disposable income, to a fair amount more (as witnessed by myself by talking with the OH's workshy niece and her equally feckless bloke), by having the time and inclination to screw the system as hard as possible. (For reference, the feckless boyfriend has in the past 18 months been offered at least five jobs, including one by me, to which he always comes up with a bulls
t, but accepted by the authorities, excuse for not taking.My situation is likely to change within a year, and I hope that I'll be able to enjoy life a bit more, but it is only due to the fact that I was raised to love this sceptred isle, and I am not a quitter, that I don't pack up and leave this country to the lazy, workshy, feckless spongers and their communitarian overlord
s. I am only 27, yet I can see and feel the degradation to community spirit, work ethic, and pride in self achievement since these fkers got in power (and I'm really not convinced that the Tories really are the same party that allowed my Grandfather to succeed in life anymore, time will tell)But hey, I don't feel bitter!!!
Dilbert, sorry if you feel like my post was directed at you, I assure you it was not.
I dont know anything about your situation, if you have drawn conclusions from my post that you feel align with specific arguments about you then you are mistaken in thinking that they are about you specifically.
I didn't just wake up this morning with an opinion on this; I've been debating this openly with my family to varying degrees for a decade and I feel it does give me a right to an opinion. I have no reason to think that everyone on benefits is a scrounger.
In terms of taking a lesser skilled job, I am highy skilled and didnt hang around for a job in my sector to find me, I started as a contractor and took a second job. There are plenty of jobs doing cleaning or working as a kitchen porter or working at a supermarket, by our very nature we continually make mess so there is always money cleaning up. I've done my fair share of these jobs, recently in-fact. You haven't seen my CV or where I've been in life but rest assured it hasn't bothered any employer to date when they know how far from grace I may have fallen, they were more concerned if there were any extended periods being out of work, perhaps this is a problem some job seekers find.
I dont know anything about your situation, if you have drawn conclusions from my post that you feel align with specific arguments about you then you are mistaken in thinking that they are about you specifically.
I didn't just wake up this morning with an opinion on this; I've been debating this openly with my family to varying degrees for a decade and I feel it does give me a right to an opinion. I have no reason to think that everyone on benefits is a scrounger.
In terms of taking a lesser skilled job, I am highy skilled and didnt hang around for a job in my sector to find me, I started as a contractor and took a second job. There are plenty of jobs doing cleaning or working as a kitchen porter or working at a supermarket, by our very nature we continually make mess so there is always money cleaning up. I've done my fair share of these jobs, recently in-fact. You haven't seen my CV or where I've been in life but rest assured it hasn't bothered any employer to date when they know how far from grace I may have fallen, they were more concerned if there were any extended periods being out of work, perhaps this is a problem some job seekers find.
RV8 said:
You haven't seen my CV or where I've been in life but rest assured it hasn't bothered any employer to date when they know how far from grace I may have fallen, they were more concerned if there were any extended periods being out of work, perhaps this is a problem some job seekers find.
Without getting drawn into the main arguement, I totally agree with this.Far too many people who were unemployed complaining that they could not get a job, when there were actually loads of jobs in shelf stacking, temp data entry, bar work, whatever - but its "not what they wanted to do"
If I needed to earn money tomorrow, I would do whatever is required. I have never signed on for that reason.
RV8 said:
Dilbert, sorry if you feel like my post was directed at you, I assure you it was not.
I dont know anything about your situation, if you have drawn conclusions from my post that you feel align with specific arguments about you then you are mistaken in thinking that they are about you specifically.
I didn't just wake up this morning with an opinion on this; I've been debating this openly with my family to varying degrees for a decade and I feel it does give me a right to an opinion. I have no reason to think that everyone on benefits is a scrounger.
In terms of taking a lesser skilled job, I am highy skilled and didnt hang around for a job in my sector to find me, I started as a contractor and took a second job. There are plenty of jobs doing cleaning or working as a kitchen porter or working at a supermarket, by our very nature we continually make mess so there is always money cleaning up. I've done my fair share of these jobs, recently in-fact. You haven't seen my CV or where I've been in life but rest assured it hasn't bothered any employer to date when they know how far from grace I may have fallen, they were more concerned if there were any extended periods being out of work, perhaps this is a problem some job seekers find.
I don't think you're really all that sorry, but I can tell you that you do (in my opinion) have a problem with your outlook. You suggest, by implication, that if you can do something, then everyone can. This is not true.I dont know anything about your situation, if you have drawn conclusions from my post that you feel align with specific arguments about you then you are mistaken in thinking that they are about you specifically.
I didn't just wake up this morning with an opinion on this; I've been debating this openly with my family to varying degrees for a decade and I feel it does give me a right to an opinion. I have no reason to think that everyone on benefits is a scrounger.
In terms of taking a lesser skilled job, I am highy skilled and didnt hang around for a job in my sector to find me, I started as a contractor and took a second job. There are plenty of jobs doing cleaning or working as a kitchen porter or working at a supermarket, by our very nature we continually make mess so there is always money cleaning up. I've done my fair share of these jobs, recently in-fact. You haven't seen my CV or where I've been in life but rest assured it hasn't bothered any employer to date when they know how far from grace I may have fallen, they were more concerned if there were any extended periods being out of work, perhaps this is a problem some job seekers find.
Perhaps you are a farmer. If you were, you could be placed in a field and you would make things grow. Perhaps you are neurosurgeon, you could cut someone's head open and repair their damaged brain.
If you placed the neurosurgeon in a field, there are many things he would not know. It might take him years to figure out how to raise the crops in even swathes across many acres. More still to sow and harvest the crops. With no prior knowledge of farming, the neurosurgeon, would probably never know where to start.
The same is true for the farmer. As he approaches his patients head with a scythe, the patient is destined never to recover.
Now you may assume that anyone can clean toilets. I can assure you I have applied, but it is then a shock to find that no-one will employ someone educated to do such a job. They just won't.
For a long time I was like yourself. I just assumed that there was a hierarchy of jobs. I assumed that if I ever lost my "good job", I'd just take one lower down the ladder and everything would be all-right. I know differently now. I suspect you are also fairly young, and having consulted the old, I am now aware that this problem gets worse as you get older. So, if you have not encountered it yet, you will, unless you're very lucky indeed.
Be aware, that it is my kind hearted nature which is telling you this.
The most interesting aspect of this situation, is that I have previously been economical with the truth, by hiding knowledge and experience that I have, in order to get a careful target job I knew I could do. Wrong, perhaps, but when in need.
This experience gave me some insight, into why employers do not wish to place educated people into lesser jobs, and I will explain. Because you are better than your boss at what he does, you naturally point out to him what the problems will be. You try not to patronise him, but in principle he is likely to be offended. He will resist your advice, but be assured he will fall into the trap you describe, unless he invents a new solution or follows your advice.
This leads to one of many problems;
1) You never make any comment about the upcoming problems, as a means of appeasement. Gradually as time goes on, you get fed up with sitting around waiting for people to fix their problems. Others make mistakes on your behalf, and you have to live with them. People wonder why you get angry.
2) Your boss gets more and more angry and uncomfortable with you. Firstly he's not stupid, and he recognises that you are doing things differently from the prescribed method. The results are the same or better, even within applied limits. He wonders why you've not explained to him how to do it before. He also wonders why you watched him fail and said nothing.
3) There are plenty more, but I don't feel the need to go further.
There is no denying that ultimately it results in anger. You only have to look at the newspapers to see it. As I type this now, a story of which I have no prior knowledge has come on the news. It describes just this anger.
Not only is there the natural difficulty of career movement for the old. There is now a definite difficulty for anyone to get to the place where they will be of the greatest benefit to everyone. The Labour employment legislation is largely responsible for this. The workhouse just makes it worse. As has already been alluded on this thread, the proponents of the workhouse also hope to ensure people in the workhouse cannot escape it. If you need a skill that's in there, you can't get it out.
Labour has "fixed it" with immigration. Employers are now upset that they can't pay British people the same as the immigrants, now the immigrants are fed up and have started leaving. The British are fed up because they can't get a job, which has an immigrant in it.
Somehow binmen in Birmingham earn £30K, but I'm pretty sure they don't earn that in Brighton. It depends greatly on your geography.
This the is the basis for my assumption on your narrow view. I don't think I'm wrong, and you don't need to be sorry.
TheCarpetCleaner said:
RV8 said:
You haven't seen my CV or where I've been in life but rest assured it hasn't bothered any employer to date when they know how far from grace I may have fallen, they were more concerned if there were any extended periods being out of work, perhaps this is a problem some job seekers find.
Without getting drawn into the main arguement, I totally agree with this.Far too many people who were unemployed complaining that they could not get a job, when there were actually loads of jobs in shelf stacking, temp data entry, bar work, whatever - but its "not what they wanted to do"
If I needed to earn money tomorrow, I would do whatever is required. I have never signed on for that reason.
ks we get when we apply for them)dilbert said:
bla bla bla
Well... that was a rather patronizing post, two can play at that game.Oh, I take my genuine apology back
You don't know me, you are making a lot of wild assumptions about me, all of which are wrong. I've hit a raw nerve in you. I couldn't care less now because you seem intent to draw conclusions about me and are making it personal.
You don't agree with me and think I have a narrow view. I think yours is laughably narrow; Being told about the way under-employment works by someone who is unemployed while I am under-employed and have been before. Bravo. I spend a substantial amount of my time in the situations you speak of whereas you hypothetically state scenarios you are not part of. Ironic.
Sit back and learn something new, perhaps you need to stop worrying about not liking the people you work with (or more likely them getting the hump with you) because you feel more qualified than them. If you are worried about being so angry at work, it is no surprise, you seem bad enough on a bloody forum, I'm glad I don't have to put up with you at work as-well... nightmare.
1. If you don't like the way your boss does his job and have tried helping and it turns messy; find another job or put up.
2. If your colleagues are idiots; find another job or put up.
3. If you are so intolerable to deal with that you get the back up of everyone you work with due to your high and mighty attitude; then best find another job before you get lynched or hope they put up.
You may or may not notice, there is a pattern forming here.
Quite often you are employed on the strength of your attitude and how easy you will fit in with the current workforce, attitude problems with authority you mention, or of any kind, don't help; Taking under-employment, if you have a problem with authority (which you clearly do if believe having a boss less qualified than you would anger you) - you need to get with reality - you dont have to be under-employed for this to happen in-fact it is common to have a clueless boss and common in many jobs to have clueless work mates - that is life, you get on with it.
Long gaps in your work history are not a good sign as it shows either an inability to find work, lack of work ethic, that you may have been turned down numerous times for other similar positions you have interviewed for over a long period and not bothered trying for something else, perhaps also that you are unable to adapt to change.
Wether you like it or not these are truthful observations I have made.
Over-skilled to stack shelves my arse. Over-inflated opinion of oneself more likely.
Edited by RV8 on Wednesday 28th April 01:05
i don't agree - it is intolerable to work in conditions where you can see much better ways of doing things but are prevented from being able to suggest/implement them. Basically if you have a certain level of intellect/capacity for independent though, it is soul destroying to do a job where you can not excercise this. The problem is compounded where you are not allowed to excercise it.
example:
I used to work in sainsbury's on the checkouts. The shop was very quiet, and I had a piece of paper and a pencil at my till. I decided to calculate how many possible ways there were of arranging the 40 or so cashiers on the 40 tills. This is a simple calculation... 40! (assuming you have all combinations of 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. cashiers). So there I was, sitting at my till working out 1 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 5... x 39 x 40. As I said the shop was quiet so I was not causing any problem. Up comes the checkout manager dude...
"what are you doing?"
"oh, I'm calculating 40!, I wanted to work out how many different ways of arranging all the cashiers there were"
"well, we can't have you doing that, can we?"
(takes pencil).
WTF??
stupid people who have intelligent people working for them get scared.
example:
I used to work in sainsbury's on the checkouts. The shop was very quiet, and I had a piece of paper and a pencil at my till. I decided to calculate how many possible ways there were of arranging the 40 or so cashiers on the 40 tills. This is a simple calculation... 40! (assuming you have all combinations of 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. cashiers). So there I was, sitting at my till working out 1 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 5... x 39 x 40. As I said the shop was quiet so I was not causing any problem. Up comes the checkout manager dude...
"what are you doing?"
"oh, I'm calculating 40!, I wanted to work out how many different ways of arranging all the cashiers there were"
"well, we can't have you doing that, can we?"
(takes pencil).
WTF??
stupid people who have intelligent people working for them get scared.
Eric Mc said:
It's tough being a genius.
I'm not looking for sympathy here, I'm trying to make a point against the workhouse.What I find odd is that RV8 is claiming;
I'm not part of my own situation.
He's got it harder than I could imagine.
He wants the workhouse. (By association with the idea that he's not in favour of "those who cannot be bothered to work". It is notable that most in favour of the workhouse have that attitude.)
I'm struggling with that a bit. It doesn't seem to add up.
Edited by dilbert on Wednesday 28th April 09:18
I'm not claiming anything about you Dilbert.
I don't doubt that you have skills to offer but you are less use while you are not using them and doing nothing than you would be doing something. Just incase you think I am targeting you specifically - this applies to anyone with specific skills or qualifications. People should take pride in whatever they can do and the fact that they can do something, rather than feeling like they are being undervalued - if you value your contribution and so does your family you don't need anyone else approval because having the ability to take a lesser job to provide for yourself or your family is not a failure, it is a virtue.
I don't doubt that you have skills to offer but you are less use while you are not using them and doing nothing than you would be doing something. Just incase you think I am targeting you specifically - this applies to anyone with specific skills or qualifications. People should take pride in whatever they can do and the fact that they can do something, rather than feeling like they are being undervalued - if you value your contribution and so does your family you don't need anyone else approval because having the ability to take a lesser job to provide for yourself or your family is not a failure, it is a virtue.
dilbert said:
Eric Mc said:
It's tough being a genius.
I'm not looking for sympathy here, I'm trying to make a point against the workhouse.What I find odd is that RV8 is claiming;
I'm not part of my own situation.
He's got it harder than I could imagine.
He wants the workhouse. (By association with the idea that he's not in favour of "those who cannot be bothered to work". It is notable that most in favour of the workhouse have that attitude.)
I'm struggling with that a bit. It doesn't seem to add up.
Edited by dilbert on Wednesday 28th April 09:18
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