Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)
Discussion
911hope said:
EU represents a pretty large market to trade with.
What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
And we continue to go around the same circles.What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
Most including me voted out knowing that we’d be out of the EU trading market.
911hope said:
EU represents a pretty large market to trade with.
What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
Clue - it wasn't just a trade deal.What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
Mrr T said:
It was Cameron, and it was a really bad idea done for party politics not the good of the country. While UKIP did well in the EU elections based on low turn out it was never going to get more than a couple of MP's. What it was doing was taking voters from the tories.
The fact is even if remain had won by a similar margin, Nige would not given up, so the referendum would never going to solved the Tory problem. I had always voted Tory but now cannot. The party has done more harm to the country than any other in the last 100 years. I could not vote for May or bJ so I did not vote. Made no difference where I lived. I know I can still vote but cannot be bothered to find out how.
It's not going round in circles we are just discussing history.
Were you (or anyone else on here) calling out the inadequacy of the rules when they were set for the vote? (amongst all the gas-bagging I cannot remember one utterance along these lines...if you can find a post, I'll donate to a charity of your choice). The caterwauling started when the result was clear.The fact is even if remain had won by a similar margin, Nige would not given up, so the referendum would never going to solved the Tory problem. I had always voted Tory but now cannot. The party has done more harm to the country than any other in the last 100 years. I could not vote for May or bJ so I did not vote. Made no difference where I lived. I know I can still vote but cannot be bothered to find out how.
It's not going round in circles we are just discussing history.
Did you vote for Cameron? (Did you think he'd renege on the vote?).
Nige could have moaned all he wanted. I cannot imagine many circumstances that would have allowed another vote in my lifetime and well beyond, no matter what direction the EU took.
And as for Cameron doing this for party politics and not the good of the country...I think you can level that about many "policies" for every govt in the last 30yrs. Principles have been well and truly sidelined over the desire for power. The system is broken and needs a reset. I see that as being under way now. Whether it will complete in my lifetime is debatable. But we'll see.
Murph7355 said:
Mrr T said:
It was Cameron, and it was a really bad idea done for party politics not the good of the country. While UKIP did well in the EU elections based on low turn out it was never going to get more than a couple of MP's. What it was doing was taking voters from the tories.
The fact is even if remain had won by a similar margin, Nige would not given up, so the referendum would never going to solved the Tory problem. I had always voted Tory but now cannot. The party has done more harm to the country than any other in the last 100 years. I could not vote for May or bJ so I did not vote. Made no difference where I lived. I know I can still vote but cannot be bothered to find out how.
It's not going round in circles we are just discussing history.
Were you (or anyone else on here) calling out the inadequacy of the rules when they were set for the vote? (amongst all the gas-bagging I cannot remember one utterance along these lines...if you can find a post, I'll donate to a charity of your choice). The caterwauling started when the result was clear.The fact is even if remain had won by a similar margin, Nige would not given up, so the referendum would never going to solved the Tory problem. I had always voted Tory but now cannot. The party has done more harm to the country than any other in the last 100 years. I could not vote for May or bJ so I did not vote. Made no difference where I lived. I know I can still vote but cannot be bothered to find out how.
It's not going round in circles we are just discussing history.
Did you vote for Cameron? (Did you think he'd renege on the vote?).
Nige could have moaned all he wanted. I cannot imagine many circumstances that would have allowed another vote in my lifetime and well beyond, no matter what direction the EU took.
And as for Cameron doing this for party politics and not the good of the country...I think you can level that about many "policies" for every govt in the last 30yrs. Principles have been well and truly sidelined over the desire for power. The system is broken and needs a reset. I see that as being under way now. Whether it will complete in my lifetime is debatable. But we'll see.
I voted for Cameron but disagreed with that policy. I did think it might be forgotten or certainly delayed to the end of office. Not sure if I posted any thing on the subject. While I had always been aware of how the EU worked in FS at that time I was just starting to read up on the subject. Hats off to EUReferendum.com.
While I agree if remain had won there would not have been another vote but that would not have stopped UKIP taking Tory votes.
I think most of the parties try to benefit the country. That gets more votes. The fact is at the time only UKIP wanted out and where taking Tory votes. It's also possible for the next party in power to reverse a position, leaving is almost impossible to reverse because of the opt outs.
Mrr T said:
Not going to look back that far. I was certainly against referendums. The first one under Cameron at al, had shown the UK politics and media could not even debate a change in the voting system.
I voted for Cameron but disagreed with that policy. I did think it might be forgotten or certainly delayed to the end of office. Not sure if I posted any thing on the subject. While I had always been aware of how the EU worked in FS at that time I was just starting to read up on the subject. Hats off to EUReferendum.com.
While I agree if remain had won there would not have been another vote but that would not have stopped UKIP taking Tory votes.
I think most of the parties try to benefit the country. That gets more votes. The fact is at the time only UKIP wanted out and where taking Tory votes. It's also possible for the next party in power to reverse a position, leaving is almost impossible to reverse because of the opt outs.
It was a cross party issue, voted through Parliament in a massive majority.I voted for Cameron but disagreed with that policy. I did think it might be forgotten or certainly delayed to the end of office. Not sure if I posted any thing on the subject. While I had always been aware of how the EU worked in FS at that time I was just starting to read up on the subject. Hats off to EUReferendum.com.
While I agree if remain had won there would not have been another vote but that would not have stopped UKIP taking Tory votes.
I think most of the parties try to benefit the country. That gets more votes. The fact is at the time only UKIP wanted out and where taking Tory votes. It's also possible for the next party in power to reverse a position, leaving is almost impossible to reverse because of the opt outs.
MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the bill to hold a referendum.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33067157
732NM said:
Mrr T said:
Not going to look back that far. I was certainly against referendums. The first one under Cameron at al, had shown the UK politics and media could not even debate a change in the voting system.
I voted for Cameron but disagreed with that policy. I did think it might be forgotten or certainly delayed to the end of office. Not sure if I posted any thing on the subject. While I had always been aware of how the EU worked in FS at that time I was just starting to read up on the subject. Hats off to EUReferendum.com.
While I agree if remain had won there would not have been another vote but that would not have stopped UKIP taking Tory votes.
I think most of the parties try to benefit the country. That gets more votes. The fact is at the time only UKIP wanted out and where taking Tory votes. It's also possible for the next party in power to reverse a position, leaving is almost impossible to reverse because of the opt outs.
It was a cross party issue, voted through Parliament in a massive majority.I voted for Cameron but disagreed with that policy. I did think it might be forgotten or certainly delayed to the end of office. Not sure if I posted any thing on the subject. While I had always been aware of how the EU worked in FS at that time I was just starting to read up on the subject. Hats off to EUReferendum.com.
While I agree if remain had won there would not have been another vote but that would not have stopped UKIP taking Tory votes.
I think most of the parties try to benefit the country. That gets more votes. The fact is at the time only UKIP wanted out and where taking Tory votes. It's also possible for the next party in power to reverse a position, leaving is almost impossible to reverse because of the opt outs.
MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the bill to hold a referendum.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33067157
The rumour was that Cameron only made the commitment because he expected a hung parliament and another coalition with the Lib Dems who would not have agreed to a referendum.
Edited by Mrr T on Sunday 19th May 10:31
Then you have a lousy memory and are not acknowledging the vote that occurred in parliament to enable a referendum to be held.
Labour opposed holding a referendum during the parliamentary election, as did the lib dems.
Post the parliamentary election, when they lost, they changed policy and supported holding a referendum.
Hence the historically huge majority vote on the bill to hold the referendum.
Labour opposed holding a referendum during the parliamentary election, as did the lib dems.
Post the parliamentary election, when they lost, they changed policy and supported holding a referendum.
Hence the historically huge majority vote on the bill to hold the referendum.
bad company said:
911hope said:
EU represents a pretty large market to trade with.
What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
And we continue to go around the same circles.What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
Most including me voted out knowing that we’d be out of the EU trading market.
732NM said:
Then you have a lousy memory and are not acknowledging the vote that occurred in parliament to enable a referendum to be held.
Labour opposed holding a referendum during the parliamentary election, as did the lib dems.
Post the parliamentary election, when they lost, they changed policy and supported holding a referendum.
Hence the historically huge majority vote on the bill to hold the referendum.
Since I said neither Labour or Lib Dems had it in there manifestos it seems I have a good memory. So if any result had occurred other than a Tory victory there would have been no referendum. So all down to Cameron.Labour opposed holding a referendum during the parliamentary election, as did the lib dems.
Post the parliamentary election, when they lost, they changed policy and supported holding a referendum.
Hence the historically huge majority vote on the bill to hold the referendum.
911hope said:
bad company said:
911hope said:
EU represents a pretty large market to trade with.
What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
And we continue to go around the same circles.What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
Most including me voted out knowing that we’d be out of the EU trading market.
For me the price of remaining was becoming too much. Years ago I voted to remain in the Common Market and would do so again.
bad company said:
911hope said:
bad company said:
911hope said:
EU represents a pretty large market to trade with.
What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
And we continue to go around the same circles.What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
Most including me voted out knowing that we’d be out of the EU trading market.
For me the price of remaining was becoming too much. Years ago I voted to remain in the Common Market and would do so again.
bad company said:
I don’t agree that there’s ‘a huge downside to leaving’ though obviously trading with the EU countries has become more complicated.
For me the price of remaining was becoming too much. Years ago I voted to remain in the Common Market and would do so again.
And you honestly don't think the price of brexit has become too much?For me the price of remaining was becoming too much. Years ago I voted to remain in the Common Market and would do so again.
M.
Mrr T said:
Not going to look back that far. I was certainly against referendums. The first one under Cameron at al, had shown the UK politics and media could not even debate a change in the voting system.
I voted for Cameron but disagreed with that policy. I did think it might be forgotten or certainly delayed to the end of office. Not sure if I posted any thing on the subject. While I had always been aware of how the EU worked in FS at that time I was just starting to read up on the subject. Hats off to EUReferendum.com.
While I agree if remain had won there would not have been another vote but that would not have stopped UKIP taking Tory votes.
I think most of the parties try to benefit the country. That gets more votes. The fact is at the time only UKIP wanted out and where taking Tory votes. It's also possible for the next party in power to reverse a position, leaving is almost impossible to reverse because of the opt outs.
So you want to discuss the history of it, but only as far as it supports your view I voted for Cameron but disagreed with that policy. I did think it might be forgotten or certainly delayed to the end of office. Not sure if I posted any thing on the subject. While I had always been aware of how the EU worked in FS at that time I was just starting to read up on the subject. Hats off to EUReferendum.com.
While I agree if remain had won there would not have been another vote but that would not have stopped UKIP taking Tory votes.
I think most of the parties try to benefit the country. That gets more votes. The fact is at the time only UKIP wanted out and where taking Tory votes. It's also possible for the next party in power to reverse a position, leaving is almost impossible to reverse because of the opt outs.
Quite clearly it was not only UKIP who wanted out. If it was, the chances of a campaign to leave garnering 17m votes would have been zero.
You continue to have a hugely head in sand attitude to our relationship with the EU, and the way our political leaders handled it from the point Major took us into Maastricht.
The whole "you wouldn't understand" schtick was wearing thin. IMO Cameron was as much choosing the moment he did because he felt he could win. Arrogantly he and the Remain side assumed it was a shoe in and their approach was shockingly lazy and deaf.
Had they waited, with everything that has happened geopolitically since (Covid, Ukraine, immigration fiasco etc), I suspect the result would not have been remotely close. (And I do not mean Remain winning). 2016 was the opportunity to kill it dead and they (and many Remain supporters) f
ked it. The EU could and should be a fantastic thing, if it didn't want to over reach in a whole variety of ways.
Mrr T said:
Since I said neither Labour or Lib Dems had it in there manifestos it seems I have a good memory. So if any result had occurred other than a Tory victory there would have been no referendum. So all down to Cameron.
All down the people of the UK voting for the party offering the referendum, you yourself did that.Then it was down to Parliament to create the bill to hold the referendum, which they did on a huge majority.
Then it was down to the people of the UK who voted to leave the EU with a majority.
Then it was down to Parliament to trigger article 50 and create the legislation to leave the EU.
Then it was down to the people of the UK who kicked out of parliament those MP's who refused to carry out the promises they made to respect the referendum result.
Then it was down to the government to carry out that promise, which they did.
And yet here you are trying to blame one bloke, who ran away mid process.
You voted for the referendum, it's on you, just like it's on the majority of the electorate.
bad company said:
911hope said:
bad company said:
911hope said:
EU represents a pretty large market to trade with.
What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
And we continue to go around the same circles.What on earth made people think it was a good idea to make this harder?
The answer is in the question. The thinking part was missing. Those 17 million people simply believed and that just isn't good enough.
Most including me voted out knowing that we’d be out of the EU trading market.
For me the price of remaining was becoming too much. Years ago I voted to remain in the Common Market and would do so again.
bad company said:
We all have our opinions on whether Brexit was or wasn’t a good thing. I just get fed up with the condescending attitude that over 17 million leave voters were at best naive or thick as mince.
Maybe those Remoaners don’t believe in giving normal folk votes so might prefer living in say China or North Korea.
"I don't want to be told I'm doing something stupid when I'm doing something stupid"Maybe those Remoaners don’t believe in giving normal folk votes so might prefer living in say China or North Korea.
F1GTRUeno said:
"I don't want to be told I'm doing something stupid when I'm doing something stupid"
Voting for brexit wasn't stupid. Brexit did (and still could) present many opportunities.However, pretending it's all sunshine amd roses, and executed perfectly to plan, and not changing anything is in the best interests pf the UK, is unbelievably stupid.
M.
https://news.sky.com/story/4-7bn-spent-on-eu-borde...
More Brexit benefits!
"Traders are facing increased costs and more paperwork due to Brexit border controls, according to a new report from the independent public spending watchdog.
The government is estimated to have spent £4.7bn so far but some of that spending was not necessary, the National Audit Office (NAO) has said.
Despite the UK voting to leave the European Union in 2016 - and officially exiting in 2020 - many border control checks are yet to be implemented"
More Brexit benefits!
"Traders are facing increased costs and more paperwork due to Brexit border controls, according to a new report from the independent public spending watchdog.
The government is estimated to have spent £4.7bn so far but some of that spending was not necessary, the National Audit Office (NAO) has said.
Despite the UK voting to leave the European Union in 2016 - and officially exiting in 2020 - many border control checks are yet to be implemented"
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