80 years ago today - Britain Declares War on Germany

[Eric Mc]

Some countries were formally allied. Some, like the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Denmark and France, had surrendered to the Germans and therefore came under German control (or the Vichy French in the southern half of that country).

The Germans, by and large, did not dismantle the pre-existing civilian security apparatus of occupied countries. They generally put a German official in charge or a sympathetic native. Many of these countries had had fascist type parties of their own so recruiting somebody sympathetic to Nazi ideals did not prove too difficult. The most infamous of people like this would have been Vidkun Quisling, who led Norway under German occupation. He was executed as a traitor after the war.

The Germans actively recruited young men from most of the occupied countries and were able to get so many from certain countries that they were able to form entire Dutch/Norwegian/Danish etc divisions.

In the occupied countries, the civilian police continued more or less as before the war but, of course, now had to enforce legislation imposed by the Nazis - which included rounding up Jews and other "undesirables" as well as trying to stop the activities of any resistance movements.

I am sure if Britain had been invaded the situation would have been no different. Indeed, the one part of the British Isles that was occupied (the Channel Islands) did go through some similar events as happened on the European mainland.

[theplayingmantis]

i never knew they raised entire Dutch and Norwegian legions. Danish yes as they were a bit iffy before hand anyway allegiance wise.

There was an Indian Legion.

[Ayahuasca]

Zirconia said:

Ayahuasca said:

Interesting that only a few years after the horrendous slaughter and suffering of the Great War, the British people, far from being shattered, cowed or pacified by that experience, were prepared to do it all over again, and were prepared to stand up to the Germans when every other nation in Europe was either defeated or neutral.

Probably owe that to Churchill, Halifax wanted to get around the peace table.

Indeed, but there did not appear to be much public opposition to Churchill, or a very powerful anti-war sentiment. Just a sense of oh, well, let’s roll up our sleeves and do it all over again. Remarkable stoicism.

[Zirconia]

theplayingmantis said:

i don't understand the function of the blockships if they could be circumnavigated. wer they simply intended to make life awkward or to be impenetrable? how did they impact surface ship navigation? were they of a depth that surface ships could pass over but a submerged u boat not? (at least intended). or were they meant to block any traffic. if the former then a u-boat on the surface could get over them (assume there were shore defenses too though to watch for such things?

I am not familiar with the tactics. What I take away from this is the British were nat as adept as they thought they were dealing with U boats. Churchil had not long been there and assured it was safe (he was first sea lord at the time?). Apparently they started searching the skies for the bombers.

[DoubleD]

Ayahuasca said:

Zirconia said:

Ayahuasca said:

Interesting that only a few years after the horrendous slaughter and suffering of the Great War, the British people, far from being shattered, cowed or pacified by that experience, were prepared to do it all over again, and were prepared to stand up to the Germans when every other nation in Europe was either defeated or neutral.

Probably owe that to Churchill, Halifax wanted to get around the peace table.

Indeed, but there did not appear to be much public opposition to Churchill, or a very powerful anti-war sentiment. Just a sense of oh, well, let’s roll up our sleeves and do it all over again. Remarkable stoicism.

I imagine they didn't fancy the alternative option.

[Wacky Racer]

I was born in 1953 and grew up in the late fifties reading comics/mags such as The Victor and Commando. They were full of stories about bombing Germany, such as (Lancaster pilot Matt Braddock VC and his navigator George Bourne ). The basic theme was Smash the hun, this was FIFTEEN years after the end of the war, in comics aimed at ten year old kids.

Of course thousands of people had lost their close relatives in the conflict, so there was still a lot of bitterness about, which didn't really recede until the mid sixties.

https://johnknifton.com/tag/sergeant-matt-braddock...

[aeropilot]

theplayingmantis said:

i never knew they raised entire Dutch and Norwegian legions. Danish yes as they were a bit iffy before hand anyway allegiance wise.

Dutch was one of the biggest, with about 25,000 in about half a dozen Waffen SS Divisons.

Belgian even more, with some 40,000 signing up to the Waffen SS, some 7 Divisions worth.

Romania, some 50,000 joined up.

France, Hungary and Estonia, each about 20,000 in number.

Denmark & Norway not so much, only some 6,000 from each joined up into specific Danish & Norwegian units, although, there was also, a large number of Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Estonians and Finns that also made up the 5th SS Panzer Division Wiking.

[dai1983]

XCP said:

Mean while on the ground, my great uncle arrived at his regimental depot. He was a pre war regular joining the Army in 1928. He was a reservist in 1939 and was recalled on 3rd September to the South Wales Borderers depot at Brecon. All the way from Balham in south London. I often wonder what his thoughts were at the time.

My grandfather was in the South Wales Borderers as he couldn't join the regular Army due to having flat feet.

Sadly he died before I was born so I had to rely on the stories from my grandmother and my mum. I have an old WW2 enamelled mug that he used for shaving, his 1960s DE razor (harsh as hell!!) and a SWB tie pin with the Sphynx head on it.

[XCP]

The SWB were regular Army. The territorial battalions were the Monmouthshire Regt. My relative was in the latter when he was recalled to the colours on 3/9/39.

[aeropilot]

XCP said:

The SWB were regular Army.

Indeed they were regular army. SWB were a great old regiment, their original identity prior to 1881 being the 24th Regiment of Foot, a company of the 2/24th famously remembered for the defense of Rorkes Drift in 1879.

[dai1983]

XCP said:

The SWB were regular Army. The territorial battalions were the Monmouthshire Regt. My relative was in the latter when he was recalled to the colours on 3/9/39.

Only going by what they told me and what's on the tie pin. My mum used to say I myself was in the Army based out of Portsmouth where I'm a Marine who was based in Plymouth.

What are the decent sites to find out this info as id like to look into it? My surname is a bit odd and the Normandy cemetery database only has it show up at the German sites but it could be from anywhere in Europe.

[glazbagun]

vonuber said:

I think that by now my grandad would have been mobilised, if not actually already fighting.
He ended up fighting the Russians in 2 weeks time (which always seem to be forgotten) before escaping via the Romanian bridgehead.

This is news to me, actually. I knew about the partition of Poland, etc, but not of UK vs USSR actions when the Soviets had their pact. Are there any battles to read up on?

[XCP]

dai1983 said:

Only going by what they told me and what's on the tie pin. My mum used to say I myself was in the Army based out of Portsmouth where I'm a Marine who was based in Plymouth.

What are the decent sites to find out this info as id like to look into it? My surname is a bit odd and the Normandy cemetery database only has it show up at the German sites but it could be from anywhere in Europe.

Wiki has quite a lot of regimental history. CWGC website should help you locate a relatives grave. The SWB museum is in Brecon and may be able to help. ( It's under the umbrella of Royal Regiment of Wales now, which absorbed ( if that is the correct term) all the former Welsh battalions.)

[Derek Smith]

aeropilot said:

A similar incident led to the death of my paternal grandfather in 1943. Two years after being bombed out, he was Home Guard on guard duty of the large AA gun emplacements in West London, and a shell explosion, killed two female ATS gunners and injured him. While in hospital being treated/recovering someone was brought in with meningitis, which he caught and died from 3 weeks after being injured.
It took my Grandmother 5 years of arguing with the War Dept to get some sort of widow pension on the basis that he died while in service on the basis he wouldn't died had he not been injured in service and been hospitalised as a result.

My father said that faulty rounds were a common failure. There were those that would not go into the breech, which wasn't so bad, but some exploded as soon as they were fired. Faulty handling could be a problem. Faulty primers. It was a bit of a lottery. My father was in a command unit in a square in the centre of London. They lost contact with a satellite group, out in a small shed really, and they sent my father to go see what was wrong. It had taken a direct hit. My father returned to the command unit to find that had taken a hit as well. Just blind luck; bad for some, good for him, but scary he said.

I heard a fair bit about refusal to pay pensions despite it being obvious that they were serving at the time. A lot of my family were in the Merchant Navy and they got no compensation.

I'm with Eric with regards fear of another war. My generation is unique in UK history as there were no wars to ruin lives. There have been some 'good' films about the war. Saving Private Ryan can be criticised for the storyline, but the depiction of the landings was horrifying. I had an uncle on the North Atlantic convoys who saw ships sinking, setting the sea alight, and sailors jumping from their sinking ships into the inferno. It was common. Sailors would slide down the sides of ships that were keeling over and the barnacles and such would strip the soles of their feet and bottom. He said you could often see streaks of blood. There were few, if any, films about the convoys. The Cruel Sea was mainly about the Royal Navy. Yet mainly merchant marine sailors died in horrific circumstances. Burning, drowning, shelled.

We should not try and blame nationalities and races but we must remember what it will be like the next time, and there will be a next time, we go to war.

[XCP]

There have been plenty of wars since 1945. My generation fought in the Falklands, my daughters contemporaries in Iraq and Afghanistan for example.

[anonymous-user]

Zirconia said:

I am not familiar with the tactics. What I take away from this is the British were nat as adept as they thought they were dealing with U boats. Churchil had not long been there and assured it was safe (he was first sea lord at the time?). Apparently they started searching the skies for the bombers.

They’re just old freighters sunk in shallow water to deter submarines. There’s still a few in the orkneys.

I expect the gaps were for small ships to get through but small enough to make it difficult for submarines

Prien had to get through the narrow gaps, on one he even got stuck against the anchor chains and had to do some jiggery pokery with the ballast to get off. This was all done about 100 meters from the shore on the surface.

The British basically didn’t think anyone would get through at night and during the day, they’d see them.

Even when the Royal Oak had been hit by torpedoes, they assumed it was an air attack and started looking up instead of for submarines.

[wc98]

Wacky Racer said:

I was born in 1953 and grew up in the late fifties reading comics/mags such as The Victor and Commando. They were full of stories about bombing Germany, such as (Lancaster pilot Matt Braddock VC and his navigator George Bourne ). The basic theme was Smash the hun, this was FIFTEEN years after the end of the war, in comics aimed at ten year old kids.

Of course thousands of people had lost their close relatives in the conflict, so there was still a lot of bitterness about, which didn't really recede until the mid sixties.

https://johnknifton.com/tag/sergeant-matt-braddock...

i was born in 1970 and read those comics, they still had the same theme then. thinking back, definitely the victor, not sure about commando.

[cuprabob]

I've still got some Commando comics lying in a drawer somewhere.

[anonymous-user]

wc98 said:

i was born in 1970 and read those comics, they still had the same theme then. thinking back, definitely the victor, not sure about commando.

Victor, warlord and commando.

Commando is still around I think. I got a book which had loads of episodes inside. It wasn’t quite the same as single books with the cool artworks on the covers but still quite good.

Commando was the small book like mr men books with a soft cover.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 5th September 22:30

[vonuber]

glazbagun said:

vonuber said:

I think that by now my grandad would have been mobilised, if not actually already fighting.
He ended up fighting the Russians in 2 weeks time (which always seem to be forgotten) before escaping via the Romanian bridgehead.

This is news to me, actually. I knew about the partition of Poland, etc, but not of UK vs USSR actions when the Soviets had their pact. Are there any battles to read up on?

Not many in English, no - it's criminally under reported and ignored, as are all the subsequent Soviet atrocities against the Poles (there's a reason they hate the Russians). Wiki has a good synopsis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_P...

Funnily enough my Grandad got a medal for his participation in that (my dad wears it on chain around his neck), which was one of the reasons he ended up staying in the UK at the end of the war. That, most of his family being dead, and where he grew up now being part of the Ukraine.

The effect on Eastern Europe is not discussed in this country - it was the most important theatre of World War 2.