Northern Ireland

[slow_poke]

JNW1 said:

Roderick Spode said:

This is the bit that gets me. Northern Irish born and raised, but I've lived in Scotland since 2000.

Why should NI be treated any differently to Scotland, England or Wales? It's a Sovereign part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Okay, it shares a land border with "The EU" under the guise of the Irish Free State, but why should the United Kingdom endure internal borders between it's constituent parts merely to appease the European Union demands? This is madness in my mind. Any border should be between the United Kingdom as a complete entity and the European Union, in whatever form that may present itself. Why should trade between GB and NI be subject to separate terms, simply to appease the EU and Eire?

I agree with you and have never understood why the EU couldn't just undertake any custom checks in the ROI (i.e. on the ROI side of the NI/ROI border). That would still protect the integrity of their single market (which is supposedly their concern) whilst also avoiding either a hard border on the island of Ireland or any disruption of trade between NI and the rest of the UK.

Protecting the EU single market doesn't mean custom checks for goods moving to the EU via NI have to be done in NI and (IMHO) it's something the UK government should never have agreed to.

Nah. It's the UK's Brexit, it's incumbent on the UK to make it work. It's also incumbent on the UK not to ps off the nearest, largest trading bloc, not if they want good trading deals going forward.

Can't have our cake and eat it, can we? Frankly, the whole NI thing is just a pothole on the road to Brexit success and should be treated as such. Fill it in before it details the Brexit project.

[iphonedyou]

slow_poke said:

Nah. It's the UK's Brexit, it's incumbent on the UK to make it work. It's also incumbent on the UK not to ps off the nearest, largest trading bloc, not if they want good trading deals going forward.

Can't have our cake and eat it, can we? Frankly, the whole NI thing is just a pothole on the road to Brexit success and should be treated as such. Fill it in before it details the Brexit project.

Agree with the first paragraph.

Second almost had me... almost!

[JNW1]

slow_poke said:

JNW1 said:

Roderick Spode said:

This is the bit that gets me. Northern Irish born and raised, but I've lived in Scotland since 2000.

Why should NI be treated any differently to Scotland, England or Wales? It's a Sovereign part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Okay, it shares a land border with "The EU" under the guise of the Irish Free State, but why should the United Kingdom endure internal borders between it's constituent parts merely to appease the European Union demands? This is madness in my mind. Any border should be between the United Kingdom as a complete entity and the European Union, in whatever form that may present itself. Why should trade between GB and NI be subject to separate terms, simply to appease the EU and Eire?

I agree with you and have never understood why the EU couldn't just undertake any custom checks in the ROI (i.e. on the ROI side of the NI/ROI border). That would still protect the integrity of their single market (which is supposedly their concern) whilst also avoiding either a hard border on the island of Ireland or any disruption of trade between NI and the rest of the UK.

Protecting the EU single market doesn't mean custom checks for goods moving to the EU via NI have to be done in NI and (IMHO) it's something the UK government should never have agreed to.

Nah. It's the UK's Brexit, it's incumbent on the UK to make it work. It's also incumbent on the UK not to ps off the nearest, largest trading bloc, not if they want good trading deals going forward.

Can't have our cake and eat it, can we? Frankly, the whole NI thing is just a pothole on the road to Brexit success and should be treated as such. Fill it in before it details the Brexit project.

Appreciate your post's a bit tongue in cheek but it's the EU's single market and to ensure its integrity they've presumably been content to put checks in place on their own territory for goods arriving from parts of the UK other than NI. So on the island of Ireland they just need to do those checks in the ROI (to avoid a hard border with NI) and then it's surely job done as far as protecting their single market's concerned?

[Mortarboard]

The single island economy (mainly centered around agri) was in place already when both were in the EU.

M.

[JNW1]

Mortarboard said:

The single island economy (mainly centered around agri) was in place already when both were in the EU.

M.

I get that but how much moves to the mainland EU and could thereby potentially compromise the integrity of their single market to a significant extent? And if the quantity is significant why couldn't checks be carried out at ports in the ROI if it was felt compliance of the goods with EU standards was likely to be a problem?

[Mortarboard]

JNW1 said:

I get that but how much moves to the mainland EU and could thereby potentially compromise the integrity of their single market to a significant extent? And if the quantity is significant why couldn't checks be carried out at ports in the ROI if it was felt compliance of the goods with EU standards was likely to be a problem?

Because the "threat" doesn't come from within the island of Ireland. You're looking for all NI imports to be routed through ROI with that solution.
It's the only practical solution, as unpalatable politically it may be to some.

M.

[Abdul Abulbul Amir]

JNW1 said:

Appreciate your post's a bit tongue in cheek but it's the EU's single market and to ensure its integrity they've presumably been content to put checks in place on their own territory for goods arriving from parts of the UK other than NI. So on the island of Ireland they just need to do those checks in the ROI (to avoid a hard border with NI) and then it's surely job done as far as protecting their single market's concerned?

Agreed. The agreement should be symmetrical.

Any checks between GB and NI should be mirrored by checks between ROI and the rest of the EU/ROW. The UK single market should be respected as much as the EU sm.

[Abdul Abulbul Amir]

soupdragon1 said:

John Major and Tony Blair joined up to articulate the risk. Seemed nobody wanted to listen.

So let the guys with the semtex dictate the will of the population?

I've found that a useful barometer is that whatever Blair says the opposite is the best answer.

[Eric Mc]

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

So let the guys with the semtex dictate the will of the population?

Sadly, they are always there in the background and will never entirely disappear. Whether we like it or not, it's a constant and has to be considered.

Just witness what happened last week.

[soupdragon1]

JNW1 said:

Roderick Spode said:

This is the bit that gets me. Northern Irish born and raised, but I've lived in Scotland since 2000.

Why should NI be treated any differently to Scotland, England or Wales? It's a Sovereign part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Okay, it shares a land border with "The EU" under the guise of the Irish Free State, but why should the United Kingdom endure internal borders between it's constituent parts merely to appease the European Union demands? This is madness in my mind. Any border should be between the United Kingdom as a complete entity and the European Union, in whatever form that may present itself. Why should trade between GB and NI be subject to separate terms, simply to appease the EU and Eire?

I agree with you and have never understood why the EU couldn't just undertake any custom checks in the ROI (i.e. on the ROI side of the NI/ROI border). That would still protect the integrity of their single market (which is supposedly their concern) whilst also avoiding either a hard border on the island of Ireland or any disruption of trade between NI and the rest of the UK.

Protecting the EU single market doesn't mean custom checks for goods moving to the EU via NI have to be done in NI and (IMHO) it's something the UK government should never have agreed to.

Take politics out of this for a minute.

You have a border with 3 crossing points and a border with 300 crossing points. Where would you put the border?

Its just more practical for both UK and EU to choose the 3 crossing point options. I mean, you always had to stop anyway at the sea anyway, whether you like it or not so it makes absolute sense to put it there.

Now add the politics back in and its a more complex discussion of course.

[Eric Mc]

300?

More like 3,000.

[soupdragon1]

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

soupdragon1 said:

John Major and Tony Blair joined up to articulate the risk. Seemed nobody wanted to listen.

So let the guys with the semtex dictate the will of the population?

I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion, but its not correct.

The context of the 'risk' word in reference to Blair and Major was primarily due to upsetting the balance of the hard gained peace in NI which then leads to unknown consequences. Eg, the end of the Union/public disorder/return to violence. Ie, the word risk relates to 'unknown consequences'

The crux of the message was that Brexit and the NI status quo were incompatible with each other.

[JNW1]

Mortarboard said:

JNW1 said:

I get that but how much moves to the mainland EU and could thereby potentially compromise the integrity of their single market to a significant extent? And if the quantity is significant why couldn't checks be carried out at ports in the ROI if it was felt compliance of the goods with EU standards was likely to be a problem?

Because the "threat" doesn't come from within the island of Ireland. You're looking for all NI imports to be routed through ROI with that solution.
It's the only practical solution, as unpalatable politically it may be to some.

M.

I thought the concern with the island of Ireland is an open border with NI could be a backdoor into the single market which could potentially undermine its integrity? That being the case all I'm saying is checks in the ROI could solve that by preventing non-compliant goods getting to the rest of the EU.

The "threat" coming from the rest of the UK is covered already by border checks in the EU countries receiving goods direct from the mainland UK.

[Abdul Abulbul Amir]

soupdragon1 said:

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

soupdragon1 said:

John Major and Tony Blair joined up to articulate the risk. Seemed nobody wanted to listen.

So let the guys with the semtex dictate the will of the population?

I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion, but its not correct.

The context of the 'risk' word in reference to Blair and Major was primarily due to upsetting the balance of the hard gained peace in NI which then leads to unknown consequences. Eg, the end of the Union/public disorder/return to violence. Ie, the word risk relates to 'unknown consequences'

The crux of the message was that Brexit and the NI status quo were incompatible with each other.

You've answered it in your own reply.

[soupdragon1]

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

soupdragon1 said:

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

soupdragon1 said:

John Major and Tony Blair joined up to articulate the risk. Seemed nobody wanted to listen.

So let the guys with the semtex dictate the will of the population?

I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion, but its not correct.

The context of the 'risk' word in reference to Blair and Major was primarily due to upsetting the balance of the hard gained peace in NI which then leads to unknown consequences. Eg, the end of the Union/public disorder/return to violence. Ie, the word risk relates to 'unknown consequences'

The crux of the message was that Brexit and the NI status quo were incompatible with each other.

You've answered it in your own reply.

Well that's quite the leap but, yeah, ok then.

[Abdul Abulbul Amir]

soupdragon1 said:

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

soupdragon1 said:

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

soupdragon1 said:

John Major and Tony Blair joined up to articulate the risk. Seemed nobody wanted to listen.

So let the guys with the semtex dictate the will of the population?

I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion, but its not correct.

The context of the 'risk' word in reference to Blair and Major was primarily due to upsetting the balance of the hard gained peace in NI which then leads to unknown consequences. Eg, the end of the Union/public disorder/return to violence. Ie, the word risk relates to 'unknown consequences'

The crux of the message was that Brexit and the NI status quo were incompatible with each other.

You've answered it in your own reply.

Well that's quite the leap but, yeah, ok then.

Not really, you've stated that a return to violence is a consequence as some form of justification of a change in behaviour.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

JNW1 said:

Roderick Spode said:

This is the bit that gets me. Northern Irish born and raised, but I've lived in Scotland since 2000.

Why should NI be treated any differently to Scotland, England or Wales? It's a Sovereign part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Okay, it shares a land border with "The EU" under the guise of the Irish Free State, but why should the United Kingdom endure internal borders between it's constituent parts merely to appease the European Union demands? This is madness in my mind. Any border should be between the United Kingdom as a complete entity and the European Union, in whatever form that may present itself. Why should trade between GB and NI be subject to separate terms, simply to appease the EU and Eire?

I agree with you and have never understood why the EU couldn't just undertake any custom checks in the ROI (i.e. on the ROI side of the NI/ROI border). That would still protect the integrity of their single market (which is supposedly their concern) whilst also avoiding either a hard border on the island of Ireland .

How does it avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland? How do you know on what to do customs checks on unless you're doing border checks. Someone has to be on the border asking vehicles to pull over in order to do the check. That's basically a hard border.

There are 208 road crossings between NI & ROI. Can you explain to me how this is going to work?

[Mortarboard]

JNW1 said:

I thought the concern with the island of Ireland is an open border with NI could be a backdoor into the single market which could potentially undermine its integrity? That being the case all I'm saying is checks in the ROI could solve that by preventing non-compliant goods getting to the rest of the EU.

The "threat" coming from the rest of the UK is covered already by border checks in the EU countries receiving goods direct from the mainland UK.

The bulk of risk is from/for agri stuff. The major f&m outbreak was a good example of that. The all island economy is well advanced and works pretty seamlessly.
There's the other goods too, of course.
But checks, even virtually, are easier while at sea.

M.

[Mortarboard]

Abdul Abulbul Amir said:

So let the guys with the semtex dictate the will of the population?

I've found that a useful barometer is that whatever Blair says the opposite is the best answer.

Doesn't explain the Tories meeting with the LCC. Who are dictating policy to the DUP by the back door at the moment.

M.

[JuniorD]

Isn't it quite amazing that Jamie Bryson has become a leading light in Unionist strategic thinking