How many Romanian/Bulgarian migrants are you predicting?

[JagLover]

Digga said:

s Farage has pointed out, economics do not, necessarily, trump quality of life.

Bringing increasingly large chunks of the third (or second rate) world over here, not unsurprisingly, turns parts of the country into second/third world ghettos and visits other unpleasant side-effects on many other parts of the country. There is a balance needed and there is also the need to think about right and wrong candidates for immigration.

Quite right

GDP is only an approximation of what is really important-standard of living. Income is an important part of this but so is housing costs, green spaces, congestion on the transport network etc.

[blindswelledrat]

powerstroke said:

It's nothing to do with right or left wing!!
It's about right or wrong for our country...

You sound like a walking political cliché generator.
The point is about the twisting of reality and the double standards.
Same people are on benefits claiming threads shouting about what scum they all are, and two minutes later when its time to have a pop at foreigners, these poor benefits people are 'victims'

[powerstroke]

blindswelledrat said:

powerstroke said:

It's nothing to do with right or left wing!!
It's about right or wrong for our country...

You sound like a walking political cliché generator.
The point is about the twisting of reality and the double standards.
Same people are on benefits claiming threads shouting about what scum they all are, and two minutes later when its time to have a pop at foreigners, these poor benefits people are 'victims'

oh !!!!

[Digga]

blindswelledrat said:

Digga said:

I don't see it that way - far right is about making money, but is also ultra-conservative (deliberate lower-case "c") and wants to maintain a 'traditional' nation.

But far right should and would be hugely intolerant of the freeloading element of our society.
Yet suddenly they seem to be 'victims' rather than 'scum' in order to twist things to support the xenophobia. That all that KP was saying.

Like all PH political threads, the ones that don't get bored are the ones arguing the extremes and ones that will argue black is white to support their stance. THese type of threads never end up bearing any relation to reality

In a way, I should perhaps have said conservative, rather than far right.

However, if you think the far right does not draw support from poorer parts of the working classes, as well as the non-working classes, then it is you who is detached from reality. Check out all the various EDL videos and have a think about what sort of jobs, if any, you'd trust their average foot soldiers with.

[porridge]

blindswelledrat said:

I find it utterly incredible how your mind twists everything you read to make foreigners look grim.
Any normal person who reads that article would see that it is about the fact that despite all the hysteria from people like you, the bus from Romania contained only one Romanian bound for London who already worked here and reading that article he is of the type who is very welcome as far as I am concerned.
It is also reassuring that it suggests that the majority of Romanians (if that bus sample is anything to go by) find Germany a much more attractive proposition.

I find it utterly incredible how your people like you do not care about anything beyond the end of your own nose.

Any normal person would not look at the fact that "only one is going to the UK" (as you know politicians have dodged this bullet with the 'self-employed' early entry scam), but instead a normal person would question the principle of uncontrolled European borders amongst countries with wildly differing incomes and corruption levels.

It does not matter where they go, it is the fact they can can go against the host countries wishes that is the issue and with zero assessment of what they have to offer or their history.

[blindswelledrat]

Sorry Porridge, I didn't realise you cared so much about the domestic situations of other European countries, I mistook your stance to be a nationalistic one.
Life must be stressful for you having all this angst for all our European counterparts. Out of curiosity - what determines in your head which countries are 'victims' of this type of thing?
Or is it just that you pick a certain nation as predominantly 'bad' and align yourself with any country who any of their residents visit?
I don't understand.

[blindswelledrat]

Digga said:

However, if you think the far right does not draw support from poorer parts of the working classes, as well as the non-working classes, then it is you who is detached from reality. Check out all the various EDL videos and have a think about what sort of jobs, if any, you'd trust their average foot soldiers with.

I suppose you are right and this thread demonstrates that. Im just surprised, that's all. I consider it to be strange selective intolerance.

[Digga]

blindswelledrat said:

Digga said:

However, if you think the far right does not draw support from poorer parts of the working classes, as well as the non-working classes, then it is you who is detached from reality. Check out all the various EDL videos and have a think about what sort of jobs, if any, you'd trust their average foot soldiers with.

I suppose you are right and this thread demonstrates that. Im just surprised, that's all. I consider it to be strange selective intolerance.

For me - and I can only speak personally here - I have no problem with races or nations coming here, to work, or as genuine refugees.

What I don't want is to have to live next door to the third world. Fortunately (selfishly), I can afford to live a long way from poverty (although you are never far enough from the roaming criminal or litter-dropping scumbag), but I would not like to think those less affluent would need to be neighbours with crime and squalor. However, that is starting to happen in many areas and could lead to a downward spiral and ghettos of sub-human living conditions and epidemics of disease and vermin.

[porridge]

blindswelledrat said:

Sorry Porridge, I didn't realise you cared so much about the domestic situations of other European countries, I mistook your stance to be a nationalistic one.
Life must be stressful for you having all this angst for all our European counterparts. Out of curiosity - what determines in your head which countries are 'victims' of this type of thing?
Or is it just that you pick a certain nation as predominantly 'bad' and align yourself with any country who any of their residents visit?
I don't understand.

I have worked/travelled extensively in Europe and across the world. I am not a blind nationalist or indeed a blind liberal... It is not a matter of choosing a 'victim', but of considering a policy that allows no controls over immigration- the inability to pick a certain individual as bad to paraphrase some of your trolling reply.

What I also have is have is something people like you seem to lack, the ability to consider the wider picture and impact on people other than yourself. Put down the Guardian and go and see what life is actually like.

[Kermit power]

Digga said:

blindswelledrat said:

Digga said:

I don't see it that way - far right is about making money, but is also ultra-conservative (deliberate lower-case "c") and wants to maintain a 'traditional' nation.

But far right should and would be hugely intolerant of the freeloading element of our society.
Yet suddenly they seem to be 'victims' rather than 'scum' in order to twist things to support the xenophobia. That all that KP was saying.

Like all PH political threads, the ones that don't get bored are the ones arguing the extremes and ones that will argue black is white to support their stance. THese type of threads never end up bearing any relation to reality

In a way, I should perhaps have said conservative, rather than far right.

However, if you think the far right does not draw support from poorer parts of the working classes, as well as the non-working classes, then it is you who is detached from reality. Check out all the various EDL videos and have a think about what sort of jobs, if any, you'd trust their average foot soldiers with.

I think it's a red herring to immediately ascribe the viewpoint to just the far right.

I'm right wing, but certainly not to any extreme extent, especially compared to many on here. This is why it confuses me. I see lots of people whom I've always assumed to share a similar political outlook to me taking a political position on immigration which is, to me, complete anathema, and about as far removed from my political position as it's possible to get.

The only thing I can put it down to is that having lived in multiple countries, I don't get hung up over the perceived importance of a nation state.

[Mrr T]

Digga said:

For me - and I can only speak personally here - I have no problem with races or nations coming here, to work, or as genuine refugees.

What I don't want is to have to live next door to the third world. Fortunately (selfishly), I can afford to live a long way from poverty (although you are never far enough from the roaming criminal or litter-dropping scumbag), but I would not like to think those less affluent would need to be neighbours with crime and squalor. However, that is starting to happen in many areas and could lead to a downward spiral and ghettos of sub-human living conditions and epidemics of disease and vermin.

Are you refering to Romanians or Bulgarians here?

[Digga]

Mrr T said:

Digga said:

For me - and I can only speak personally here - I have no problem with races or nations coming here, to work, or as genuine refugees.

What I don't want is to have to live next door to the third world. Fortunately (selfishly), I can afford to live a long way from poverty (although you are never far enough from the roaming criminal or litter-dropping scumbag), but I would not like to think those less affluent would need to be neighbours with crime and squalor. However, that is starting to happen in many areas and could lead to a downward spiral and ghettos of sub-human living conditions and epidemics of disease and vermin.

Are you refering to Romanians or Bulgarians here?

Neither and both.

What (and I thought this was clear) I am getting at is that is you allow the least skilled and educated members of any nation into the UK, in numbers, you will get ghettos which resemble somewhere that other immigrants and UK residents would not recognise as the UK or wish to live in or near and where basic law and sanitation fall below the standards we would all look to uphold.

[Mermaid]

Digga said:

Neither and both.

What (and I thought this was clear) I am getting at is that is you allow the least skilled and educated members of any nation into the UK, in numbers, you will get ghettos which resemble somewhere that other immigrants and UK residents would not recognise as the UK or wish to live in or near and where basic law and sanitation fall below the standards we would all look to uphold.

You mean parts of Southall look like Soweto.

Travelled through Southall a few months ago, looks like not a farthing has been spent on upkeep of the area since the end of 1960

[blindswelledrat]

Digga said:

For me - and I can only speak personally here - I have no problem with races or nations coming here, to work, or as genuine refugees.

What I don't want is to have to live next door to the third world. Fortunately (selfishly), I can afford to live a long way from poverty (although you are never far enough from the roaming criminal or litter-dropping scumbag), but I would not like to think those less affluent would need to be neighbours with crime and squalor. However, that is starting to happen in many areas and could lead to a downward spiral and ghettos of sub-human living conditions and epidemics of disease and vermin.

I agree with this, but is this really an immigration issue? Is it worsening?
I see it as a poverty issue rather than an immigration one. Whether white English, Eastern European, black Carribean - poor areas are st and full of crime.
Has immigration caused previously nice areas to be suddenly st on any significant scale? Proportionally are there now a greater prevalence of these type of areas than 40 years ago?
I don't know the answer but I suspect not

[Digga]

Guam said:

No, you mean that the rising numbers of plastic bags full of human st, in hedgerows and in lay bys may have an overseas origin?
Well I never.

We managed to get the Euros excluded from parking overnight on our industrial estate. In the process of so doing, it was apparent from talking to the local Environmental Health officers, what a significant problem this is. Aside from health concerns, our local HGV training instructors also talk about the state of some of these trucks which are effectively based in or operating from the UK but, obviously, without any maintenance facilites.

blindswelledrat said:

I agree with this, but is this really an immigration issue? Is it worsening?

As I said previously, watch the programme - about 15 mins in and decide for yourself.

[blindswelledrat]

porridge said:

I have worked/travelled extensively in Europe and across the world. I am not a blind nationalist or indeed a blind liberal... It is not a matter of choosing a 'victim', but of considering a policy that allows no controls over immigration- the inability to pick a certain individual as bad to paraphrase some of your trolling reply.

What I also have is have is something people like you seem to lack, the ability to consider the wider picture and impact on people other than yourself. Put down the Guardian and go and see what life is actually like.

But we are not referring to a controlled immigration policy, we are discussing your bus full of nasty people who you used as an example to demonstrate your non existent point. What you have said there has nothing to do with that.
Ill grant you the second part of your post despite it being contradictory. Guardian lefties are exactly the sort of people who worry about the feckless and lazy. You are right that I don't. I am selfish in that regard and I believe that everyone in the country has opportunities to make whatever they want out of themselves and so I don't spend my life crying over those who don't grasp those opportunities. Every single white English person has greater opportunities in this country than an immigrant of the same calibre.
Most successful people in the UK began life earning near to minimum wage.
Those that feel they are above starting out, and above the immigrants are the ones that are actually below them as far as I am concerned.
Who's the lefty here Porridge- you or I?

[Mrr T]

Digga said:

Mrr T said:

Digga said:

For me - and I can only speak personally here - I have no problem with races or nations coming here, to work, or as genuine refugees.

What I don't want is to have to live next door to the third world. Fortunately (selfishly), I can afford to live a long way from poverty (although you are never far enough from the roaming criminal or litter-dropping scumbag), but I would not like to think those less affluent would need to be neighbours with crime and squalor. However, that is starting to happen in many areas and could lead to a downward spiral and ghettos of sub-human living conditions and epidemics of disease and vermin.

Are you refering to Romanians or Bulgarians here?

Neither and both.

What (and I thought this was clear) I am getting at is that is you allow the least skilled and educated members of any nation into the UK, in numbers, you will get ghettos which resemble somewhere that other immigrants and UK residents would not recognise as the UK or wish to live in or near and where basic law and sanitation fall below the standards we would all look to uphold.

So you are suggesting there will be Romanian and Bulgarian ghettos in the UK in 2014. You really are rather racist.

[vonuber]

Joe Hart wuold love this thread at the moment.

[porridge]

blindswelledrat said:

But we are not referring to a controlled immigration policy

The bus full of people are travelling due to a lack of controls, this is exactly what we are referring to? without this issue the conversation would not exist.

blindswelledrat said:

Most successful people in the UK began life earning near to minimum wage.

Think you will find UK social mobility studies show that the majority beginning life near minimum wage, will end life near minimum wage as will their offspring. If you school has expanded over a single summer with temp cabins to accommodate unexpected new arrivals who also take up additional funding for language needs than that is not going to help is it? there are parents failing to get a place in any nearby school.

blindswelledrat said:

Every single white English person has greater opportunities in this country than an immigrant of the same calibre.

Firstly let's lose the 'white' part, a UK unskilled citizen cannot compete with 1)illegal workers or 2) workers willing to shack up 10 to a small flat to send money home. What you are advocating is not competition to drive quality of life forward, but instead a backward move for UK citizens to 3rd world standards.

Not to mention the factual evidence from Teachers, NHS and Councils of the struggle in infrastructure.

Open Door immigration is madness, work out how many people we need and what skill-sets are required and then let them in from Romania/Bulgaria or anywhere else on permits of a suitable timeframe.

[muffinmenace]

Mrr T said:

So you are suggesting there will be Romanian and Bulgarian ghettos in the UK in 2014. You really are rather racist.

That's not what he is saying at all. A well publicised issue that does back up his poi is the houses in the suburbs of London that boast large undeclared living space at the back, they seem somewhat ghetto-esque, no?