Northern Ireland
Discussion
ArmaghMan said:
The deal is doomed.
A border "of any type" in the Irish Sea was unacceptable. They have to be as British as Scotland.
Unfortunately a huge swathe of DUP voters cannot grasp that N.I is different from the rest of the UK.
This is the bit that gets me. Northern Irish born and raised, but I've lived in Scotland since 2000. A border "of any type" in the Irish Sea was unacceptable. They have to be as British as Scotland.
Unfortunately a huge swathe of DUP voters cannot grasp that N.I is different from the rest of the UK.
Why should NI be treated any differently to Scotland, England or Wales? It's a Sovereign part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Okay, it shares a land border with "The EU" under the guise of the Irish Free State, but why should the United Kingdom endure internal borders between it's constituent parts merely to appease the European Union demands? This is madness in my mind. Any border should be between the United Kingdom as a complete entity and the European Union, in whatever form that may present itself. Why should trade between GB and NI be subject to separate terms, simply to appease the EU and Eire?
Roderick Spode said:
ArmaghMan said:
The deal is doomed.
A border "of any type" in the Irish Sea was unacceptable. They have to be as British as Scotland.
Unfortunately a huge swathe of DUP voters cannot grasp that N.I is different from the rest of the UK.
This is the bit that gets me. Northern Irish born and raised, but I've lived in Scotland since 2000. A border "of any type" in the Irish Sea was unacceptable. They have to be as British as Scotland.
Unfortunately a huge swathe of DUP voters cannot grasp that N.I is different from the rest of the UK.
Why should NI be treated any differently to Scotland, England or Wales? It's a Sovereign part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Okay, it shares a land border with "The EU" under the guise of the Irish Free State, but why should the United Kingdom endure internal borders between it's constituent parts merely to appease the European Union demands? This is madness in my mind. Any border should be between the United Kingdom as a complete entity and the European Union, in whatever form that may present itself. Why should trade between GB and NI be subject to separate terms, simply to appease the EU and Eire?
Brexit has changed the optics of the GFA. Its as simple as that. Once Brexit landed, it was down to politicians to find a way through, and here we are.
ArmaghMan said:
The deal is doomed.
Rishi and Ursula gave it a good go but I fear to no avail.
Listening to a vox pop on BBC radio ulster from an Orange Hall and they could not accept the deal.
A border "of any type" in the Irish Sea was unacceptable. They have to be as British as Scotland.
I can't see the DUP accepting the deal if their base don't accept it. Electoral suicide. Unfortunately a huge swathe of DUP voters cannot grasp that N.I is different from the rest of the UK. Like it or not NI is part of the island of Ireland and a sizeable number of NI residents do not consider themselves British.
The DUP and its voters will have to come to terms with that and what it means for them and Northern Ireland.
Difficult times ahead.
It's almost like the Irish Sea has only existed for the last 100 years. NI has always been separate from GB. They should have thought about that back in 1921. Rishi and Ursula gave it a good go but I fear to no avail.
Listening to a vox pop on BBC radio ulster from an Orange Hall and they could not accept the deal.
A border "of any type" in the Irish Sea was unacceptable. They have to be as British as Scotland.
I can't see the DUP accepting the deal if their base don't accept it. Electoral suicide. Unfortunately a huge swathe of DUP voters cannot grasp that N.I is different from the rest of the UK. Like it or not NI is part of the island of Ireland and a sizeable number of NI residents do not consider themselves British.
The DUP and its voters will have to come to terms with that and what it means for them and Northern Ireland.
Difficult times ahead.
Looks like a new GFA is needed or at least revised provisions.
ArmaghMan said:
The deal is doomed.
Rishi and Ursula gave it a good go but I fear to no avail.
Listening to a vox pop on BBC radio ulster from an Orange Hall and they could not accept the deal.
A border "of any type" in the Irish Sea was unacceptable. They have to be as British as Scotland.
I can't see the DUP accepting the deal if their base don't accept it. Electoral suicide. Unfortunately a huge swathe of DUP voters cannot grasp that N.I is different from the rest of the UK. Like it or not NI is part of the island of Ireland and a sizeable number of NI residents do not consider themselves British.
The DUP and its voters will have to come to terms with that and what it means for them and Northern Ireland.
Difficult times ahead.
DUP are between a rock and a hard place now.Rishi and Ursula gave it a good go but I fear to no avail.
Listening to a vox pop on BBC radio ulster from an Orange Hall and they could not accept the deal.
A border "of any type" in the Irish Sea was unacceptable. They have to be as British as Scotland.
I can't see the DUP accepting the deal if their base don't accept it. Electoral suicide. Unfortunately a huge swathe of DUP voters cannot grasp that N.I is different from the rest of the UK. Like it or not NI is part of the island of Ireland and a sizeable number of NI residents do not consider themselves British.
The DUP and its voters will have to come to terms with that and what it means for them and Northern Ireland.
Difficult times ahead.
You mention their 'base'
Their 'base' isn't a single entity of joined up thinking. It spans from hardline Unionism right through to moderate unionism. They now have to figure out how to ride 2 horses at the same time. Moderate unionism won't tolerate much more 'hardline' unionism and hardline unionism won't accept 'moderate' unionism.
What do they do next?
If they had any wit or strategy, they would leverage NI's unique position between EU and GB to drive economic prosperity. Get behind the Windsor protocol and push the Tory Govt on levelling up, investing and supporting NI's unique position for growth.
Thats their best hope of avoiding a United Ireland and thats at the very core of their mission. Thats got to be the long term strategy for NI unionism. Its like having an open net from 5 yards out.,,,but I would place a sizeable bet that they stop and complain that the net isn't wide enough.
nicanary said:
It's almost like the Irish Sea has only existed for the last 100 years. NI has always been separate from GB. They should have thought about that back in 1921.
Considered Brexit back in 1921? Sure.Anyway, Eire has been an economic basket case from 1921 to present, until the EU took pity and rescued it. Most of my childhood in the 1980s and 90s Eire was the poor man of Europe, until the Tiger economy came along in the late 2000s. Then the prosperity of the South threatened the nordies, and equivocality was demanded.
Roderick Spode said:
ArmaghMan said:
The deal is doomed.
A border "of any type" in the Irish Sea was unacceptable. They have to be as British as Scotland.
Unfortunately a huge swathe of DUP voters cannot grasp that N.I is different from the rest of the UK.
This is the bit that gets me. Northern Irish born and raised, but I've lived in Scotland since 2000. A border "of any type" in the Irish Sea was unacceptable. They have to be as British as Scotland.
Unfortunately a huge swathe of DUP voters cannot grasp that N.I is different from the rest of the UK.
Why should NI be treated any differently to Scotland, England or Wales? It's a Sovereign part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Okay, it shares a land border with "The EU" under the guise of the Irish Free State, but why should the United Kingdom endure internal borders between it's constituent parts merely to appease the European Union demands? This is madness in my mind. Any border should be between the United Kingdom as a complete entity and the European Union, in whatever form that may present itself. Why should trade between GB and NI be subject to separate terms, simply to appease the EU and Eire?
Perfectly legitimate view.
Why should it be treated differently?
Because many people here do not consider themselves British
Why should the UK endure ( your word) internal borders...why should Irish nationalists endure a border on the island of Ireland would be the obvious retort.
It's not to appease the EU, it's to make sure there is no hard border on the island.
That is the nub of the problem. Wherever the border is a huge proportion of the population of NI will not accept it.
soupdragon1 said:
Long story short, the good Friday agreement was made with everyone within the EU. There was no provision for Brexit.
Brexit has changed the optics of the GFA. Its as simple as that. Once Brexit landed, it was down to politicians to find a way through, and here we are.
I recall being told this many times during the referendum campaign, and leading Brexiteers telling us it was part of Project Fear. Brexit has changed the optics of the GFA. Its as simple as that. Once Brexit landed, it was down to politicians to find a way through, and here we are.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
soupdragon1 said:
Long story short, the good Friday agreement was made with everyone within the EU. There was no provision for Brexit.
Brexit has changed the optics of the GFA. Its as simple as that. Once Brexit landed, it was down to politicians to find a way through, and here we are.
I recall being told this many times during the referendum campaign, and leading Brexiteers telling us it was part of Project Fear. Brexit has changed the optics of the GFA. Its as simple as that. Once Brexit landed, it was down to politicians to find a way through, and here we are.
Roderick Spode said:
Considered Brexit back in 1921? Sure.
Anyway, Eire has been an economic basket case from 1921 to present, until the EU took pity and rescued it. Most of my childhood in the 1980s and 90s Eire was the poor man of Europe, until the Tiger economy came along in the late 2000s. Then the prosperity of the South threatened the nordies, and equivocality was demanded.
Overly simplistic review of the history of the Irish economy since 1921 I would suggest. It was indeed a basket case for a very long time. However, it's gradual emergence as a decent place to live started in the 1960s with fairly far sighted government policies. Yes, joining the EEC definitely helped but also some very clever government schemes and competitive tax rates (often counter to EU policy) have also helped. Ireland is in a much better place today than it was and is becoming a more attractive place to do business in. Aside from that, the general social climate in Ireland is a world away from what it was even 30 years ago.Anyway, Eire has been an economic basket case from 1921 to present, until the EU took pity and rescued it. Most of my childhood in the 1980s and 90s Eire was the poor man of Europe, until the Tiger economy came along in the late 2000s. Then the prosperity of the South threatened the nordies, and equivocality was demanded.
As Ireland becomes more liberal and prosperous, at some point the citizens of NI might very well realise that it might be a better place to be rather than hitched to a fast fading and chaotic UK.
soupdragon1 said:
John Major and Tony Blair joined up to articulate the risk. Seemed nobody wanted to listen.
To be fair to both of them, it was one of their best contributions to society as PMs. Much of the ground work was done under Major; Blair pushed it over the line?I grew up in the 80s and 90s with the various bombings; my dad was in Birmingham during the pub bombings. GFA was a great thing (in my view)
Eric Mc said:
Overly simplistic review of the history of the Irish economy since 1921 I would suggest. It was indeed a basket case for a very long time. However, it's gradual emergence as a decent place to live started in the 1960s with fairly far sighted government policies. Yes, joining the EEC definitely helped but also some very clever government schemes and competitive tax rates (often counter to EU policy) have also helped. Ireland is in a much better place today than it was and is becoming a more attractive place to do business in. Aside from that, the general social climate in Ireland is a world away from what it was even 30 years ago.
As Ireland becomes more liberal and prosperous, at some point the citizens of NI might very well realise that it might be a better place to be rather than hitched to a fast fading and chaotic UK.
Exchange Ireland for the rest of the world and UK for EU and you have the brexit argument in a nutshell...As Ireland becomes more liberal and prosperous, at some point the citizens of NI might very well realise that it might be a better place to be rather than hitched to a fast fading and chaotic UK.
JuniorD said:
If the DUP were in a restaurant, just about to get served a lovely baked Alaska, and they looked over and noticed that over on the mainland UK's table guests were getting served fly-blown s
t pie, they'd demand to have what they're having ffs.
That's my view of their attitude too. If the UK ship is sinking, they are determined to go down with that ship rather than make use of any available lifeboats.t pie, they'd demand to have what they're having ffs. Eric Mc said:
JuniorD said:
If the DUP were in a restaurant, just about to get served a lovely baked Alaska, and they looked over and noticed that over on the mainland UK's table guests were getting served fly-blown st pie, they'd demand to have what they're having ffs.
That's my view of their attitude too. If the UK ship is sinking, they are determined to go down with that ship rather than make use of any available lifeboats.t pie, they'd demand to have what they're having ffs. 
And the reason is that they can't countenance the thought of a decent, harmonious, and prosperous society in NI as their whole existence relies on division, misplaced fear, and disharmony. The DUP bringing about a better situation for all in NI would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.
Interesting to hear Jim Allister from the TUV talking about the Windsor agreement being simply not good enough, living under EU law etc.
No surprise at that of course, but people within the DUP will be well aware of what a vote influence that can be and as I mentioned on the thread yesterday, DUP are trying to ride 2 horses - hardline unionism and moderate unionism.
Jim Allister is already setting his stall out to gather up some of those hardline votes and should the DUP give the seal of approval to the Windsor agreement, he knows full well his party will collect a chunk of votes from the DUP.
DUP need all the votes they can get, but if they side with Jim Allister viewpoint, then they are risking the votes of the moderate unionist as basically, it means no more Stormont for quite some time, if ever....and that won't go down well with many people.
So they are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Jamie Donaldson I think wants to agree to the Windsor agreement, as he's probably the most intelligent out of the senior figures and understands that its the right thing to do long term. But how much support can he get?
No surprise at that of course, but people within the DUP will be well aware of what a vote influence that can be and as I mentioned on the thread yesterday, DUP are trying to ride 2 horses - hardline unionism and moderate unionism.
Jim Allister is already setting his stall out to gather up some of those hardline votes and should the DUP give the seal of approval to the Windsor agreement, he knows full well his party will collect a chunk of votes from the DUP.
DUP need all the votes they can get, but if they side with Jim Allister viewpoint, then they are risking the votes of the moderate unionist as basically, it means no more Stormont for quite some time, if ever....and that won't go down well with many people.
So they are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Jamie Donaldson I think wants to agree to the Windsor agreement, as he's probably the most intelligent out of the senior figures and understands that its the right thing to do long term. But how much support can he get?
Deep Thought said:
At some point the DUP are going to have to accept that a big wall between us and the republic isnt going to happen, therefore there is going to have to be some element of compromise. There could well be very strong financial advantages for NI coming out of all this but they seem more willing to see NI burn than let "them uns" get what they perceive as an advantage.
Plays to their portion of the electorate. Suffice it to say a large proportion of the DUP's core vote isn't the hard working, entrepreneurial, ambitious and go-getting type that would take real advantage of consistent, stable and sound governance and the benefits that would bring.iphonedyou said:
Deep Thought said:
At some point the DUP are going to have to accept that a big wall between us and the republic isnt going to happen, therefore there is going to have to be some element of compromise. There could well be very strong financial advantages for NI coming out of all this but they seem more willing to see NI burn than let "them uns" get what they perceive as an advantage.
Plays to their portion of the electorate. Suffice it to say a large proportion of the DUP's core vote isn't the hard working, entrepreneurial, ambitious and go-getting type that would take real advantage of consistent, stable and sound governance and the benefits that would bring.Allow the rest of us enjoy a vibrant, prosperous and prima facie peaceful country, while they are appeased with the concession of being free to indulge in all those things that they hold most dear - i.e. marching, racketeering, intimidating, drug-pushing, bonfire building, fleg-waving, Ulster-Scots speaking...
vaud said:
soupdragon1 said:
John Major and Tony Blair joined up to articulate the risk. Seemed nobody wanted to listen.
To be fair to both of them, it was one of their best contributions to society as PMs. Much of the ground work was done under Major; Blair pushed it over the line?I grew up in the 80s and 90s with the various bombings; my dad was in Birmingham during the pub bombings. GFA was a great thing (in my view)
Roderick Spode said:
This is the bit that gets me. Northern Irish born and raised, but I've lived in Scotland since 2000.
Why should NI be treated any differently to Scotland, England or Wales? It's a Sovereign part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Okay, it shares a land border with "The EU" under the guise of the Irish Free State, but why should the United Kingdom endure internal borders between it's constituent parts merely to appease the European Union demands? This is madness in my mind. Any border should be between the United Kingdom as a complete entity and the European Union, in whatever form that may present itself. Why should trade between GB and NI be subject to separate terms, simply to appease the EU and Eire?
I agree with you and have never understood why the EU couldn't just undertake any custom checks in the ROI (i.e. on the ROI side of the NI/ROI border). That would still protect the integrity of their single market (which is supposedly their concern) whilst also avoiding either a hard border on the island of Ireland or any disruption of trade between NI and the rest of the UK. Why should NI be treated any differently to Scotland, England or Wales? It's a Sovereign part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Okay, it shares a land border with "The EU" under the guise of the Irish Free State, but why should the United Kingdom endure internal borders between it's constituent parts merely to appease the European Union demands? This is madness in my mind. Any border should be between the United Kingdom as a complete entity and the European Union, in whatever form that may present itself. Why should trade between GB and NI be subject to separate terms, simply to appease the EU and Eire?
Protecting the EU single market doesn't mean custom checks for goods moving to the EU via NI have to be done in NI and (IMHO) it's something the UK government should never have agreed to.
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