Israeli

[franki68]

FredClogs said:

Things are only going to get worse in Israel over the coming generations, the birth rate amongst the Haredi othordox Jews is nearly 3 times the (more liberal) second/third generation Jewish population. The people who's parents and grandparents moved to Israel from Europe and Russia when it was created and the children of Americans and Europeans who went in the 70s are leaving in large numbers. I would say by 2025 Israel (if it still exists) will be a complete theological democracy, perhaps even a theocracy and with that will come a st storm beyond all proportion to what's going on now...

I might be wrong.

The ultra orthodoxjews are still a relative minority in Israel ,the biggest factor in the demography in recent years was the collapse of the eastern block and the immigration of over 1 million people .add in quite large migration from France due to the rabid anti semitism there.
You also failed to mention the Jews who migrated into Israel when they were kicked out of the Arab countries,nearly 1m were kicked out of surrounding Arab countries ,many migrated to Israel in the 40s.

[Pappa Lurve]

FredClogs said:

Things are only going to get worse in Israel over the coming generations, the birth rate amongst the Haredi othordox Jews is nearly 3 times the (more liberal) second/third generation Jewish population. The people who's parents and grandparents moved to Israel from Europe and Russia when it was created and the children of Americans and Europeans who went in the 70s are leaving in large numbers. I would say by 2025 Israel (if it still exists) will be a complete theological democracy, perhaps even a theocracy and with that will come a st storm beyond all proportion to what's going on now...

I might be wrong.

with due respect - this is why people need to understand the situation. Haredi Jews are a small part of the orthodox community and are generally not too bad, other sections are far more extreme which complicates the politics. The birth rate is high in the orthodox but it is offset by the number of those born into orthodoxy who don't follow it, which makes the figures a tad pointless.

And the concept of a Jewish Theological state is not realistic for a number of reasons.In part due to Israel having a strictly secular constitution and armed forces and not least because it is largely unsupportable from both a theological point of view and a practical one. There is precisely no appetite for such a thing in any of the relevant groups and in most, a healthy loathing of the concept.

And I personally think to suggest the country will not be there in 11 years time is perhaps an unlikely outcome indeed!

[Lost soul]

After firing over 100 rockets into Israel in the last 24 hours operation Protective Edge is about to start

I hope they are happy now they as they have got what they seem to want

[FredClogs]

Pappa Lurve said:

FredClogs said:

Things are only going to get worse in Israel over the coming generations, the birth rate amongst the Haredi othordox Jews is nearly 3 times the (more liberal) second/third generation Jewish population. The people who's parents and grandparents moved to Israel from Europe and Russia when it was created and the children of Americans and Europeans who went in the 70s are leaving in large numbers. I would say by 2025 Israel (if it still exists) will be a complete theological democracy, perhaps even a theocracy and with that will come a st storm beyond all proportion to what's going on now...

I might be wrong.

with due respect - this is why people need to understand the situation. Haredi Jews are a small part of the orthodox community and are generally not too bad, other sections are far more extreme which complicates the politics. The birth rate is high in the orthodox but it is offset by the number of those born into orthodoxy who don't follow it, which makes the figures a tad pointless.

And the concept of a Jewish Theological state is not realistic for a number of reasons.In part due to Israel having a strictly secular constitution and armed forces and not least because it is largely unsupportable from both a theological point of view and a practical one. There is precisely no appetite for such a thing in any of the relevant groups and in most, a healthy loathing of the concept.

And I personally think to suggest the country will not be there in 11 years time is perhaps an unlikely outcome indeed!

Well you say that but if you look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israe... you'll see the disparity in the birth rates, it's the ultra religious Jews who are the people on the front line in the settlements who are essentially forcing the direction of Israeli politics and they do dream of a theocratic state, it's not the middle class suburbs of Tel Aviv who will hold the democratic balance for much longer, each and every compromise to extremism will take them closer to it and the Israeli state is made up in such a way and with such a history that I can't see the religious not winning the argument, because without the religion they don't have an argument at all.

[AW111]

Palestinians are all terrorists of course, unlike others -

This is from Lehi (the Stern gang) in 1943 :

Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man." But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all.

Oh, and this is Yitzhak Shamir, prime minister of Israel in the 80's :

There are those who say that to kill [Clifford] Martin [a British intelligence corps sergeant] is terrorism, but to attack an army camp is guerrilla warfare and to bomb civilians is professional warfare. But I think it is the same from the moral point of view. Is it better to drop an atomic bomb on a city than to kill a handful of persons? I don’t think so. But nobody says that President Truman was a terrorist. All the men we went for individually — Wilkin, Martin, MacMichael and others — were personally interested in succeeding in the fight against us.So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets. In any case, it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. For us it was not a question of the professional honor of a soldier, it was the question of an idea, an aim that had to be achieved. We were aiming at a political goal. There are many examples of what we did to be found in the Bible — Gideon and Samson, for instance. This had an influence on our thinking. And we also learned from the history of other peoples who fought for their freedom — the Russian and Irish revolutionaries, Giuseppe Garibaldi and Josip Broz Tito.

[Pappa Lurve]

FredClogs said:

Pappa Lurve said:

FredClogs said:

Things are only going to get worse in Israel over the coming generations, the birth rate amongst the Haredi othordox Jews is nearly 3 times the (more liberal) second/third generation Jewish population. The people who's parents and grandparents moved to Israel from Europe and Russia when it was created and the children of Americans and Europeans who went in the 70s are leaving in large numbers. I would say by 2025 Israel (if it still exists) will be a complete theological democracy, perhaps even a theocracy and with that will come a st storm beyond all proportion to what's going on now...

I might be wrong.

with due respect - this is why people need to understand the situation. Haredi Jews are a small part of the orthodox community and are generally not too bad, other sections are far more extreme which complicates the politics. The birth rate is high in the orthodox but it is offset by the number of those born into orthodoxy who don't follow it, which makes the figures a tad pointless.

And the concept of a Jewish Theological state is not realistic for a number of reasons.In part due to Israel having a strictly secular constitution and armed forces and not least because it is largely unsupportable from both a theological point of view and a practical one. There is precisely no appetite for such a thing in any of the relevant groups and in most, a healthy loathing of the concept.

And I personally think to suggest the country will not be there in 11 years time is perhaps an unlikely outcome indeed!

Well you say that but if you look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israe... you'll see the disparity in the birth rates, it's the ultra religious Jews who are the people on the front line in the settlements who are essentially forcing the direction of Israeli politics and they do dream of a theocratic state, it's not the middle class suburbs of Tel Aviv who will hold the democratic balance for much longer, each and every compromise to extremism will take them closer to it and the Israeli state is made up in such a way and with such a history that I can't see the religious not winning the argument, because without the religion they don't have an argument at all.

But thats is my whole point. Your analysis is based on numbers alone and no understanding of the population, the voting, what the Orthadox community want and their internal issues etc. Put it this way, show that to 99% of people in Israel and they will inform you that ten or twenty years ago, that was a concern but not much these days. Partly because the birth rates may be high but thats not relevant. What is relevant is the numbers who remain within that community politically.

With respect, I am going to bow out of this one.I have asked one question, which was to provide supporting evidence to a very serious accusation, which has not appeared. I am also rapidly reaching the conclusion that most people here have zero interest in knowing whats happening as long as they can argue a point based on very little. Thats fair enough ofcourse, but seems a tad pointless to me!

[Puggit]

Israeli friends on Facebook posting about a loud explosion in Tel Aviv. No warning or sirens proceeding it...

[whoami]

Lost soul said:

After firing over 100 rockets into Israel in the last 24 hours operation Protective Edge is about to start

I hope they are happy now they as they have got what they seem to want

A very prescient post.

[Norco]

Hello all,

I'm a pretty keen student of middle east history and having had first hand experience of the troubles I'd say that there really is NO solution to this problem other than people sitting down and realizing that life and peace are the most important things they have. That's what it comes down to. There is a big peace and re-conciliation movement in Israel and Palestine but it gets little if any coverage and extremists on both sides will do horrendous things as we have seen to keep the war going. Until the world ditches the idea of God there will never be a chance for real lasting peace and certainly not in the middle-east.

[Pappa Lurve]

Norco said:

Hello all,

I'm a pretty keen student of middle east history and having had first hand experience of the troubles I'd say that there really is NO solution to this problem other than people sitting down and realizing that life and peace are the most important things they have. That's what it comes down to. There is a big peace and re-conciliation movement in Israel and Palestine but it gets little if any coverage and extremists on both sides will do horrendous things as we have seen to keep the war going. Until the world ditches the idea of God there will never be a chance for real lasting peace and certainly not in the middle-east.

While you are largely correct,trying to bring logic to this thread and get people to see that despite their own views they are not actually expert even if they watched a whole news report is a waste of time mate!

I do strongly disagree that it is religious based though - that is used as a tool over there and a convenient tag for journalists and the public who are either too stupid or too lazy to understand the realities.! It is a factor but arguably it is not the critical issue or even the main historic cause of tensions.

[Grumfutock]

Norco said:

Hello all,

I'm a pretty keen student of middle east history and having had first hand experience of the troubles I'd say that there really is NO solution to this problem other than people sitting down and realizing that life and peace are the most important things they have. That's what it comes down to. There is a big peace and re-conciliation movement in Israel and Palestine but it gets little if any coverage and extremists on both sides will do horrendous things as we have seen to keep the war going. Until the world ditches the idea of God there will never be a chance for real lasting peace and certainly not in the middle-east.

Well there is the flaw in your plan sadly. You also must allow for the fact that mankind is a war like beast. What we want, we take. This will never change.

Sad but true.

[2013BRM]

Lost soul said:

After firing over 100 rockets into Israel in the last 24 hours operation Protective Edge is about to start

I hope they are happy now they as they have got what they seem to want

'they' being both sides of this ridiculous saga

[Lost soul]

2013BRM said:

Lost soul said:

After firing over 100 rockets into Israel in the last 24 hours operation Protective Edge is about to start

I hope they are happy now they as they have got what they seem to want

'they' being both sides of this ridiculous saga

It was not Israel firing rockets into Israel was it

[Countdown]

Lost soul said:

It was not Israel firing rockets into Israel was it

Perhaps if Israel stopped building more and more Settlements (coincidentally every time somebody starts a new peace initiative) it might stop the rockets.

Just a thought....

[2013BRM]

Lost soul said:

2013BRM said:

Lost soul said:

After firing over 100 rockets into Israel in the last 24 hours operation Protective Edge is about to start

I hope they are happy now they as they have got what they seem to want

'they' being both sides of this ridiculous saga

It was not Israel firing rockets into Israel was it

you misunderstand, the Palestinians are playing into the Israelis hands, well, the expansionist aspect of it at least

[franki68]

Countdown said:

Perhaps if Israel stopped building more and more Settlements (coincidentally every time somebody starts a new peace initiative) it might stop the rockets.

Just a thought....

just a thought ...that before any settlements were built in the occupied territories ,the palestinians launched rockets and suicide attacks on a regular basis.

[franki68]

2013BRM said:

you misunderstand, the Palestinians are playing into the Israelis hands, well, the expansionist aspect of it at least

palestinian spokesman on tv this morning

reporter : why are you firing rockets into israel when israel has said if the rocket attacks stop their attacks will stop'
PA guy: (silence for a minute)..but our rockets havent killed anyone
reporter: but they are meant to ?
PA guy : (silence again)
reporter changes tact: what about hamas,if hamas were removed there would be less issues
PA guy: I dont think that is the issue ,this started with the killing of the boy
reporter: this didnt start with the kidnapping and murder of 3 israeli youths ?

turned off after that.

[Countdown]

franki68 said:

just a thought ...that before any settlements were built in the occupied territories ,the palestinians launched rockets and suicide attacks on a regular basis.

There weren't any rockets or suicide bombs before 1947.

[2013BRM]

franki68 said:

Countdown said:

Perhaps if Israel stopped building more and more Settlements (coincidentally every time somebody starts a new peace initiative) it might stop the rockets.

Just a thought....

just a thought ...that before any settlements were built in the occupied territories ,the palestinians launched rockets and suicide attacks on a regular basis.

on what?.....considering there were no settlements

[Lost soul]