Scottish Referendum / Independence

[gtdc]

ViperPict said:

gtdc said:

ViperPict said:

It's OK, I'm here, the thread is saved!

In seriousness though, I think many English would love AS as a leader. Someone who actually fights hard for the interests of his counry-folk and has a clear passion (whether you agree with that passion or not). And, unlike Cameron, he has a mandate AND a majority!

So many benefits to Scotland being independent, if you're living in Scotland. Most 'discussed' at length on here but, as one good example, smaller, more centralised government, not the over-weight behemoth that is Westminster.

Salmond really did play a political master-stroke today in totally stealing the thunder on the Unionists. If you doubt this, let's see what the headlines in tomorrow's papers are! Cameron so wanted to be making the headlines on this but no such luck toff-boy!

This post. This makes it very hard for me to understand the issue because everytime I try and discuss this with Scottish people they start up with the Tory toff/English bad stuff. It's not a conversation strand that has featured heavily in my life since The Young Ones era in the 80s and I always find it very surprising when I'm in Scotland to hear people still talking like it.

Given that we have a Tory PM trying to call the shots, I think it is justified!

That was my point exactly..

[Blue Cat]

ViperPict said:

IrateNinja said:

ViperPict said:

They will not close under independence. They will actually have a far longer lifespan...

Serving what purpose?

Maintaining our Navy, which, given our waters, will need to be proportionally quite large.

Plunging into shark invested waters here - but if, as you say, you are going to need a large navy which will keep the shipyards open, how are these ships going to be paid for? By the Scottish taxpayer I guess - ie the taxes of the people who work at the shipyards and all at once you have the same situation as we are suffering here with the public sector.

[stitched]

ViperPict said:

For 'SNP squirming' read 'sticking hard to their guns' while Scameron stamps his feet in his wee blue booties...

But the 'current economic climate' argument is one I would use for independnce! Osbourne's strategy of 'recovery' is a fking joke - let's get out before he sinks the ship.

Incidentally this form of utter idiocy is probably the reason I would vote to get rid of Scotland.
As an economy not being supported by the rest of the Union Scotland would survive for about 3 seconds before implosion, I am heartily sick and tired of listening to the puerile whinging from north of the border and even more tired of the tts you select as MPs.
So to hear that a massive drain on UK taxes whose childish leaders stay in power by subsidising larger numbers of feckless wkers than even we do want to be independant.
Fantastic so STFU and get on with it.

[muffinmenace]

Blue Cat said:

Plunging into shark invested waters here - but if, as you say, you are going to need a large navy which will keep the shipyards open, how are these ships going to be paid for? By the Scottish taxpayer I guess - ie the taxes of the people who work at the shipyards and all at once you have the same situation as we are suffering here with the public sector.

Also Scotland will have increased borrowing costs off the bat and will have to work hard to bring it down once markets can begin to trust them. IIRC Germany started at 7% when the Euro was created?

[Trommel]

All been done before in the other thread. There were no real arguments from the separatists then, there won't be now.

[muffinmenace]

Trommel said:

All been done before in the other thread. There were no real arguments from the separatists then, there won't be now.

I think the argument needs to move on from the personal and idealogical views to the legal and fiscal arguments, of course these will start to come thick and fast now that there seems to be sort of process in action.

[thinfourth2]

Guam said:

On your Firstt point I believe they said it would result in a reduced likelihood of a Labour government unless you can point to where this was said, which is NOT the same as saying there would not be any. Incidentally that assertion is statistically correct, the probability of a labour government post split WOULD be less <would not preclude it however>.

On your second point here again we agree <twice in one thread who would have thought it>.

Bear in mind however if a "Free Scotland" stays in the EU your issues with Westminster may be resolved but you will swop London for Berlin in terms of the centre of real power <if the Fiscal union becomes a reality>.
So other than some romantic notion of sticking it to the "Auld Enemy".
I fail to see what Scotland will actually gain in terms of political "independence".

The old swapping one load of hopeless idiots for another bunch of hopeless idiots problem

If the UK stays in europe which is highly likely with the constant swapping of blue and red idiots then westminister is merely a small buffer between scotland and europe.

If it looks like cameron will grow a pair and take the UK out of europe i would happily stay in the union but this is unlikely so I see westminister merely as an unwanted middle man.

Or look at it from another angle in 5 years time we could have Salmond as PM of Scotland or Beaker as leader of the UK

I'll have Salmond thanks

[cardigankid]

muffinmenace said:

cardigankid said:

I am currently a Scot living in Scotland. If I were English I would be very keen to be shot of Scotland, the only downside being that you don't want an unstable country on your doorstep. It is difficult to know how things will pan out, but my clear impression is that the SNP will 'win' the referendum, and therefore I am making plans to move south or even further afield. I assume that others are doing likewise, leaving the handout junkies and the political cronies behind to form the core of this brave new nation.

Why is it unhappy? Has it always been that way or is it just Dear Leader and crew telling people they're hard done to?

Did you read my previous post, it explains, imho, exactly why we are where we are.

Unhappy? Because the only thing that they can do is to become a VERY high tax and high spending government, and since the 'Celtic Tiger' is no longer a suitable role model, it will be on the 'Scandinavian model'. I have no great desire to copy our alcoholic depressive Scandinavian friends nor do I think their regimes are worth emulating even if Scotland could, which I strongly suspect that it can't.

[thinfourth2]

stitched said:

I am heartily sick and tired of listening to the puerile whinging from north of the border and even more tired of the tts you select as MPs.

Strangly enough thats exactly how i feel about the english political system

As to Your MPs Diana Abbot, Ed Balls, the millibrands all outstanding examples of our poltical system

[V88Dicky]

MX7 said:

Why Denmark? It's geography puts it in a very different situation to Scotland. Ireland is probably a better comparison.

Indeed. It's taken 80 years for the Republic to get it's Armed Forces to where they are now.

Namely, 7 or so patrol vessels, NO airforce, and a small army. Two of those vessels are ex-RN, the rest were built in Ireland. The Irish Army buy all of their equipment from abroad, thus not supporting any defence jobs at all really.

[Jinx]

So cancel HS2 as use the funds to rebuild Hadrian's wall?

[jshell]

cardigankid said:

I assume that others are doing likewise, leaving the handout junkies and the political cronies behind to form the core of this brave new nation.

I'm gone already, as have some of my old colleagues. However, the oil industry is almost completely insulated from those factors affecting the majority population.

[thinfourth2]

Guam said:

That argument is contradictory, you want out of THe UK due to us staying in the EU but are happy to be "independent" within the same EU?

Interesting position

No if we (the UK) are stuck in europe then i want to remove a buffer between europe and Scotland. If the UK is stepping away from europe then yes please. But the UK won't leave europe so I would prefer to have a tiny bit on influence in the direction europe takes instead of a really tiny influence

I voted UKIP in the general election

Guam said:

Ok as I read your argument so far you arent happy with a "Tory" pm setting the date, if He was A scot and Labour would you feel the samE?

I don't give a st where someone comes from but i have a feeling you may struggle to belive this

As to tie colour the blue ties appear to marginally less useless then red ties.

Guam said:

Surely Gordon Brown could have done this for you? So why didnt he?

What the fat useless windbag which millions of english voters wanted as PM who as leader of Labour got more MPs in London then he did in Scotland.

Or were you expecting me to defend him because he is A scottish B labour

Guam said:

And you want out of the UK but not out of the EU even though that would mean ceding your new found soveirgny back to Brussels and Berlin,

No if we (the UK) are stuck in europe then i want to remove a buffer between europe and Scotland. If the UK is stepping away from europe then yes please. But the UK won't leave europe so I would prefer to have a tiny bit on influence in the direction europe takes instead of a really tiny influence

I voted UKIP in the general election

Guam said:

So this is all about bigotry really,

this maybe true but not on my behalf

[KENZ]

I'm at work and TBH cant be bothered reading thru this topic as it's been covered many times. However I for one will either vote Full Independance or Fiscal Automony. Roll on 2014.

Proud to be Scottish

[mattnunn]

ViperPict said:

It is the ignorant views that have been exemplified by some folk here that only fuel the independence cause (Edinburgh built on OUR empire, i.e., the 'English' empire).

Blimey, Kilt on too tight? That is incredible, is that how a discussion works? I use a word that has a very specific meaning "OUR" and you substitute it's meaning for something you imagine I mean, then have the audacity to claim you're not chippy and it's me who is!

Quite remarkable.

FWIW I am British, you are British, we are British, it was collectively known as the British Empire, not the English Empire. Whole bag of chips on you mate, deep fried in batter.

[jshell]

doogz said:

Guam said:

No I am not
Have you READ the entire thread?

My point was and is its not an issue the whole of the UK will be given a say in BECAUSE the outcome would be a majority yes vote!

Now whether anyone likes it or not thats what most pollsters and political commentators agree on.
The Nationalists want the argument both ways.
My point is if they REALLY want independence hold the vote now and let the whole UL have a say, they will get their wish then. We know it, THEY know it.

So why dont they follow through on it then?

Instead they whine about the date and a yes no vote as if its some major "Cultural issue" when its a constitutional one.

i frirmly believe they dont want independance they want devomax.
Cameron has called their bluff.
My position is stfu and get it done YOU guys can then determine your future and move on <in either direction>.

If more than half of you dont want it then it will be put to rest.
Either way the whining will end!

Whose wish? That's the whole point that you're completely missing.

I think Guam is deliberately missing the points that posters are making and therefore this thread will simply go round in circls.

He keeps saying 'You' want independence as if all of Scotland actually wants that, whereas most of us don't believe that.

[Northern Munkee]

Well if it's going to have a major impact on the remaining members of the union, and fiscally be a nightmare to untwine the nations, defence, UN sec council & seats at all the other top table etc then, CMD should up the ante and give the whole UK a vote on the question - should be a simple, "do you wish to dissolve the union?" yes or no.

And let's find out what all of the people actually want, and aside from the nutty national socialists in each country, I think the overwhelming majority would be happy to carry on as it has served us all generally so well for so long. And see how popular that makes Mr Salmond with the scots, welsh, ulster unionists and Irish in the north (and indeed in the republic) at the prospect of destabilising the UK.

[thinfourth2]

Its irrelevant anyway

Camoron and beaker have agreed that the union must stay in place

Union

[turbobloke]

Isn't the key point that regardless of the date, what the question(s) say, what colour the voting paper is or whether the SNP is getting big for its boots, even a vote for independence outcome is not of itself sufficient. Only the UK parliament can grant independence to Scotland, not voters in a referendum.

[Derek Smith]

The suggestion that if Scotland does leave the Union then Labour would never get in is more hope than fact. The political leaning of any of the major parties is governed, to a great extent, by the views of the electorate.

If the Scots MPs were removed from Westminster then if labour wanted to be re-elected they would have to move nearer the centre. The history of the Tories is the fight between the right and the centrists. With the Scots removed it will lurch to the right.

If Labour did not move and the Tories did then it would leave a gap in the middle which would be exploited by the LibDems. After the Callaghan government Labour lurched to the left and was all but abandoned by the electorate. The Gang of Four set up their own party and had a very solid following. Blair's New labour (same old crap) saved the party by moving it substantially to the centre.