Will China be brought to account?

[Richyboy]

Anyone watched the Molyneux interview with Dr Paul Cottrell?

[Esceptico]

ash73 said:

Perhaps you could do it country by country if you grounded all flights and quarantined all ships.

The first country that does it could dominate the global economy for the next 10 years.

On a similar point, I wonder if China will hold the world to ransom if they are the first with a vaccine...

China exports a massive amount to the rest of the world. How is it in their own self interest to see their consumers suffer from the virus and not buy Chinese goods?

The Chinese will be just as keen to see a return to global economic stability as everyone else.

[alfaman]

otherman said:

Although it's a tough regime, they do want to trade with us, so I don't think they'll let this happen again. Because it's a touch regime, they can enforce what they choose. Not that I'd want to live there.

They previously caused 1 or 2 pandemics . And let it happen again. Nothing changed

[Alucidnation]

Maybe now the rest of the world will see that country for what it really is and remove its business from there.

I am more than happy to pay a bit extra for goods.

As I have posted elsewhere, nearly every serious problem has originated from that place and who’s to say it won’t happen again?

[ATG]

Alucidnation said:

Maybe now the rest of the world will see that country for what it really is and remove its business from there.

I am more than happy to pay a bit extra for goods.

As I have posted elsewhere, nearly every serious problem has originated from that place and who’s to say it won’t happen again?

"A bit extra" ....

[KrissKross]

ATG said:

Alucidnation said:

Maybe now the rest of the world will see that country for what it really is and remove its business from there.

I am more than happy to pay a bit extra for goods.

As I have posted elsewhere, nearly every serious problem has originated from that place and who’s to say it won’t happen again?

"A bit extra" ....

Correct, your Barby Doll might cost £1.10 instead of £1.00.

Many things people buy are non-essential and can be made here.

I closed our China operation and now manufacture in the UK, best thing we ever did.

[The Li-ion King]

Gecko1978 said:

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

oyster said:

It wouldn't be PH without a xenophobic/racist theread near the top of the charts.

And there we have the real issue.
You aren’t allowed to discuss actual real reasons or solutions without some donkey shouting racism.

All we can do is get through this and be better prepared for the next time it happens.

Its not racist to say these wet markets are filthy, breeding grounds for bacteria and viruses, and that the Chinese have let them continue even after SARS. A nation that monitors its people like no other could have prevented this. But because it doesn't give a st thousands are dead and the world economy in tatters. Firms will fail people will loose their homes and likey kill themselves because one nation can't be arsed to exercise even basic animal hygiene.

So fk China i hope made in China becomes a lable to avoid.

Only problem is China is very good at making lables (sic) along with goods for next to nothing. No one mentions how they are stripping West Africa of minerals in return for infrastructure (though seeing the collapse of that Coronavirus hospital recently didn't assure me of their workmanship)... as the world's factory, I don't think much will come of holding them to account. The wet markets are filthy though... all their neighbours have similar setups as well. They have gottten on top of the illness, but everyone who had left the country taking COVID-19 with them, is now heading back home, so will get a second dose...

[cardigankid]

BlackTails said:

Tell us: where do you stand on slavery reparations?

This is not IMHO about revenge or punishment, it is about stopping it happening again.

You look art the list of pandemics and where they came from, its Mexico 1, Unknown 2 and China all the rest. Its not impossible that we could be the source of the next one. And it is worth bearing in mind that all of these pandemics going back to the black plague, were the result of disgusting conditions somewhere on the planet.

However, the simple fact is that you cannot deal with a country which is going to allow this to happen repeatedly, and I do not think, post all this, that it will be acceptable to the electorate just to go back to the status quo ante. Politicians will be forced by public demand to do something about it.

What does that mean?

1. Lengthy quarantine and tough medical examinations for anyone coming into UK of Chinese nationality, coming from or from near China, or having spent time there recently. The universities aren't going to like it because their execs fancy salaries are going to vanish. Tough st. That will rein in the holidaymakers and the business trips too.
2. Essential supplies, and that may include communications, must be manufactured inside the UK, adequate stockpiles held, and distribution plans put in place.
3. We do not buy stuff from countries who cannot demonstrate to WHO inspectors that they meet basic standards of human rights. Its going to be hard, but do we not have enough already?
4. We do not buy stuff from countries who will not allow WHO inspectors to carry out unrestricted inspections.
5. We do not buy stuff from countries who permit disgusting and unhygienic conditions to exist. For a kick off these wet markets need to be bulldosed into a landfill site and the operators re educated in prison.

Its time to get back to hard realities.

[bp1]

cardigankid said:

This is not IMHO about revenge or punishment, it is about stopping it happening again.

You look art the list of pandemics and where they came from, its Mexico 1, Unknown 2 and China all the rest. Its not impossible that we could be the source of the next one. And it is worth bearing in mind that all of these pandemics going back to the black plague, were the result of disgusting conditions somewhere on the planet.

However, the simple fact is that you cannot deal with a country which is going to allow this to happen repeatedly, and I do not think, post all this, that it will be acceptable to the electorate just to go back to the status quo ante. Politicians will be forced by public demand to do something about it.

What does that mean?

1. Lengthy quarantine and tough medical examinations for anyone coming into UK of Chinese nationality, coming from or from near China, or having spent time there recently. The universities aren't going to like it because their execs fancy salaries are going to vanish. Tough st. That will rein in the holidaymakers and the business trips too.
2. Essential supplies, and that may include communications, must be manufactured inside the UK, adequate stockpiles held, and distribution plans put in place.
3. We do not buy stuff from countries who cannot demonstrate to WHO inspectors that they meet basic standards of human rights. Its going to be hard, but do we not have enough already?
4. We do not buy stuff from countries who will not allow WHO inspectors to carry out unrestricted inspections.
5. We do not buy stuff from countries who permit disgusting and unhygienic conditions to exist. For a kick off these wet markets need to be bulldosed into a landfill site and the operators re educated in prison.

Its time to get back to hard realities.

Can't say I disagree with any of that.

[jamoor]

cardigankid said:

BlackTails said:

Tell us: where do you stand on slavery reparations?

This is not IMHO about revenge or punishment, it is about stopping it happening again.

You look art the list of pandemics and where they came from, its Mexico 1, Unknown 2 and China all the rest. Its not impossible that we could be the source of the next one. And it is worth bearing in mind that all of these pandemics going back to the black plague, were the result of disgusting conditions somewhere on the planet.

However, the simple fact is that you cannot deal with a country which is going to allow this to happen repeatedly, and I do not think, post all this, that it will be acceptable to the electorate just to go back to the status quo ante. Politicians will be forced by public demand to do something about it.

What does that mean?

1. Lengthy quarantine and tough medical examinations for anyone coming into UK of Chinese nationality, coming from or from near China, or having spent time there recently. The universities aren't going to like it because their execs fancy salaries are going to vanish. Tough st. That will rein in the holidaymakers and the business trips too.
2. Essential supplies, and that may include communications, must be manufactured inside the UK, adequate stockpiles held, and distribution plans put in place.
3. We do not buy stuff from countries who cannot demonstrate to WHO inspectors that they meet basic standards of human rights. Its going to be hard, but do we not have enough already?
4. We do not buy stuff from countries who will not allow WHO inspectors to carry out unrestricted inspections.
5. We do not buy stuff from countries who permit disgusting and unhygienic conditions to exist. For a kick off these wet markets need to be bulldosed into a landfill site and the operators re educated in prison.

Its time to get back to hard realities.

You realise that you could say the same about India for points 3 and 5? Or in fact many developing countries?

Your rant seems to be against China except it seems to encapsulate a very large percentage of the globe.

[Wombat3]

jamoor said:

cardigankid said:

BlackTails said:

Tell us: where do you stand on slavery reparations?

This is not IMHO about revenge or punishment, it is about stopping it happening again.

You look art the list of pandemics and where they came from, its Mexico 1, Unknown 2 and China all the rest. Its not impossible that we could be the source of the next one. And it is worth bearing in mind that all of these pandemics going back to the black plague, were the result of disgusting conditions somewhere on the planet.

However, the simple fact is that you cannot deal with a country which is going to allow this to happen repeatedly, and I do not think, post all this, that it will be acceptable to the electorate just to go back to the status quo ante. Politicians will be forced by public demand to do something about it.

What does that mean?

1. Lengthy quarantine and tough medical examinations for anyone coming into UK of Chinese nationality, coming from or from near China, or having spent time there recently. The universities aren't going to like it because their execs fancy salaries are going to vanish. Tough st. That will rein in the holidaymakers and the business trips too.
2. Essential supplies, and that may include communications, must be manufactured inside the UK, adequate stockpiles held, and distribution plans put in place.
3. We do not buy stuff from countries who cannot demonstrate to WHO inspectors that they meet basic standards of human rights. Its going to be hard, but do we not have enough already?
4. We do not buy stuff from countries who will not allow WHO inspectors to carry out unrestricted inspections.
5. We do not buy stuff from countries who permit disgusting and unhygienic conditions to exist. For a kick off these wet markets need to be bulldosed into a landfill site and the operators re educated in prison.

Its time to get back to hard realities.

You realise that you could say the same about India for points 3 and 5? Or in fact many developing countries?

Your rant seems to be against China except it seems to encapsulate a very large percentage of the globe.

Fine, if the world is ever going to be a better place we have to start somewhere. You can plead with the Chinese all you like to get rid of the Wet Markets & coal fire power stations. Same as you can plead with the Brazilians to stop chopping down the Amazon or the Indonesians to stop cutting down ancient rain forests for palm oil plantations.

At the end of the day all they will ever respond to are economic levers. So just stop buying some of their st. You don't have to stop buying all of it but if enough people take just 30% of "made in China/Indonesia/Brazil" etc out of their shopping baskets it will have an effect.

We have too many vandals on the planet & its only when the rest of the world calls them to account (directly and through their wallets) that they *might* think about starting to behave as better neighbours/global citizens.

…..or we can just whinge about it and let them carry on. ?

[jamoor]

Wombat3 said:

Fine, if the world is ever going to be a better place we have to start somewhere. You can plead with the Chinese all you like to get rid of the Wet Markets & coal fire power stations. Same as you can plead with the Brazilians to stop chopping down the Amazon or the Indonesians to stop cutting down ancient rain forests for palm oil plantations.

At the end of the day all they will ever respond to are economic levers. So just stop buying some of their st. You don't have to stop buying all of it but if enough people take just 30% of "made in China/Indonesia/Brazil" etc out of their shopping baskets it will have an effect.

We have too many vandals on the planet & its only when the rest of the world calls them to account (directly and through their wallets) that they *might* think about starting to behave as better neighbours/global citizens.

…..or we can just whinge about it and let them carry on. ?

It's easy to tell the chinese to eliminate coal fire power stations or indonesians to stop cutting rain forests, when you're living in the UK.

Some of these people have to make a living in one way or another.

[fido]

Agree with above.

Wombat3 said:

Fine, if the world is ever going to be a better place we have to start somewhere.

Not sure impoverishing a whole country is making the world a better place - it's just heavily-disguised racism. The same kind of arguments the anti-semites use with Palestine against Israel. Besides the world is too global now to attribute blame to any single country - we have citizens living their and vice-versa who moved the virus around. They could rightly argue than whilst they left the dog turd that is Covid-19, the EU and ilk walked into it - don't forget Italy was infected via Germany. And their direct neighbours were aware of the risks and locked it down fast to minimise damage.

Funnily enough I've often criticised China's backwardness for yonks (never ever crossed the border from Hong Kong when I used to work there and often got into arguments with people about it). Well you loved their cheap stuff, and their investments and buying power (even if it means someone is paid a fifth of what you earn) you can't just turn around and say "it's all your fault but we didn't mind until now".

[Wombat3]

jamoor said:

Wombat3 said:

Fine, if the world is ever going to be a better place we have to start somewhere. You can plead with the Chinese all you like to get rid of the Wet Markets & coal fire power stations. Same as you can plead with the Brazilians to stop chopping down the Amazon or the Indonesians to stop cutting down ancient rain forests for palm oil plantations.

At the end of the day all they will ever respond to are economic levers. So just stop buying some of their st. You don't have to stop buying all of it but if enough people take just 30% of "made in China/Indonesia/Brazil" etc out of their shopping baskets it will have an effect.

We have too many vandals on the planet & its only when the rest of the world calls them to account (directly and through their wallets) that they *might* think about starting to behave as better neighbours/global citizens.

…..or we can just whinge about it and let them carry on. ?

It's easy to tell the chinese to eliminate coal fire power stations or indonesians to stop cutting rain forests, when you're living in the UK.

Some of these people have to make a living in one way or another.

Well its plainly obvious that they need to find a better way to do that, not only for our benefit, but ultimately for their own as well.

Ultimately we can either sit by and watch them fk things up for everybody, or we can try and find a way to get them to change direction.

Anything/everything tried so far appears to have had little effect - especially on the Chinese...That is until Trump (love him or loathe him) came along and started slapping tariffs on them. That appears to have got their attention somewhat in a way that has not been achieved before. His motivations are purely economic but the levers he has used can equally well be applied to a range of issues including non economic ones,.

Couple that with a little consumer choice/action & maybe we will get somewhere with them

[warp9]

KrissKross said:

Correct, your Barby Doll might cost £1.10 instead of £1.00.

Many things people buy are non-essential and can be made here.

I closed our China operation and now manufacture in the UK, best thing we ever did.

Bravo! After the dark times have passed I hope everyone steps back and thinks for a moment on what's important. Your friend, family, neighbour are important. Shiney landfill st isn't. I want less, but quality and provenance is important. My 8yr old is playing with early die cast transformers from 30 years ago. There great. I buy meat from an organic butchers. Go local dudes!!!

[Wombat3]

fido said:

Agree with above.

Wombat3 said:

Fine, if the world is ever going to be a better place we have to start somewhere.

Not sure impoverishing a whole country is making the world a better place - it's just heavily-disguised racism. The same kind of arguments the anti-semites use with Palestine against Israel. Besides the world is too global now to attribute blame to any single country - we have citizens living their and vice-versa who moved the virus around. They could rightly argue than whilst they left the dog turd that is Covid-19, the EU and ilk walked into it - don't forget Italy was infected via Germany. And their direct neighbours were aware of the risks and locked it down fast to minimise damage.

Funnily enough I've often criticised China's backwardness for yonks (never ever crossed the border from Hong Kong when I used to work there and often got into arguments with people about it). Well you loved their cheap stuff, and their investments and buying power (even if it means someone is paid a fifth of what you earn) you can't just turn around and say "it's all your fault but we didn't mind until now".

This has fk all to do with race. The idea that it does is frankly risible.

It has to do with the behaviour of nation states. None are perfect (including us) but some are much more imperfect than others. If the world is ever to be improved, made safer & more stable (and sustainable) then things have to change & it starts by holding the worst offenders (in a range of areas) to account first. The way we have dealt with some of those states (including China) has plainly been misguided because they are where they are causing the problems that they cause (at a Global level).

So we should change it and we have to accept that may have (largely economic) consequences in the short term.

Meanwhile, on the other hand, if other countries have issues with what we do in the world then we too need to listen to that and think about whether what we are doing is overall detrimental at Macro level.

Idealistic? Maybe, but what is the alternative ? The current course is a slow motion car crash

https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/

[fido]

Wombat3 said:

It has to do with the behaviour of nation states. None are perfect (including us) but some are much more imperfect than others. If the world is ever to be improved, made safer & more stable (and sustainable) then things have to change & it starts by holding the worst offenders (in a range of areas) to account first. The way we have dealt with some of those states (including China) has plainly been misguided because they are where they are causing the problems that they cause (at a Global level).

I agree a tough stance needs to be taken, but most young people under the regime (let's say those who were born post economic reforms in that country) will be as sick as you or I about wet markets and don't want anything do with it. Don't have a link but there was a survey in a university and nearly all wanted it banned (might have been this article:- https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-t... ).
So it's really the guys at the top of the tree that didn't crack down on it until this happened. If it was the other way round, and which 'super-powers' haven't done something bad in the past, would you condone the same sort of economic isolationism? It will become tit-for-tat and lead to conflicts. My family/relatives live in Singapore which is way closer to China and there isn't talk of retribution. I imagine it's the same in South Korea or Japan. I think we'll have to accept we took our eye of the ball (that is pandemic risk) and can't blame it all on China.

Edited by fido on Saturday 21st March 00:53

[anonymous-user]

ATG said:

"A bit extra" ....

Yes. Certainly once you price in not building the factory, equiping it, maintaining it and employing people 'here'. Outsourcing manufacturing over a certain complexity is a short term and false economy at the national scale. China has grown rich while we have grown fat and lazy borrowing money to pay them to build tomorrows garbage for us.

A Chinese colleague once told me to understand China right now you need to understand the story of King Goujian

https://swordofgoujian.weebly.com/goujian-and-fuch...

[Wombat3]

fido said:

Wombat3 said:

It has to do with the behaviour of nation states. None are perfect (including us) but some are much more imperfect than others. If the world is ever to be improved, made safer & more stable (and sustainable) then things have to change & it starts by holding the worst offenders (in a range of areas) to account first. The way we have dealt with some of those states (including China) has plainly been misguided because they are where they are causing the problems that they cause (at a Global level).

I agree a tough stance needs to be taken, but most young people under the regime (let's say those who were born post economic reforms in that country) will be as sick as you or I about wet markets and don't want anything do with it. Don't have a link but there was a survey in a university and nearly all wanted it banned (might have been this article:- https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-t... ).

So it's really the guys at the top of the tree that didn't crack down on it until this happened. If it was the other way round, and which 'super-powers' haven't done something bad in the past, would you condone the same sort of economic isolationism? It will become tit-for-tat and lead to conflicts. My family/relatives live in Singapore which is way closer to China and there isn't talk of retribution. I imagine it's the same in South Korea or Japan. I think we'll have to accept we took our eye of the ball (that is pandemic risk) and can't blame it all on China.

The fact is that todays leaders of China were only a little older than "young people" around the time of Tiananmen Square - that was over thirty years ago now. So it seems that as they get older they get greedy and they get "assimilated". I have little hope that the next few generations will be any better.

China has been warned about pandemic risk and they have always been the most likely source of one - and they have done little or nothing to prevent it. Indeed they have enable it in many ways. ….and then they tried to cover it up.

Meanwhile the rest of the world has been powerless to change that. Lets also be clear that we are very, very lucky that this virus is not much worse and much more dangerous to more people than it appears to be. This one, in many ways is a "let off".

So we are not dealing with a good neighbour or a good global citizen, we are dealing with a global bully that treats the planet as a resource for its own ends and "fk everybody else".

Meanwhile, the only language China appears to understand is economic, so that is the one we must speak.

"#sendChinathebill" "#dontbuymadeinChina"

[cardigankid]

Gromm said:

I was after duck spring rolls this morning but none were available in my local M&S. I suppose it’s a start.

I agree. I’ve eaten my last bat cutlet.