CV19 - Cure Worse Than The Disease? (Vol 18)
Discussion
Elysium said:
The thing for me was that, until Mar 2020, I though it we had enough checks and balances socially and constitutionally to avoid catastrophic mistakes being made in the interests of populism.
None of those checks and balances worked:
1. The human rights lobby, which is broadly left wing, decided to look the other way because they thought ‘the end justified the means’. The only real exception being Big Brother Watch, who are at least trying to remember their purpose.
2. The judiciary decided that the courts should not get involved.
3. The people responsible for protecting the public purse did whatever they were told because it was an emergency.
4. Parliament failed, because it was swept along in the groupthink and there was no difference between the Govt and the opposition.
So our rights were constrained for months on end and our financial resources were squandered because it came down to the whim of a handful of people who were entirely unsuited for the roles that were thrust upon them. The leaked What’s Apps and rule breaking in Downing Street prove that categorically.
We ONLY got out of this because Parliament eventually did it’s job and put pressure on the Govt to exercise a degree of financial responsibility. The fact that this was driven by Tory backbenchers rather than Labour should be forever to Starmer’s shame. He failed us all.
Understanding what happened and finding ways to limit the risk of it repeating is important. It’s not ‘reasonable’ to shrug our shoulders and ignore it on the basis that it’s what people do.
That has never been our way in the past and I don’t think it will be in the future.
Brewster, that's exactly how I feel. Well put!None of those checks and balances worked:
1. The human rights lobby, which is broadly left wing, decided to look the other way because they thought ‘the end justified the means’. The only real exception being Big Brother Watch, who are at least trying to remember their purpose.
2. The judiciary decided that the courts should not get involved.
3. The people responsible for protecting the public purse did whatever they were told because it was an emergency.
4. Parliament failed, because it was swept along in the groupthink and there was no difference between the Govt and the opposition.
So our rights were constrained for months on end and our financial resources were squandered because it came down to the whim of a handful of people who were entirely unsuited for the roles that were thrust upon them. The leaked What’s Apps and rule breaking in Downing Street prove that categorically.
We ONLY got out of this because Parliament eventually did it’s job and put pressure on the Govt to exercise a degree of financial responsibility. The fact that this was driven by Tory backbenchers rather than Labour should be forever to Starmer’s shame. He failed us all.
Understanding what happened and finding ways to limit the risk of it repeating is important. It’s not ‘reasonable’ to shrug our shoulders and ignore it on the basis that it’s what people do.
That has never been our way in the past and I don’t think it will be in the future.
Edited by Elysium on Wednesday 29th March 09:06
Now there's no political party to vote for, local councils do whatever they want, can't get a doctor's appointment easily, appears that dentists have disappeared unless you are loaded, can't heat our houses etc etc
I feel that we are going backwards very quickly.
BrewsterBear said:
He's not alone though. The world has irrevocably changed for me too. I feel like the Wizard of Oz's curtain has been pulled. I mean, I knew that all governments were fetid pools of corruption, but I believed that, in the west at least, it was kept out of sight and punished when outed. Now I see that even when presented with concrete evidence of their incompetence, embezzlement, nepotism, hands in the till, and downright dishonesty they either lie about it or shrug their shoulders and nobody seems to care. Why are they not being held to account?
I feel like the contract I had with the UK government has been broken and there's no way to fix it. They still expect me to keep up my side by paying in far more than I take, but they have no intention of upholding their side by providing a free and fair society. They don't even hide it any more. That they still haven't rescinded the power to place me under house arrest at will is chilling. That even with messages written by ministers stating they know it was all political theatre, people still think it's "no biggie." It all makes me literally feel sick. I have never felt less proud to be British in my entire life and there's nothing I can do about it. I am politically homeless with the only choice being between a sh!t sandwich or turd on toast.
The West as I knew it is dying and it's terminal. Tearing itself apart over whether women have penises, how many genders there are, how much we owe ex-colonies for things done hundreds of years ago, how many masks can save just one life, how many years of my life I should give up so Doris can have an extra 6 months to cower behind her sofa bleaching her mail. Whatever the western dream was, it's over. And then people wonder why Putin had the temerity to invade. I feel like we've never been closer to WWIII.
My outlook on life, the world, and everything, has changed. In some ways for good and in others for bad. I'm travelling a lot this year and for the next few before they stop us doing that again, in the name of a new bug, new war, net zero, or whatever they like as nobody will stop them. Maybe I'll find a part of the world I feel I fit in better. Whatever the outcome, it's now me and mine first and f**k everyone else. The majority have proven themselves not worth attempting to save. If they're willing to accept the status quo then they're welcome to it. It saddens me to feel that way, but when people won't even help themselves then there really is no alternative.
This is exactly how I feel too, cheers for posting this. It's really good to know I'm not the only one, so thank you I feel like the contract I had with the UK government has been broken and there's no way to fix it. They still expect me to keep up my side by paying in far more than I take, but they have no intention of upholding their side by providing a free and fair society. They don't even hide it any more. That they still haven't rescinded the power to place me under house arrest at will is chilling. That even with messages written by ministers stating they know it was all political theatre, people still think it's "no biggie." It all makes me literally feel sick. I have never felt less proud to be British in my entire life and there's nothing I can do about it. I am politically homeless with the only choice being between a sh!t sandwich or turd on toast.
The West as I knew it is dying and it's terminal. Tearing itself apart over whether women have penises, how many genders there are, how much we owe ex-colonies for things done hundreds of years ago, how many masks can save just one life, how many years of my life I should give up so Doris can have an extra 6 months to cower behind her sofa bleaching her mail. Whatever the western dream was, it's over. And then people wonder why Putin had the temerity to invade. I feel like we've never been closer to WWIII.
My outlook on life, the world, and everything, has changed. In some ways for good and in others for bad. I'm travelling a lot this year and for the next few before they stop us doing that again, in the name of a new bug, new war, net zero, or whatever they like as nobody will stop them. Maybe I'll find a part of the world I feel I fit in better. Whatever the outcome, it's now me and mine first and f**k everyone else. The majority have proven themselves not worth attempting to save. If they're willing to accept the status quo then they're welcome to it. It saddens me to feel that way, but when people won't even help themselves then there really is no alternative.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
jameswills said:
Here here. I view the World completely differently now, there’s no turning back that clock for me.
What I'm still trying to figure out is whether it was always like this - a complete pack of lies - and just became obvious then, or has it been steadily getting worse and this was just the most extreme case yet?
t mental again at the drop of a hat.It's really taken the wind out of my sails and I'm in a very different place mentally than I used to be
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Mayhe the same place I said midazolam explained every death in the world. In fact I said the spike seems to correspond closely with the spring 2020 excess deaths, and I only have figures for UK.
I was paraphrasing the reasonabilist position you seem to take in the same way.
Here - I was paraphrasing the reasonabilist position you seem to take in the same way.
isaldiri said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
...
There was no discernible spike in total deaths until well after the first lockdown started.
...There was no discernible spike in total deaths until well after the first lockdown started.
It tends to take a while for people to drop dead after infection so it's not exactly a shock that death rates only increased post lockdown1. Also given the rather clear rise in excess deaths well... anywhere one might want to look in the world corresponding to covid spread in 2020, I rather doubt the 2 were unrelated at all.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
...
The big spike in excess deaths in April and May 2020 corresponds a lot more closely with midazolam prescriptions than it does with covid tests.
Be interested to see where on any of my posts 'according to me' I had said or implied what you had stated I did.The big spike in excess deaths in April and May 2020 corresponds a lot more closely with midazolam prescriptions than it does with covid tests.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
jameswills said:
Here here. I view the World completely differently now, there’s no turning back that clock for me.
What I'm still trying to figure out is whether it was always like this - a complete pack of lies - and just became obvious then, or has it been steadily getting worse and this was just the most extreme case yet?They’ve always had their snouts in the trough but it’s got noticeabily worse over the last few years. I never used to take much notice of politics but since covid I sure do now.
I remember my dear old mum laughing her head off at 70’s sitcoms such as Rising Damp and Steptoe and Son when there were politicians involved. She always hated politicians and could sniff out bulls
t and wrong doing from miles away (and Saville & Glitter..) I never understood why at the time but now I do. I’m not as young as I used to be, I doubt that I am going to bother voting next time. I do hope that they come knocking on my door looking for votes in the next election. It’s likely that I shall be cleaning my upstairs windows with a bucket of water, and I’ll be ready for them. They’d better get off my property pretty quick or else they will be getting very wet!
Hants PHer said:
That is really sad to hear. My mother has two friends - she and they are in their 80's now - with whom she is very close. For nearly three years now, they have point blank refused to meet my mother at their, or at her, house. About two weeks ago they finally relented and Mum went to theirs for tea. Her friends kept their masks on, asked Mum to sanitise her hands, and would not shake hands let alone hug. None of them are especially vulnerable, none are immuno-compromised and they have all had every jab and booster going.
THAT is the legacy of fear that society has created, and, yes, it makes me angry. Not least because my mother is very, very lonely and now she can't even touch her best friends. Isaldiri thinks my anger won't achieve anything, and he may be right. But I can't simply ignore the massive damage that the fools who govern us have inflicted. And you know the worst thing? I think if there was Covid-23 tomorrow, we'd make the same damn mistakes all over again.
Totally agree. The government wound everyone up to (in many cases) a fever pitch on the basis that if they needed to persuade everyone then they needed to target the hardest to persuade. Therefore the more easily persuaded were VERY persuaded! THAT is the legacy of fear that society has created, and, yes, it makes me angry. Not least because my mother is very, very lonely and now she can't even touch her best friends. Isaldiri thinks my anger won't achieve anything, and he may be right. But I can't simply ignore the massive damage that the fools who govern us have inflicted. And you know the worst thing? I think if there was Covid-23 tomorrow, we'd make the same damn mistakes all over again.
And then they just left them there! When it was all over there were zero efforts to bring these people back down to reality.
I saw an elderly woman the other day, shuffling along the street in a residential area, on her own, not another soul around (just cars driving past), mask strapped tight across her face.
They remind me of the Japanese soldiers found hiding in the jungle years (sometimes decades) after WW2 ended. No one told them it was over so they were still fighting it.
What a tragic way to live out their remaining years, scared of the very air they breathe and believing that every human is a walking petri dish of death to be avoided.
GSE said:
I doubt that I am going to bother voting next time.
Same.I received my polling card in the post the other day, advising me that I need to bring photo ID with me to the polling station - yet another 'solution' to a non-existent problem.
I suppose I won't even bother spoiling my ballot.
Twinfan said:
This is also the bit I'm struggling with. Pre-pandemic I was approaching what I called "peak life" in that we had spent a lot of time getting financially stable and looking forward to doing a whole bunch of bucket list stuff. While the fog has mostly cleared with regards to world travel etc, there's still the gloom of thunder clouds in the sky. I just don't trust the world not to go batst mental again at the drop of a hat.
It's really taken the wind out of my sails and I'm in a very different place mentally than I used to be
In a way it’s possibly a good thing. Nothing is certain, including the stability of our society. Just look at what has happened to the people of Ukraine. t mental again at the drop of a hat.It's really taken the wind out of my sails and I'm in a very different place mentally than I used to be
None if us know what will happen. But COVID provides an insight into the way we will behave in a future crisis. I have had a comfortable life and like you am in a good place to enjoy the coming years. I fully intend to do that and will put my families welfare first, no matter what anyone says.
Biker 1 said:
GSE said:
I doubt that I am going to bother voting next time.
Same.I received my polling card in the post the other day, advising me that I need to bring photo ID with me to the polling station - yet another 'solution' to a non-existent problem.
https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-voter-author...
It arrived almost as soon as I submitted the application
Biker 1 said:
I suppose I won't even bother spoiling my ballot.
Big cock and balls on mine or NOTA - still not made up my mind If MRLP put a candidate up against Truss previous choices go out the window and I'll vote for whoever stands for them
Elysium said:
In a way it’s possibly a good thing. Nothing is certain, including the stability of our society. Just look at what has happened to the people of Ukraine.
None if us know what will happen. But COVID provides an insight into the way we will behave in a future crisis. I have had a comfortable life and like you am in a good place to enjoy the coming years. I fully intend to do that and will put my families welfare first, no matter what anyone says.
Indeed, and I'm re-configuring my expectations accordingly. It's just taking me a little time. It is a real First World problem though for sure, and I'm eternally grateful for all that I have,None if us know what will happen. But COVID provides an insight into the way we will behave in a future crisis. I have had a comfortable life and like you am in a good place to enjoy the coming years. I fully intend to do that and will put my families welfare first, no matter what anyone says.
Sorry meant to say I applied for it because
I can't find my passport haven't used it for over 3 years due to some rules about having a vaccine in order to cross international borders.... (It will be somewhere very safe......)
My DL is a paper one as I haven't moved house in over 31 years rather than a Photocard one
So I'm a bit fked for photo ID
I can't find my passport haven't used it for over 3 years due to some rules about having a vaccine in order to cross international borders.... (It will be somewhere very safe......)
My DL is a paper one as I haven't moved house in over 31 years rather than a Photocard one
So I'm a bit f
ked for photo ID Agree completely on voting GSE.
I got a bit suckered in to the Corbyn thread recently. I got half way through a long reply then just thought "sod this." Why even give such importance to it?
It doesn't matter which party or which wing of it gets in - Labour, Tory, Liberal, Green. Farage got suckered into it. Trump, Biden, Adern, Merkel and Modi.
Sweden is held up as an example but even they had restrictions, masks and vaccines. They were the tallest dwarf.
You get pulled in to a whole false dualism while they do what the hell they want.
I got a bit suckered in to the Corbyn thread recently. I got half way through a long reply then just thought "sod this." Why even give such importance to it?
It doesn't matter which party or which wing of it gets in - Labour, Tory, Liberal, Green. Farage got suckered into it. Trump, Biden, Adern, Merkel and Modi.
Sweden is held up as an example but even they had restrictions, masks and vaccines. They were the tallest dwarf.
You get pulled in to a whole false dualism while they do what the hell they want.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
jameswills said:
Here here. I view the World completely differently now, there’s no turning back that clock for me.
What I'm still trying to figure out is whether it was always like this - a complete pack of lies - and just became obvious then, or has it been steadily getting worse and this was just the most extreme case yet?grumbledoak said:
BrewsterBear said:
He's not alone though. The world has irrevocably changed for me too. I feel like the Wizard of Oz's curtain has been pulled. I mean, I knew that all governments were fetid pools of corruption, but I believed that, in the west at least, it was kept out of sight and punished when outed. Now I see that even when presented with concrete evidence of their incompetence, embezzlement, nepotism, hands in the till, and downright dishonesty they either lie about it or shrug their shoulders and nobody seems to care. Why are they not being held to account?
I feel like the contract I had with the UK government has been broken and there's no way to fix it. They still expect me to keep up my side by paying in far more than I take, but they have no intention of upholding their side by providing a free and fair society. They don't even hide it any more. That they still haven't rescinded the power to place me under house arrest at will is chilling. That even with messages written by ministers stating they know it was all political theatre, people still think it's "no biggie." It all makes me literally feel sick. I have never felt less proud to be British in my entire life and there's nothing I can do about it. I am politically homeless with the only choice being between a sh!t sandwich or turd on toast.
The West as I knew it is dying and it's terminal. Tearing itself apart over whether women have penises, how many genders there are, how much we owe ex-colonies for things done hundreds of years ago, how many masks can save just one life, how many years of my life I should give up so Doris can have an extra 6 months to cower behind her sofa bleaching her mail. Whatever the western dream was, it's over. And then people wonder why Putin had the temerity to invade. I feel like we've never been closer to WWIII.
My outlook on life, the world, and everything, has changed. In some ways for good and in others for bad. I'm travelling a lot this year and for the next few before they stop us doing that again, in the name of a new bug, new war, net zero, or whatever they like as nobody will stop them. Maybe I'll find a part of the world I feel I fit in better. Whatever the outcome, it's now me and mine first and f**k everyone else. The majority have proven themselves not worth attempting to save. If they're willing to accept the status quo then they're welcome to it. It saddens me to feel that way, but when people won't even help themselves then there really is no alternative.
Well said.I feel like the contract I had with the UK government has been broken and there's no way to fix it. They still expect me to keep up my side by paying in far more than I take, but they have no intention of upholding their side by providing a free and fair society. They don't even hide it any more. That they still haven't rescinded the power to place me under house arrest at will is chilling. That even with messages written by ministers stating they know it was all political theatre, people still think it's "no biggie." It all makes me literally feel sick. I have never felt less proud to be British in my entire life and there's nothing I can do about it. I am politically homeless with the only choice being between a sh!t sandwich or turd on toast.
The West as I knew it is dying and it's terminal. Tearing itself apart over whether women have penises, how many genders there are, how much we owe ex-colonies for things done hundreds of years ago, how many masks can save just one life, how many years of my life I should give up so Doris can have an extra 6 months to cower behind her sofa bleaching her mail. Whatever the western dream was, it's over. And then people wonder why Putin had the temerity to invade. I feel like we've never been closer to WWIII.
My outlook on life, the world, and everything, has changed. In some ways for good and in others for bad. I'm travelling a lot this year and for the next few before they stop us doing that again, in the name of a new bug, new war, net zero, or whatever they like as nobody will stop them. Maybe I'll find a part of the world I feel I fit in better. Whatever the outcome, it's now me and mine first and f**k everyone else. The majority have proven themselves not worth attempting to save. If they're willing to accept the status quo then they're welcome to it. It saddens me to feel that way, but when people won't even help themselves then there really is no alternative.
This was a script they have used before and they will do it all again. There are no consequences. No-one in power will be held to account. Our liberal democracy is a sham, but it is enough to prevent the cattle from getting restless. Add the occasional fright and you can shunt them in any direction you want. That direction, the destination even, was decided some decades ago. You won't like it. But you will be happy according to the YouGov poll results.
One thing to really make you stand up and take notice is that during this "pandemic", which was supposedly so deadly and important to everyone's well-being, they passed more laws than ever before, they expedited and pushed through the "net zero" nonsense and then decided that entering a proxy war in Ukraine was a good idea.
2019 seems like 30 years ago now.
2019 seems like 30 years ago now.
jameswills said:
One thing to really make you stand up and take notice is that during this "pandemic", which was supposedly so deadly and important to everyone's well-being, they passed more laws than ever before, they expedited and pushed through the "net zero" nonsense and then decided that entering a proxy war in Ukraine was a good idea.
2019 seems like 30 years ago now.
who are 'they' and how do you think they have in any way expedited and pushed through net zero? 2019 seems like 30 years ago now.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Sweden is held up as an example but even they had restrictions, masks and vaccines.
This is where I recommend stepping back. There is a domino effect here where we ending up rejecting all interventions. I do believe COVID was a genuine threat. But is seemed obvious to me from the outset that the only way through it was to face it. Limiting our interactions slowed transmission and was necessary. But we went too far and neglected human rights when we forced that behaviour change through lockdown.
Vaccines saved lives, but should never have been pushed for the young and healthy and vaccine passports were a deranged dystopian nightmare.
Doing nothing was never an option and Sweden at least tried to respect human rights in the process. They show us that the more draconian approaches did not bring greater benefits.
Sweden indulged in vaccine passports for entry, but not domestically. Having visited them toward the end of the pandemic I think there was a dual response in Sweden. What they did internally and what they presented to the outside world. This was obvious in the way that they ‘switched on’ all the COVID madness on planes leaving the country when none of it was required on the way there or anywhere within Sweden.
pork911 said:
jameswills said:
One thing to really make you stand up and take notice is that during this "pandemic", which was supposedly so deadly and important to everyone's well-being, they passed more laws than ever before, they expedited and pushed through the "net zero" nonsense and then decided that entering a proxy war in Ukraine was a good idea.
2019 seems like 30 years ago now.
who are 'they' and how do you think they have in any way expedited and pushed through net zero? 2019 seems like 30 years ago now.
Seventy said:
jameswills said:
The UK government. In November 2020 when we were all locked down, Johnson brought forward the petrol and diesel car ban from 2040 to 2030. Just like that, out of the blue, during a "pandemic".
No he didn’t. https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/driving-tech/sale...
jameswills said:
I've very unsure. 2008 crash and then the bail outs made me really think about the markets and how our economy didn't make a lot of sense, plus the warmongering we seem to do on a whim but try and call out others for doing the same, but I just put that down to recent blips and typical boom and bust economy of the Capitalist West. Now I don't believe in any of it. Absolute sham.
2008 was extraordinary, but it was building up way before then as I see it. We had been piling up debt for years before then and we just printed a load more money to "solve" the problem.The Iraq war and the WMD were made up
Climate Change, 9/11, AIDS, famine, moon landings, war, peace, empire and everything else. If not entirely fabricated these things are at least spun and manupulated in a way and to such extraordinary degrees for the benefit of whatever it is certain groups want to do anyway.
The further I go down the rabbit hole the more sense it makes until I find myself scrabbling back out thinking these nutty conspiracy theories can't be right - it flies in the face of everything I know. Back out, blinking in the light I see people arguing over whether Boris Johnson had a glass of wine at his desk in a professional capacity as a key worker or or as a lying scoundrel who doesn't follow his own rules and I think this s
t makes alien lizard overlords seem like a logical explanation. I'm caught between because the errant nonsense on the surface is so far gone that people aren't receptive to logic or reason, because they're too partisan and too caught up in picking over various details within the lies. Going down the rabbit hole again makes some sense but it isn't merely an uncomfortable truth - it's a complete reevaluation of who were are, what we're about and what we stand for. It would require the complete overthrow of every institution, the slaughter of every sacred cow and the smashing of every pillar that supports the current order.
I'm not a revolutionary by nature and I instinctively tend to thing that would do more harm than good. At the same time though I can't stand to see these lies go unchallenged where they become accepted as truths and become foundations of how we live.
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