U.S. foils Iran-backed terror plot
Discussion
Jimbeaux said:
Melvin Udall said:
Jimbeaux said:
Hard to know. I suppose the world will have to depend of the IAEA or whatever that subset is of the sterling bastion of dependability that is the U.N.
Come on Jim. We detected non-existent weapons easily enough. Real ones should be a doddle, shouldn't they?Jimbeaux said:
Then they may just welcome having the current fools in charge run off. Better yet, if they value freedom as you say, why don't they do as others have and free themselves from the hatters that control them now? BTW, this: " Home and identity are powerful concepts to many Iranians"; that works that way here as well.
It's an interesting question and the answer is actually a complex one and involves family. Iran lost a million odd people in the Iran/Iraq war and many families lost a number of children. This is the generation now of the 40 somethings and older who had children after the war ended and even during the war to replace their lost ones.My wife and her friends who fought in the war, told me a sobering story about those who fought in the front lines, my wife included. There were the fanatics and then there were the 'normal' citizens, those conscripted to their 2 years military service who had no choice but go and fight. Like many soldiers throughout the world, they carry talismans , except those who fought for the regime, ran to their deaths with a plastic key around their necks... the key to heaven. Those who did not suffer that zealousness, carried alsorts of other things. Both groups of people died in their hundreds of thousands, but even then, there was the conflict between those that would happily run to their brutal deaths and those who did not run straight into a wall of machine gun fire; those who wanted to live.
And those that survived, my friends included, went on to have children of their own. As did those who lost their sons and daughters in the war. So, in Iran now there are many families of several generations, who carry the scars of lost children, lost brothers and sisters, in fact probably more families in Iran have lost a close relative to the war than not.
What would you do.... you're a family man who carries the scars of war and who remembers the brutality of one of the last mass murder 'old school' battlelines, fought with clubs and stones and god knows what else.. and you remember all of it. So when your child complains about the regime and wanting freedom, what would you say to them?
Iran took a beating in that war. All parts of the nation did. But now, the point of no return is being reached in Iran. And it's not to do with the regime changing, or becoming more tolerant, it's because those who remember the war, those who lived through it, are now older and dying off. As memory fades, as those who would protect their children and grand children now die off, the younger voice shouts more loudly for freedom, not really understanding the price they will pay.
But so do the voices of the Bazaaries and the Revolutionary guards, those well paid henchmen of the regime, who guard with fierce brutality their dogmameisters and pay masters. They have guns galore and no quams, not a seconds thought or regard for taking life. A 'real' uprising that threatened the regime would be put down with a brutality you can scant imagine. There would be mass executions and death on a huge scale. There are no guns to fight and the mullahs, these old men in robes have nothing to lose. They and their followers would fight to the death. What is the alternative? They go to heaven if they lose and heaven awaits them if they win.
Iran is such a complex society. It is not straight forward at all and the ebbs and flows of political life, coupled with the base level brutal iron fist make an uneasy mix. Society is changing, the voice of the young is rising. Many of those growing up now do voice the opinion of 'we'd rather die than live like this'... but there are still enough of those who remember what is like to survive when those friends around them were torn apart by bombs, keep them in check. For now.
The old political dogma of America the 'Great Satan' and the beliefs of behind the gung-ho grunt there is a cunning Englishman pulling the strings, is fading. For many years the regime used that fear of infiltration, foreign intervention and string pulling as a means to keep people under control. But great swathes of society no longer believe it. This is dying off and what you see at the 'down down USA..' type shows, the renta-mob of the mainly real religious diehards, shipped in from Quom and other religious cities.
But the complex mix in all of this is the volatility of youth and the fact that if ever there was an invasion of Iran by western forces, notions of being 'Persian', descendents of Darius and Xerxes will come in to play and those that would stand against the regime today, would stand with them to defend their nation.
Time, it's all about timing. The regime are adapting to a younger population. They know they need to give them more space and flexibility than those say even 10 years ago. But they still rule with an iron fist and they won't think twice of bringing it down hard on those who would depose them.
Of course home and identity are true in the US as well. Personally I would hate to see a conflict between these two nations. As some have already said, in this part of the world, in so many ways the ties and bonds between the two nations are stronger than the differences. Iranians are a very proud and independent people. They take huge pride in their national identity, history, education and abilities. As a nation of peoples, they have been hijacked by a religious few and in part that was down to the screwups of a few select western nations.... We all pay the price for it and that part of the world should be more stable than it currently is. It's a profound shame that it is not.
All we can do is sit and watch and see what happens next. A premptive strike on Iran by the US or Israel would be catastrophic for the region and the rest of the world. It would unleash the worst excesses of the regime, both at home and abroad. Time... this comes done to time, timing and the clamour of the voice for change from within.
Melvin Udall said:
Jimbeaux said:
Melvin Udall said:
Jimbeaux said:
Hard to know. I suppose the world will have to depend of the IAEA or whatever that subset is of the sterling bastion of dependability that is the U.N.
Come on Jim. We detected non-existent weapons easily enough. Real ones should be a doddle, shouldn't they?Jimbeaux said:
No, they are a surrounded, threatened, and cautious bunch.
And as Israel have nukes, and refuse to sign up to the NPT then in the usual arms race way of things others will attempt to equalize the situation. I'd rather WWIII wasn't just under the control of what the Israelis do, I'm afraid. As usual, and it seems very silly of me to think so, but I value evidence above anything else. After the GWII, a government saying something no longer has the credit it may once have had. I remember Powell in the UN with pictures. I don't want that baloney to happen again.
drivin_me_nuts said:
Jimbeaux said:
Then they may just welcome having the current fools in charge run off. Better yet, if they value freedom as you say, why don't they do as others have and free themselves from the hatters that control them now? BTW, this: " Home and identity are powerful concepts to many Iranians"; that works that way here as well.
It's an interesting question and the answer is actually a complex one and involves family. Iran lost a million odd people in the Iran/Iraq war and many families lost a number of children. This is the generation now of the 40 somethings and older who had children after the war ended and even during the war to replace their lost ones.My wife and her friends who fought in the war, told me a sobering story about those who fought in the front lines, my wife included. There were the fanatics and then there were the 'normal' citizens, those conscripted to their 2 years military service who had no choice but go and fight. Like many soldiers throughout the world, they carry talismans , except those who fought for the regime, ran to their deaths with a plastic key around their necks... the key to heaven. Those who did not suffer that zealousness, carried alsorts of other things. Both groups of people died in their hundreds of thousands, but even then, there was the conflict between those that would happily run to their brutal deaths and those who did not run straight into a wall of machine gun fire; those who wanted to live.
And those that survived, my friends included, went on to have children of their own. As did those who lost their sons and daughters in the war. So, in Iran now there are many families of several generations, who carry the scars of lost children, lost brothers and sisters, in fact probably more families in Iran have lost a close relative to the war than not.
What would you do.... you're a family man who carries the scars of war and who remembers the brutality of one of the last mass murder 'old school' battlelines, fought with clubs and stones and god knows what else.. and you remember all of it. So when your child complains about the regime and wanting freedom, what would you say to them?
Iran took a beating in that war. All parts of the nation did. But now, the point of no return is being reached in Iran. And it's not to do with the regime changing, or becoming more tolerant, it's because those who remember the war, those who lived through it, are now older and dying off. As memory fades, as those who would protect their children and grand children now die off, the younger voice shouts more loudly for freedom, not really understanding the price they will pay.
But so do the voices of the Bazaaries and the Revolutionary guards, those well paid henchmen of the regime, who guard with fierce brutality their dogmameisters and pay masters. They have guns galore and no quams, not a seconds thought or regard for taking life. A 'real' uprising that threatened the regime would be put down with a brutality you can scant imagine. There would be mass executions and death on a huge scale. There are no guns to fight and the mullahs, these old men in robes have nothing to lose. They and their followers would fight to the death. What is the alternative? They go to heaven if they lose and heaven awaits them if they win.
Iran is such a complex society. It is not straight forward at all and the ebbs and flows of political life, coupled with the base level brutal iron fist make an uneasy mix. Society is changing, the voice of the young is rising. Many of those growing up now do voice the opinion of 'we'd rather die than live like this'... but there are still enough of those who remember what is like to survive when those friends around them were torn apart by bombs, keep them in check. For now.
The old political dogma of America the 'Great Satan' and the beliefs of behind the gung-ho grunt there is a cunning Englishman pulling the strings, is fading. For many years the regime used that fear of infiltration, foreign intervention and string pulling as a means to keep people under control. But great swathes of society no longer believe it. This is dying off and what you see at the 'down down USA..' type shows, the renta-mob of the mainly real religious diehards, shipped in from Quom and other religious cities.
But the complex mix in all of this is the volatility of youth and the fact that if ever there was an invasion of Iran by western forces, notions of being 'Persian', descendents of Darius and Xerxes will come in to play and those that would stand against the regime today, would stand with them to defend their nation.
Time, it's all about timing. The regime are adapting to a younger population. They know they need to give them more space and flexibility than those say even 10 years ago. But they still rule with an iron fist and they won't think twice of bringing it down hard on those who would depose them.
Of course home and identity are true in the US as well. Personally I would hate to see a conflict between these two nations. As some have already said, in this part of the world, in so many ways the ties and bonds between the two nations are stronger than the differences. Iranians are a very proud and independent people. They take huge pride in their national identity, history, education and abilities. As a nation of peoples, they have been hijacked by a religious few and in part that was down to the screwups of a few select western nations.... We all pay the price for it and that part of the world should be more stable than it currently is. It's a profound shame that it is not.
All we can do is sit and watch and see what happens next. A premptive strike on Iran by the US or Israel would be catastrophic for the region and the rest of the world. It would unleash the worst excesses of the regime, both at home and abroad. Time... this comes done to time, timing and the clamour of the voice for change from within.
However, I ask you again, what is the solution? You seem to indicate that waiting is the answer; waiting for the climate to evolve.drivin_me_nuts said:
As a nation of peoples, they have been hijacked by a religious few and in part that was down to the screwups of a few select western nations.... We all pay the price for it and that part of the world should be more stable than it currently is. It's a profound shame that it is not.
my neighbour was Iranian, a lovely, gentle bloke said exactly this, his country had been destroyed by religiondrivin_me_nuts said:
All we can do is sit and watch and see what happens next. A premptive strike on Iran by the US or Israel would be catastrophic for the region and the rest of the world. It would unleash the worst excesses of the regime, both at home and abroad. Time... this comes done to time, timing and the clamour of the voice for change from within.
It would be an absolute calamity of biblical proportions.....and pretty unlikely I'd have thought. Iran needs to change in its own time from withinJimbeaux said:
Very well thought out and stated. However, I ask you again, what is the solution? You seem to indicate that waiting is the answer; waiting for the climate to evolve.
The 'regime change' part of Iran needs to be well and truly left alone. Don't mess with that powder-keg. However, I ask you again, what is the solution? You seem to indicate that waiting is the answer; waiting for the climate to evolve.The attitudes and actions of the gvt. Different story. Censure, restrictions, equal and opposite reactions.. All those things that go on behind the scenes... that are still going on as we speak. The regime says something in public and behaves a different way behind closed doors...
For now, perhaps those backroom interactions are what is keeping the waters relatively calm.
I wish I knew the answer to this. I have more than enough selfish reasons to want to be able to hop on a plane to travel to a different kind of Iran....
I wish I knew what the future held. I have family there and this is all very real for me.
Jimbeaux said:
Apache said:
I think the time thing might be the best way, these evil old Mullahs are all very old now and their time is coming to an end
You don't think they have "successors"?
kwits succeeds them.....it'll take time but there is no other way short of a bloodbathApache said:
Jimbeaux said:
Apache said:
I think the time thing might be the best way, these evil old Mullahs are all very old now and their time is coming to an end
You don't think they have "successors"?kwits succeeds them.....it'll take time but there is no other way short of a bloodbathGassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff