How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 7)
Discussion
wiggy001 said:
You don't have to have suffered direct harm personally to dislike something.
How about despising the EU because of...
...it's handling of the migrant crisis (and all the knock-on effects of that across Europe)?
...the way it has ridden roughshod over democracy in Italy
...and over any other country that dares question it (Ireland (twice), Netherlands, France...)
...the way it has condemned Greece to financial crisis
...the way it has overseen massive youth unemployment across southern europe
...the way it is pursuing a policy of closer fiscal and military union despite the former being foolhardy, the latter being potentially dangerous and both being unpopular
...the way it's arrogance will not allow it to reform despite the call for reform getting louder by the day
There are many reasons to despise the EU. But I'm sure you know that already...
I don't, because I don't despise the EU.How about despising the EU because of...
...it's handling of the migrant crisis (and all the knock-on effects of that across Europe)?
...the way it has ridden roughshod over democracy in Italy
...and over any other country that dares question it (Ireland (twice), Netherlands, France...)
...the way it has condemned Greece to financial crisis
...the way it has overseen massive youth unemployment across southern europe
...the way it is pursuing a policy of closer fiscal and military union despite the former being foolhardy, the latter being potentially dangerous and both being unpopular
...the way it's arrogance will not allow it to reform despite the call for reform getting louder by the day
There are many reasons to despise the EU. But I'm sure you know that already...
Ridgemont said:
mx5nut said:
ITP said:
Luckily remain lost, but sadly I fear remain will ‘win’ in the end because of our remainer House of Parliament.
You are aware that those MPs are elected, right? If we have a Remainer HOP, it was the will of the people and you should respect democracy.Of all the Leaver inconsistencies, the annoyance that our parliament might exercise the sovereignty they insisted they should have is probably the best.
Parliament agreed to allow the populace to decide. You seem to have forgotten.
Remember how much you guys used to love the idea of parliamentary sovereignty before you found out what it meant?
Peston is spot on (this time)
Peston said:
If we knew what kind of commercial and security relationship we would ultimately have with the EU, the backstop would not be the problem it is: there would be widespread confidence on both sides of the channel that if the backstop were used at all, it would be of desperately short duration, for the simple reason that there would be a high degree of certainty about post-Brexit negotiations to put in place alternative trading arrangements that would make the backstop wholly redundant.
But as a senior official from an EU government says, ‘given principles and red lines on both sides, it is difficult to see what future relationship we could ever agree on.’
That is why it is NOT barking mad to suggest that the backstop could stay in force till after we’re all pushing up the daisies.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/theresa-mays-single-most-important-strategic-mistake/But as a senior official from an EU government says, ‘given principles and red lines on both sides, it is difficult to see what future relationship we could ever agree on.’
That is why it is NOT barking mad to suggest that the backstop could stay in force till after we’re all pushing up the daisies.
My favourite part of the Brexiters kicking and screaming about TM's deal and insisting that their MP vote it down at all costs is how they were, only months ago, pushing the idea that the government should be free to implement any deal they liked without any oversight at all from parliament - and throwing abuse at Gina Miller for daring to suggest otherwise...
digimeistter said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't "the backstop" just kicking the Irish border "problem" down the road?
It hasn't been solved in two years and the EU could keep saying "non" ad infinitum, no matter what is suggested, hence keeping us under their legislation forever ( not withstanding a united Ireland or collapse of the EU)
Well, Ireland left the Union in 1921 and a bi-lateral agreement came into placed between Uk and ROI It hasn't been solved in two years and the EU could keep saying "non" ad infinitum, no matter what is suggested, hence keeping us under their legislation forever ( not withstanding a united Ireland or collapse of the EU)
Two separate countries
No hard border
ROI joined EU in 1973 .. As did the UK
No hard border
Uk leaves EU 2019
Situation reverts to pre -1973 and bi-lateral 1922 agreement which is still in place, both Uk and ROI categorically state -No hard border
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Hmm.. so you have the vote and then you decide how you're going to deliver it.
What if some people think the way Teresa May decided to deliver it isn't what they had in mind?
We keep being told there's been no new information since the vote so suck it up.
You've just said we didn't know how we were going to implement Brexit until after the vote.
To me that's new information.
How we implement leaving the EU is irrelevant. Remain think they have been clever by dividing Brexit up into hard, soft, deal or no deal and then to demonise the option they didn't like in an effort to "call the whole thing off" It was always Leave there were not and never will be different types of leave. Leaving the EU was always the bottom line, People hoped that a withdrawal deal would be agreed that would benefit both sides but it seems that wasn't possible and it ended up being worse than leaving or staying as it was neither. It was hoped in addition that a FTA would be agreed before we left but that was also impossible as the EU would not negotiate it. What if some people think the way Teresa May decided to deliver it isn't what they had in mind?
We keep being told there's been no new information since the vote so suck it up.
You've just said we didn't know how we were going to implement Brexit until after the vote.
To me that's new information.
The only option now is to leave on the 29th March and hope that once we have left the EU will want to agree an FTA that is of equal benefit to both sides. If I were the EU I would certainly want a trade agreement with a huge, sophisticated economy that was right on my doorstep. Can you suggest one reason why they wouldn't want one?
Earthdweller said:
digimeistter said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't "the backstop" just kicking the Irish border "problem" down the road?
It hasn't been solved in two years and the EU could keep saying "non" ad infinitum, no matter what is suggested, hence keeping us under their legislation forever ( not withstanding a united Ireland or collapse of the EU)
Well, Ireland left the Union in 1921 and a bi-lateral agreement came into placed between Uk and ROI It hasn't been solved in two years and the EU could keep saying "non" ad infinitum, no matter what is suggested, hence keeping us under their legislation forever ( not withstanding a united Ireland or collapse of the EU)
Two separate countries
No hard border
ROI joined EU in 1973 .. As did the UK
No hard border
Uk leaves EU 2019
Situation reverts to pre -1973 and bi-lateral 1922 agreement which is still in place, both Uk and ROI categorically state -No hard border
Vanden Saab said:
How we implement leaving the EU is irrelevant. Remain think they have been clever by dividing Brexit up into hard, soft, deal or no deal and then to demonise the option they didn't like in an effort to "call the whole thing off" It was always Leave there were not and never will be different types of leave. Leaving the EU was always the bottom line, People hoped that a withdrawal deal would be agreed that would benefit both sides but it seems that wasn't possible and it ended up being worse than leaving or staying as it was neither. It was hoped in addition that a FTA would be agreed before we left but that was also impossible as the EU would not negotiate it.
The only option now is to leave on the 29th March and hope that once we have left the EU will want to agree an FTA that is of equal benefit to both sides. If I were the EU I would certainly want a trade agreement with a huge, sophisticated economy that was right on my doorstep. Can you suggest one reason why they wouldn't want one?
They do, and offered it from day one.The only option now is to leave on the 29th March and hope that once we have left the EU will want to agree an FTA that is of equal benefit to both sides. If I were the EU I would certainly want a trade agreement with a huge, sophisticated economy that was right on my doorstep. Can you suggest one reason why they wouldn't want one?
It was the UK (May) that rubbished that and wanted something special, which the EU have conceded to.
If you don't like what's on offer blame the UK.
loafer123 said:
V8 Fettler said:
The three current options should have been set out before the referendum, this would have permitted voters to have made an informed decision.
Great idea! /sSplit the leave vote and ignore democracy.
Earthdweller said:
Ireland
No hard border
No hard border
No hard border
You must be too young to remember what it used to be like.No hard border
No hard border
No hard border
Earthdweller said:
Situation reverts to pre -1973
The world, including Ireland, has moved on from the 70s, despite extreme Brexiters/Corbyn supporters trying to take us back there.
V8 Fettler said:
loafer123 said:
V8 Fettler said:
The three current options should have been set out before the referendum, this would have permitted voters to have made an informed decision.
Great idea! /sSplit the leave vote and ignore democracy.
Vanden Saab said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Hmm.. so you have the vote and then you decide how you're going to deliver it.
What if some people think the way Teresa May decided to deliver it isn't what they had in mind?
We keep being told there's been no new information since the vote so suck it up.
You've just said we didn't know how we were going to implement Brexit until after the vote.
To me that's new information.
How we implement leaving the EU is irrelevant. Remain think they have been clever by dividing Brexit up into hard, soft, deal or no deal and then to demonise the option they didn't like in an effort to "call the whole thing off" It was always Leave there were not and never will be different types of leave. Leaving the EU was always the bottom line, People hoped that a withdrawal deal would be agreed that would benefit both sides but it seems that wasn't possible and it ended up being worse than leaving or staying as it was neither. It was hoped in addition that a FTA would be agreed before we left but that was also impossible as the EU would not negotiate it. What if some people think the way Teresa May decided to deliver it isn't what they had in mind?
We keep being told there's been no new information since the vote so suck it up.
You've just said we didn't know how we were going to implement Brexit until after the vote.
To me that's new information.
The only option now is to leave on the 29th March and hope that once we have left the EU will want to agree an FTA that is of equal benefit to both sides. If I were the EU I would certainly want a trade agreement with a huge, sophisticated economy that was right on my doorstep. Can you suggest one reason why they wouldn't want one?
There are literally tens if not hundreds of thousands of jobs at stake and to dismiss all of those concerns with "It was always Leave there were not and never will be different types of leave." is astounding when the entire campaign was run on the premise we could leave and have the moon on the stick because of BMWs and Prosecco.
And if you want to know why the EU haven't come running to sign a trade agreement on our terms, maybe write and ask Liam fox, because it was going to be the “easiest in human history” apparently.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Vanden Saab said:
How we implement leaving the EU is irrelevant. Remain think they have been clever by dividing Brexit up into hard, soft, deal or no deal and then to demonise the option they didn't like in an effort to "call the whole thing off" It was always Leave there were not and never will be different types of leave. Leaving the EU was always the bottom line, People hoped that a withdrawal deal would be agreed that would benefit both sides but it seems that wasn't possible and it ended up being worse than leaving or staying as it was neither. It was hoped in addition that a FTA would be agreed before we left but that was also impossible as the EU would not negotiate it.
The only option now is to leave on the 29th March and hope that once we have left the EU will want to agree an FTA that is of equal benefit to both sides. If I were the EU I would certainly want a trade agreement with a huge, sophisticated economy that was right on my doorstep. Can you suggest one reason why they wouldn't want one?
They do, and offered it from day one.The only option now is to leave on the 29th March and hope that once we have left the EU will want to agree an FTA that is of equal benefit to both sides. If I were the EU I would certainly want a trade agreement with a huge, sophisticated economy that was right on my doorstep. Can you suggest one reason why they wouldn't want one?
It was the UK (May) that rubbished that and wanted something special, which the EU have conceded to.
If you don't like what's on offer blame the UK.
digimeistter said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't "the backstop" just kicking the Irish border "problem" down the road?
It hasn't been solved in two years and the EU could keep saying "non" ad infinitum, no matter what is suggested, hence keeping us under their legislation forever ( not withstanding a united Ireland or collapse of the EU)
There is no Irish border issue. It's a negotiation construct.It hasn't been solved in two years and the EU could keep saying "non" ad infinitum, no matter what is suggested, hence keeping us under their legislation forever ( not withstanding a united Ireland or collapse of the EU)
All sides have said there will be no hard border under any circumstances.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: And if you want to know why the EU haven't come running to sign a trade agreement on our terms, maybe write and ask Liam fox, because it was going to be the “easiest in human history” apparently.
How do you know it won't be?We know they can't negotiate while we are members but the outline has already been done and in a very short time.
Teresa May got that out of them against their will
Her deal is the way forward
mx5nut said:
They'd have to stop pretending that "the will of the people" was for an extreme version of Brexit - or worse, that there wasn't a public appetite for Brexit at all, any more.
And there you go again, there is no extreme version of Brexit there is only leaving the EU. A majority of the public who voted ticked leave. So there obviously was a public appetite to leave.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff