Is the UK tax system day light robbery
Discussion
GavinPearson said:
oyster said:
The biggest lack of transparency is the tin hat on your head.
If I remember rightly, you're an expat? Pray tell me, how open is the government of the country you live in compared to the UK?
Where I live the government is very open about their accounting at every level from my local town through to national level. They have their problems, and there is very divided opinion about how to fund government, but the tax level is far lower than it would be in the UK.If I remember rightly, you're an expat? Pray tell me, how open is the government of the country you live in compared to the UK?
While some people might say that the UK is an absolute bargain in tax terms, if they were to compare the level of tax they would pay in the UK with their counterpart in the USA for example, they would find that the same money earned would be taxed at a far lower rate in the USA.
As a guide, somebody earning US$80K would be paying about $20K in all for taxes and in a number of states their kids would get free University education.
So for the GBP 50K earner paying 17K in taxes they ought to be paying more like 12K. And the 5K less that they are taxed could be used to do exactly what they want with it, which in many people's cases would mean spending it, further boosting the economy.
People forget that the USA was founded entirely on the basis of being completely fed up with being taxed to oblivion by the UK with insufficient service to show for it. Because Americans are taught their history from Kindergarten, they have the whole issue of tax drummed into them from an early age and by adulthood what they look for is value from their tax dollars. For the majority of people whether on the left or right, they want to know that they are not being overtaxed and that there's no waste in the system. This tends to be a bigger issue at a local and state level than at a national level, but people vote on tax increases and often knock politicians' proposals down on the basis that they cost too much. That simply doesn't happen in the UK as far as I can see.
The USA was founded over 200 years ago. There were almost no government services back then in the UK. I'd love to see your evidence for that statement.
oyster said:
And how do tax levels compare when you add on health insurance and pension insurance to the US figures?
The USA was founded over 200 years ago. There were almost no government services back then in the UK. I'd love to see your evidence for that statement.
That includes a state pension equivalent, medical coverage for the poor and for the retired.The USA was founded over 200 years ago. There were almost no government services back then in the UK. I'd love to see your evidence for that statement.
In the US, medical coverage has historically been an employer paid benefit where the level of service puts BUPA to shame.
GavinPearson said:
While some people might say that the UK is an absolute bargain in tax terms, if they were to compare the level of tax they would pay in the UK with their counterpart in the USA for example, they would find that the same money earned would be taxed at a far lower rate in the USA.
depends which state you live in. i worked in new york for 5 years and found the tax almost the same as the uk. 35% federal, 9% state, 4% city, +AMT, on top of that of course is your own healthcare and medicare tax and social security tax and home owners can expect property taxes anywhere between 1k to 10k a month!!! oh and college fees leaving grads in 6 figures of debt. ugh i think its a myth of low tax in the usfbrs said:
GavinPearson said:
While some people might say that the UK is an absolute bargain in tax terms, if they were to compare the level of tax they would pay in the UK with their counterpart in the USA for example, they would find that the same money earned would be taxed at a far lower rate in the USA.
depends which state you live in. i worked in new york for 5 years and found the tax almost the same as the uk. 35% federal, 9% state, 4% city, +AMT, on top of that of course is your own healthcare and medicare tax and social security tax and home owners can expect property taxes anywhere between 1k to 10k a month!!! oh and college fees leaving grads in 6 figures of debt. ugh i think its a myth of low tax in the usGavinPearson said:
oyster said:
And how do tax levels compare when you add on health insurance and pension insurance to the US figures?
The USA was founded over 200 years ago. There were almost no government services back then in the UK. I'd love to see your evidence for that statement.
That includes a state pension equivalent, medical coverage for the poor and for the retired.The USA was founded over 200 years ago. There were almost no government services back then in the UK. I'd love to see your evidence for that statement.
In the US, medical coverage has historically been an employer paid benefit where the level of service puts BUPA to shame.
oyster said:
So who is right?
depends where you live and how much you earn. us taxes are insanely complicated but in short if you earn under 100k you can deduct so many things from your taxable income that most people get 5 figure tax rebates at the end of the year, over half of us tax payers pay no federal income tax!. once you earn over some amount i forget you pay alternative minimum tax which effectively eliminates deductions so you end up paying the full federal amount. now gone up too.i forgot to add another shocker for ph'ers is sales tax which, whilst lower than uk vat, is also payable on things like used cars... but again some states have no sales tax
fbrs said:
whilst lower than uk vat, is also payable on things like used cars... but again some states have no sales tax
Yep, Have to pay 6.5% on used cars when I register them in MA. Makes jumping between cars a pain when you have to factor in that cost. Tax is less here but the red tape is defiantly more.fbrs said:
depends where you live and how much you earn. us taxes are insanely complicated but in short if you earn under 100k you can deduct so many things from your taxable income that most people get 5 figure tax rebates at the end of the year, over half of us tax payers pay no federal income tax!. once you earn over some amount i forget you pay alternative minimum tax which effectively eliminates deductions so you end up paying the full federal amount. now gone up too.
i forgot to add another shocker for ph'ers is sales tax which, whilst lower than uk vat, is also payable on things like used cars... but again some states have no sales tax
US$100K is roughly GBP60K (it varies, but this is a reasonable conversion rate), as fbrs says the tax somebody earning this level of money in the US would pay little federal income tax, they still pay FICA & Medicare, then State tax & Property tax. i forgot to add another shocker for ph'ers is sales tax which, whilst lower than uk vat, is also payable on things like used cars... but again some states have no sales tax
If you are powerfully built and successful earning noticeably more than US$100K then you pay probably the same amount of income tax as you might in the UK. Live in a more liberal state and the state taxes will be higher, but many states have no taxes. And then property taxes vary according to where you live - but the beauty of the US system is you get a choice. You can look for work in a low tax area, or you can look for work in a high tax area. You can choose where you live based on the property tax depending on how much you value the services those councils offer. For many people property tax will be similar to what they would pay in the UK as rates.
Our GBP60K earner in comparison would pay way more income tax, as previously stated.
My conclusion is that those who work for a living are far better off in the USA than the UK based on tax alone, add in the fact that property can be cheaper and that many goods are cheaper and you have a far higher standard of living. There seems to be no good reason as to why people in the UK can't have the same standard of living aside from the fact that British government seems to spend their tax revenues far less efficiently.
Countdown said:
El Guapo said:
JREwing said:
The situation here really is no worse than most developed countries, and better than most less developed countries.
If anything, compared to most of Europe (particularly north west) we pay remarkably little.
Not sure if serious.If anything, compared to most of Europe (particularly north west) we pay remarkably little.
Income tax, NI, council tax, road tax, VAT, fuel duty, TV licence, insurance premium tax, airline ticket tax etc etc, the list is extensive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...
My main issue is with the complexity of the UK tax code, not the percentage rates. I'm a big fan of the flat tax regimes adopted by some of the Baltic states. No messing about, no separate rates for people above a certain age, no tax credits for random "green" fads, just a simple flat percentage rate.
excel monkey said:
I was going to post a link to that wikipedia page. Comparing the UK to most of Western Europe (not the tiny tax haven states) we do OK in this country.
My main issue is with the complexity of the UK tax code, not the percentage rates. I'm a big fan of the flat tax regimes adopted by some of the Baltic states. No messing about, no separate rates for people above a certain age, no tax credits for random "green" fads, just a simple flat percentage rate.
If they done that in UK I'd consider living there again. Instead i pay tax, hire local workers, and spend all my disposable income elsewhere.My main issue is with the complexity of the UK tax code, not the percentage rates. I'm a big fan of the flat tax regimes adopted by some of the Baltic states. No messing about, no separate rates for people above a certain age, no tax credits for random "green" fads, just a simple flat percentage rate.
Godfrey Bloom's suggestions a few minutes into this video on the tax system seems sensible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BLdAO66vIs
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