Rishi Sunak - Prime Minister

[Mr Penguin]

blueg33 said:

Our politicians are quite happy to say someone with cancer or a broken leg should be treated free of charge but you think that people with equally serious mental health issues should pay for themselves. The comparison up the thread with dentists and opticians is puerile and an absolute demonstration of not having a clue.

I was referring to this on an individual level, not a societal one where it is worth spending money to get people off benefits and into work.

I'll cede to your experience that mental health conditions only affect the poor.

[Electro1980]

The whole sodding conversation is about people not working due to ill health and being unable to access healthcare. No one said private healthcare wasn’t available. Of course it is, but even for most average working people the cost of private therapy is unaffordable. You even admit that yourself with your example of someone needing family help to afford it. That’s not a practical solution to the problem at hand.

Edited by Electro1980 on Sunday 21st April 10:35

[bitchstewie]

I think albeit out of a bit of perhaps naivety rather than malice Mr Penguin highlights how mental health is seen by some people.

Substitute "mental health" with "broken leg" stopping you working and I do wonder if it would be the same conversation about asking parents or family or using any savings you may have to chip in to pay to have it fixed so you could get back to wok because the Government are unwilling or unable to do so.

[blueg33]

bhstewie said:

I think albeit out of a bit of perhaps naivety rather than malice Mr Penguin highlights how mental health is seen by some people.

Indeed. And it’s an attitude and lack of education, thought and empathy that needs to be addressed. Otherwise we will continue to have young men kill themselves, people unable to go to work etc.

It’s absolutely correct that these people would say it’s wrong treat a broken leg 3 years after it occurred but they give zero thought to an illness that’s fatal for so many and doesn’t get treated because it’s not visible

[Blue62]

blueg33 said:

Indeed. And it’s an attitude and lack of education, thought and empathy that needs to be addressed. Otherwise we will continue to have young men kill themselves, people unable to go to work etc.

It’s absolutely correct that these people would say it’s wrong treat a broken leg 3 years after it occurred but they give zero thought to an illness that’s fatal for so many and doesn’t get treated because it’s not visible

That isn’t what drives the scepticism though, they have an innate belief that is just a front to cover up the fact that they’re feckless, lazy malingerers. Of course some will conform to that stereotype, which simply adds grist to the mill, encouraged by the media and idiots like Braverman, Truss and Raab, who published the thoroughly disgusting, poorly researched and written ‘the idleness of the British worker’.

We need to shift attitudes, but in reality it’s about educating the young and waiting for the other idiots to die off.

[Mr Penguin]

bhstewie said:

I think albeit out of a bit of perhaps naivety rather than malice Mr Penguin highlights how mental health is seen by some people.

Substitute "mental health" with "broken leg" stopping you working and I do wonder if it would be the same conversation about asking parents or family or using any savings you may have to chip in to pay to have it fixed so you could get back to wok because the Government are unwilling or unable to do so.

People do pay for doctors because of the waiting lists, I've done it myself when GPs refused to accept that I had symptoms or simply wouldn't see me. Mental health is just the counterpart to physical health so should be seen in the same way IMO.

[President Merkin]

The signature feature of Toy policies over the past decade is a focus on the means rather than the ends. Austerity was sold as a way to fix the economy but led directly to suffering & stagnation, The crackdown on rough sleepig that saw rough sleeping climb by a third. The belief is that toughness is a virtue in itself not regardless of but specifically because of the damage they inflict. The cruety is the point,

[bitchstewie]

Mr Penguin said:

People do pay for doctors because of the waiting lists, I've done it myself when GPs refused to accept that I had symptoms or simply wouldn't see me. Mental health is just the counterpart to physical health so should be seen in the same way IMO.

Some do my mum has done so with an ear condition.

Sorry but I still think isn't seen the same way.

The Government have shown it this week and we see it in society and on here on a daily basis "man up" and "pull yourself out of it" etc.

[valiant]

Mr Penguin said:

People do pay for doctors because of the waiting lists, I've done it myself when GPs refused to accept that I had symptoms or simply wouldn't see me. Mental health is just the counterpart to physical health so should be seen in the same way IMO.

Are you working?

Do you earn a decent wage?

Was one visit to a private GP enough?

Now imagine you’re on benefits and unable to work. How are you going to afford multiple visits per month? What about the month after that? And after that?

Mental health is not a quick prescription and see you in six months.

[Boringvolvodriver]

valiant said:

Mr Penguin said:

People do pay for doctors because of the waiting lists, I've done it myself when GPs refused to accept that I had symptoms or simply wouldn't see me. Mental health is just the counterpart to physical health so should be seen in the same way IMO.

Are you working?

Do you earn a decent wage?

Was one visit to a private GP enough?

Now imagine you’re on benefits and unable to work. How are you going to afford multiple visits per month? What about the month after that? And after that?

Mental health is not a quick prescription and see you in six months.

I think that many people who have not had mental health issues or known someone close to them with them have a different view to those that have had. It is very easy to dismiss the issues and very difficult to treat.

[Mr Penguin]

bhstewie said:

Some do my mum has done so with an ear condition.

Sorry but I still think isn't seen the same way.

The Government have shown it this week and we see it in society and on here on a daily basis "man up" and "pull yourself out of it" etc.

IMO if people don't think mental health is important enough to want to do something about it themselves then they won't take help from the government.

Some people should man up, some people should see psychiatrists, some people are in the middle.

[Electro1980]

valiant said:

Mr Penguin said:

People do pay for doctors because of the waiting lists, I've done it myself when GPs refused to accept that I had symptoms or simply wouldn't see me. Mental health is just the counterpart to physical health so should be seen in the same way IMO.

Are you working?

Do you earn a decent wage?

Was one visit to a private GP enough?

Now imagine you’re on benefits and unable to work. How are you going to afford multiple visits per month? What about the month after that? And after that?

Mental health is not a quick prescription and see you in six months.

Even if you are working it’s sodding expensive, and also not a simple thing to cost. I can got to BUPA, Nuffield health and many more to get a precise cost for all sorts of operations and decide if it is worth it for me. Mental healthcare, not so much. Same with many chronic conditions.

Regardless, the vast majority of people are not using private healthcare. Probably far more using private mental healthcare than physical, but that doesn’t mean it’s an option available to all or even most. Saying it’s available doesn’t fix the issue that’s being addressed. Saying people who are off work long term with mental health problems are failing to take responsibility because they are not seeking private treatment is, frankly, ridiculous.

I’m aware of how luck I am being able to afford private treatment for some things. I have been through it, and I have paid for it. I am also struggling with other health conditions where I am on long waiting lists, but I can’t afford to do everything like that, and now, because private healthcare is personal rather than employer driver in most cases in the UK, I can’t get cover for those pre existing conditions now I can afford it, and there is no way I can afford to pay out of pocket for all of it. So, I’m just said waiting for multiple multi year waiting lists on the NHS. I’m sure many others are caught in the same trap.

[bitchstewie]

Mr Penguin said:

IMO if people don't think mental health is important enough to want to do something about it themselves then they won't take help from the government.

Some people should man up, some people should see psychiatrists, some people are in the middle.

And there you have it.

The range of things someone with fk all in savings or family or a support network can do is very small.

[valiant]

Mr Penguin said:

bhstewie said:

Some do my mum has done so with an ear condition.

Sorry but I still think isn't seen the same way.

The Government have shown it this week and we see it in society and on here on a daily basis "man up" and "pull yourself out of it" etc.

IMO if people don't think mental health is important enough to want to do something about it themselves then they won't take help from the government.

Some people should man up, some people should see psychiatrists, some people are in the middle.

But they will take help from the NHS if it was available and easily accessible.

You are wilfully ignoring what the government wants to do and that is to get those on long term sick and claiming benefits into work. On the face of it, it’s a laudable aim but the reality will be anything but. There will be no massive injection of cash into mental health resources to try and support those who want and desperately need help. Mental health is criminally underfunded and under resourced and as a previous poster said, unless you are suicidal or a danger to others, there is virtually no help available and even if you are suicidal, you get about 4 sessions. I speak from experience there with a close family member. When you’ve finished what they offer, you’re given numbers for private treatment. If you can’t afford it then tough.

It also seems that medical professionals who know the patient will not be the ones who decide who is fit for work and who isn’t. So the question is, who is? Will it a DHSS bod? Will it be a Capita drone following a flow chart? We don’t know but that’s good enough for some who’ve already decided that those long term sick are all malingerers and playing the system.

Now, I don’t doubt there are plenty who do play the system and whenever these types of threads come up we have PHers who know someone living in a large house, goes on holiday twice a year and has a new car on the drive and are living off the government teet. But for every scrounger, there are plenty who want to work but can’t. They can’t access the meagre care on offer and yet they will be the ones who will lose their benefits. The ‘professional’ scroungers know the system backwards and will not really be affected by this even though it’s them who are targeted. It’s the vulnerable and most in need who’ll have benefits cut and that will lead to tragedies.

I urge you to do the briefest of research into mental health provision in this country and then you may see how inadequate it is. Governments of all hues have neglected to invest and yet it’s a massive drag on productivity and sick costs. Unfortunately, mental health is a hidden disease and unless you have experienced it first hand or close by, then you’re pretty ignorant to how debilitating it can be.

[bitchstewie]

^^ This.

I had some issues a few years back after a break up and on a scale of 1 to 10 it was probably a 1 but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

That was a rough few weeks.

I can't really imagine that being permanent and worse and there being pretty much no provision in the health service to try to deal with it.

[Rufus Stone]

bhstewie said:

^^ This.

I had some issues a few years back after a break up and on a scale of 1 to 10 it was probably a 1 but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

That was a rough few weeks.

I can't really imagine that being permanent and worse and there being pretty much no provision in the health service to try to deal with it.

Sounds like the ups and downs of life to me Stewie. Most of us have been there at some point, including me, but I certainly never considered myself suffering a mental illness.

[bitchstewie]

Rufus Stone said:

Sounds like the ups and downs of life to me Stewie. Most of us have been there at some point, including me, but I certainly never considered myself suffering a mental illness.

With hindsight perhaps yes but at the time it certainly didn't feel like it.

Some people cope with "the ups and downs of life" better than others and a rough few weeks for me could see someone else shrugging it off whilst for someone else they would be giving a train driver a very bad day.

The point wasn't really about me the point was that I consider myself lucky but it still wasn't pleasant at the time - being in a much worse place and not being able to do a damned thing about it in terms of treatment or help seems a pretty grim place to be.

[Mr Penguin]

valiant said:

But they will take help from the NHS if it was available and easily accessible.

I genuinely don't see why someone would take help from the NHS while refusing help from elsewhere.

[valiant]

Mr Penguin said:

I genuinely don't see why someone would take help from the NHS while refusing help from elsewhere.

What is this 'elsewhere' help that can be accessed by someone of limited means?

[Mr Penguin]

valiant said:

What is this 'elsewhere' help that can be accessed by someone of limited means?

I've already said that the government should spend more on it.