Meanwhile in Turkey
Discussion
p1stonhead said:
f
kwit Reggie strikes again.....Guvernator said:
The thing is I'm not sure what Europe could have done about it. Perhaps admitting Turkey into Europe around the start of the millennium might have staved this off although that would have probably created a few problems of it's own.
Erdogan arrived on the scene with almost impeccable timing and took full advantage of the Turkish populations weaknesses and divisions. He has carried out an almost perfect playbook of removing opposition, dividing and conquering, controlling of the media etc. He is also a very good public speaker, he makes the opposition look like amateurs so this is either rather raw talent or he has been given expert training. He really hasn't put a step wrong in getting to where he has so he is either a lot cleverer than he looks or he has some VERY clever advisers.
Personally I have some theories on just who might have been helping him along but that will probably get the PH conspiracy theory bashers out in force so I'll leave it there.
Go ahead and share your theories, we can form a coalition of the truthful to counter the PH keyboard warriors and bashers if they dare surface....Erdogan arrived on the scene with almost impeccable timing and took full advantage of the Turkish populations weaknesses and divisions. He has carried out an almost perfect playbook of removing opposition, dividing and conquering, controlling of the media etc. He is also a very good public speaker, he makes the opposition look like amateurs so this is either rather raw talent or he has been given expert training. He really hasn't put a step wrong in getting to where he has so he is either a lot cleverer than he looks or he has some VERY clever advisers.
Personally I have some theories on just who might have been helping him along but that will probably get the PH conspiracy theory bashers out in force so I'll leave it there.
Likes Fast Cars said:
Go ahead and share your theories, we can form a coalition of the truthful to counter the PH keyboard warriors and bashers if they dare surface....
Well there are a few possible candidates who stand to gain a lot from destabilising that country\region but one stands out for me. The MO is very familiar, install a dictator, let the country tear itself apart then step in to save the day. We've seen this scenario played out time and again in the Middle East. Gülen, Erdogans alleged kingmaker and former partner in crime is now a guest of a certain 3 letter law international enforcement organisation in Pensilvania, make of that what you will. Previous party members in Turkey have been positively amateurish in comparison, this guy came from literally nowhere but is just on a different level in terms of the power he has achieved and how he went about it, he just doesn't seem that clever so he is either the luckiest sob on the planet or someone is helping him.
Just a pet theory but shared by a few people I know, fully prepared to be told to put my tin foil hat on though.
Guvernator said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
Go ahead and share your theories, we can form a coalition of the truthful to counter the PH keyboard warriors and bashers if they dare surface....
Well there are a few possible candidates who stand to gain a lot from destabilising that country\region but one stands out for me. The MO is very familiar, install a dictator, let the country tear itself apart then step in to save the day. We've seen this scenario played out time and again in the Middle East. Gülen, Erdogans alleged kingmaker and former partner in crime is now a guest of a certain 3 letter law international enforcement organisation in Pensilvania, make of that what you will. Previous party members in Turkey have been positively amateurish in comparison, this guy came from literally nowhere but is just on a different level in terms of the power he has achieved and how he went about it, he just doesn't seem that clever so he is either the luckiest sob on the planet or someone is helping him.
Just a pet theory but shared by a few people I know, fully prepared to be told to put my tin foil hat on though.
The other one I would reckon (beside Qatar) is Egypt but not he country, rather the MB; they are vicious and Reggie and his cronies are (& always have been) strong supporters of the MB. Remember the outcry over Morsi?
MrBrightSi said:
Fascinating post, glad to see you loving Germany, for all the issues i don't like, it's a big beautiful country with (even though they wont admit it) a deep and interesting history that predates the 1930's. It's nice to see not all Turks in Europe are clamouring for the Ottoman empire 2.0.
for me personally it is not about Germany or Turkey, both countries have their positives and negatives.Germany right now for example is too hung up on how "bad" the foreigners are (especially people from Syria and now Turkey)
The AfD together with the NPD are really banging the drum and unfortunately too many people are just jumping on the bangwagon.
Germany has been down this road before, it is not about Genocide, just starting to generalise in regards to a whole county is enough to intoxicate everything.
To be honest, right now I am glad not to live in Germany because the issue outlined above is something deeply unsettling for me. I may be born in Germany, I may be a German citizen, but to some and the number of people thinking this way is rising, I will always be some "from there", "A Turk".
Turkey has its faults, no doubt. To be honest, my decision to move here was a financial one. Calculated in € or Sterling I make little money. But it gives me the opportunity to be a homeowner before my 26th birthday
tektas said:
MrBrightSi said:
Fascinating post, glad to see you loving Germany, for all the issues i don't like, it's a big beautiful country with (even though they wont admit it) a deep and interesting history that predates the 1930's. It's nice to see not all Turks in Europe are clamouring for the Ottoman empire 2.0.
for me personally it is not about Germany or Turkey, both countries have their positives and negatives.Germany right now for example is too hung up on how "bad" the foreigners are (especially people from Syria and now Turkey)
The AfD together with the NPD are really banging the drum and unfortunately too many people are just jumping on the bangwagon.
Germany has been down this road before, it is not about Genocide, just starting to generalise in regards to a whole county is enough to intoxicate everything.
To be honest, right now I am glad not to live in Germany because the issue outlined above is something deeply unsettling for me. I may be born in Germany, I may be a German citizen, but to some and the number of people thinking this way is rising, I will always be some "from there", "A Turk".
Turkey has its faults, no doubt. To be honest, my decision to move here was a financial one. Calculated in € or Sterling I make little money. But it gives me the opportunity to be a homeowner before my 26th birthday
Turkeys membership of NATO is at risk, if he goes full on dictator then I cant see how Turkey can remain a member, which is only going to make the region even more unstable.
The only way this can stop is if the people of Turkey do something about it, or he dies, the first is not looking likely.
The only way this can stop is if the people of Turkey do something about it, or he dies, the first is not looking likely.
tektas said:
MrBrightSi said:
Fascinating post, glad to see you loving Germany, for all the issues i don't like, it's a big beautiful country with (even though they wont admit it) a deep and interesting history that predates the 1930's. It's nice to see not all Turks in Europe are clamouring for the Ottoman empire 2.0.
for me personally it is not about Germany or Turkey, both countries have their positives and negatives.Germany right now for example is too hung up on how "bad" the foreigners are (especially people from Syria and now Turkey)
The AfD together with the NPD are really banging the drum and unfortunately too many people are just jumping on the bangwagon.
Germany has been down this road before, it is not about Genocide, just starting to generalise in regards to a whole county is enough to intoxicate everything.
The problem is that too many were let in too quickly and agencies are overwhelmed. German society is also not well-equipped to deal with the bad eggs. People here tend to have an inherent trust of others in many areas; I suspect that will change.
jsf said:
Turkeys membership of NATO is at risk, if he goes full on dictator then I cant see how Turkey can remain a member, which is only going to make the region even more unstable.
The only way this can stop is if the people of Turkey do something about it, or he dies, the first is not looking likely.
Turkey has a huge army and is a powerful Euro-Mideast counterweight to Russia. It will stay in Nato.The only way this can stop is if the people of Turkey do something about it, or he dies, the first is not looking likely.
Don't think Erdogan is as mental as the Western media make out. Was in Izmir for business a few weeks ago and most of the biz-minded locals are carrying on "business as normal". GDP growth is currently well above average and things are humming along nicely, away from the (somewhat nasty) politics. Indeed, Q4 2016 growth in Turkey far exceeded that of the EU and UK.
Yipper said:
Turkey has a huge army and is a powerful Euro-Mideast counterweight to Russia. It will stay in Nato.
Don't think Erdogan is as mental as the Western media make out. Was in Izmir for business a few weeks ago and most of the biz-minded locals are carrying on "business as normal". GDP growth is currently well above average and things are humming along nicely, away from the (somewhat nasty) politics. Indeed, Q4 2016 growth in Turkey far exceeded that of the EU and UK.
He's basically a Turkish Putin as far as I can tell. Has no ideology except staying in power forever and the conservatives in his country give hin the means to do so.Don't think Erdogan is as mental as the Western media make out. Was in Izmir for business a few weeks ago and most of the biz-minded locals are carrying on "business as normal". GDP growth is currently well above average and things are humming along nicely, away from the (somewhat nasty) politics. Indeed, Q4 2016 growth in Turkey far exceeded that of the EU and UK.
It's just a shame to see a secular democracy fall to the biggest minority.
glazbagun said:
Yipper said:
Turkey has a huge army and is a powerful Euro-Mideast counterweight to Russia. It will stay in Nato.
Don't think Erdogan is as mental as the Western media make out. Was in Izmir for business a few weeks ago and most of the biz-minded locals are carrying on "business as normal". GDP growth is currently well above average and things are humming along nicely, away from the (somewhat nasty) politics. Indeed, Q4 2016 growth in Turkey far exceeded that of the EU and UK.
He's basically a Turkish Putin as far as I can tell. Has no ideology except staying in power forever and the conservatives in his country give hin the means to do so.Don't think Erdogan is as mental as the Western media make out. Was in Izmir for business a few weeks ago and most of the biz-minded locals are carrying on "business as normal". GDP growth is currently well above average and things are humming along nicely, away from the (somewhat nasty) politics. Indeed, Q4 2016 growth in Turkey far exceeded that of the EU and UK.
It's just a shame to see a secular democracy fall to the biggest minority.
Turkey has always been prone to purges and political turmoil. It is, to some degree, part of the culture. The latest shenanigans are nothing new. Locals are not taking anywhere near as much notice of everything as the West thinks they are. Most people on the ground are just shrugging and getting on with things (as reflected by Turkey's rapid +4% QoQ GDP growth, much faster than Britain's +1%). There is little or no panic. Most folks I spoke with over several days thought the slight swing to Islam will not last and the population will eventually push back toward secularism (as Ataturk wanted).
Yipper said:
Turkey has always been prone to purges and political turmoil. It is, to some degree, part of the culture. The latest shenanigans are nothing new. Locals are not taking anywhere near as much notice of everything as the West thinks they are. Most people on the ground are just shrugging and getting on with things (as reflected by Turkey's rapid +4% QoQ GDP growth, much faster than Britain's +1%). There is little or no panic. Most folks I spoke with over several days thought the slight swing to Islam will not last and the population will eventually push back toward secularism (as Ataturk wanted).
I hope you are right. Most of my Turkish friends are "getting on with life" but to say that they are not concerned would be an over statement. A couple of the dual nationals have "escape" plans underway.Yipper said:
Again, it is important to distinguish between Western liberal handwringing and propaganda and the reality on the ground.
Turkey has always been prone to purges and political turmoil. It is, to some degree, part of the culture. The latest shenanigans are nothing new. Locals are not taking anywhere near as much notice of everything as the West thinks they are. Most people on the ground are just shrugging and getting on with things (as reflected by Turkey's rapid +4% QoQ GDP growth, much faster than Britain's +1%). There is little or no panic. Most folks I spoke with over several days thought the slight swing to Islam will not last and the population will eventually push back toward secularism (as Ataturk wanted).
But it's 2017, Turkey is (was) a modern forward looking country, is (was) a prospective member of the EU, and is a member of NATO.Turkey has always been prone to purges and political turmoil. It is, to some degree, part of the culture. The latest shenanigans are nothing new. Locals are not taking anywhere near as much notice of everything as the West thinks they are. Most people on the ground are just shrugging and getting on with things (as reflected by Turkey's rapid +4% QoQ GDP growth, much faster than Britain's +1%). There is little or no panic. Most folks I spoke with over several days thought the slight swing to Islam will not last and the population will eventually push back toward secularism (as Ataturk wanted).
To say the locals aren't taking anywhere near as much notice as we think they are is underselling it. Try and tell the 70,000 + and counting that have been arrested since the 'coup'.
The folks you spoke to think it'll eventually swing back towards secularism - not without a civil war it won't, not while this guy's in charge.
This is far more than 'political turmoil' - it is religious. We all know where that leads in that part of the world.
Erdogan's bodyguards start beating up protesters in Washington DC.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CcuCZemRo84
https://mobile.twitter.com/VOATurkish/status/86527...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/17/erdo...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CcuCZemRo84
https://mobile.twitter.com/VOATurkish/status/86527...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/17/erdo...
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