Jeremy Corbyn (Vol. 4)

[jonby]

Burwood said:

oop north said:

Yikes!

The mistakes Labour made were glaring. I would think it a relatively simply fix if they can decouple from the Momentum loons

1. Ruthless purge of anything AS. No excuses. Get rid of them and stop talking about Palestine/Israel. Focus on domestic issues-we have plenty
2. Appoint a less polarising leader. One who doesn't have so much baggage.
3. Stop weaponising the NHS. The secret papers, sell the NHS was laughable and smacked of desperation. They could have poleaxed the Conservatives with facts on under spending and underperformance.
4. Their tax policy on Capital Gains attacked pensioners and anyone with a pension. Bad move.
5. Take a position and stick to it. Fence sitting is for wimps.The same with 'we hate it just because Tory'.
6. Attacking the US constantly is a net vote loser as most want a good relationship with our biggest ally. Stop attacking nato and being soft on the human rights of criminals.
7. labour immigration policy cost them dearly-the vast majority want measured immigration. We can't afford to house, care, pay for all of them.
8. Reign in the free stuff. Waspi lost them votes. The 20B tree planting was a joke of an idea

labour made too many promises in the manifesto. It read as a fantasy and no credible. The real question is, can they move away from the loon factor. Probably not. There's going to be a st storm internally for some time to come.

But as you say, that means decoupling from momentum. How does that happen when so many of the members, particularly the new members, are fans ?

Aaron Bastani tweeted yesterday "I want Momentum out of Labour" translated = I want 90% of activists under 45 out of Labour

He's a despicable racist scumbag, but in this respect he is of course quite right

That is labour's problem in a nutshell - a disconnect between the active members and the wider pool of historic voters

[Flumpo]

AstonZagato said:

Alan Johnson, the Labour grandee, tearing into Jon Lansman, leader of Momentum.

"Unlike Jon, I don't live in London. I live in Yorkshire.
"I live in a working class community, and I have known Jon for many years now - he's been around from the Bennite days.
"And I'm afraid the working class have always been a big disappointment for Jon and his cult.
"Corbyn was a disaster on the doorstep. Everyone knew that he couldn't lead the working class out of paper bag."
...
"The cultural betrayal goes on."
...
"I want them out of the Party. I want them gone. Go back to your student politics and your left wing..."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/alan-john...

Spot on.

I think this sums up the problem with labour being so out of touch. We keep hearing about the working class north.

The thing that needs explaining to the London bubble is that the north isn’t their idea of 1970s working class ignorants.

The people who have gone from red to blue in the north will in no way identify as ‘working class’.

Someone earning £30k in Darlington say, will consider themselves firmly in the middle class.

That wage of will see them living a far higher standard of living than someone on £65k inside the m25.

Labour have lost the northern working class vote, as it doesn’t exist anymore. But that won’t stop us being told that these poor working class types have ignorantly voting for the evil tories.

The memory of the mines has faded. Now the tribal voting has been broken it’s going to be an interesting future.

[Fundoreen]

this was obviously the brexit election. The tories won by miles while not showing their faces anywhere for scrutiny.
In a few years time when the hardship happens for all the mugs that thought it would be better they will return to voting labour
as we will be out already and it wont be an issue for them.
Someone with a similar vision to corbyn will be the leader by then.
We dont need another closet tory party.

[Dont like rolls]

Fundoreen said:

this was obviously the brexit election. The tories won by miles while not showing their faces anywhere for scrutiny.
In a few years time when the hardship happens for all the mugs that thought it would be better they will return to voting labour
as we will be out already and it wont be an issue for them.
Someone with a similar vision to corbyn will be the leader by then.
We dont need another closet tory party.

Your bubble needs popping

If you don't need a closet Tory and not many want a rabid Marxist nor a whimpering Lib-Dem, what is it you do want ?

Edited by Dont like rolls on Friday 13th December 13:09

[petemurphy]

Burwood said:

The mistakes Labour made were glaring. I would think it a relatively simply fix if they can decouple from the Momentum loons

1. Ruthless purge of anything AS. No excuses. Get rid of them and stop talking about Palestine/Israel. Focus on domestic issues-we have plenty
2. Appoint a less polarising leader. One who doesn't have so much baggage.
3. Stop weaponising the NHS. The secret papers, sell the NHS was laughable and smacked of desperation. They could have poleaxed the Conservatives with facts on under spending and underperformance.
4. Their tax policy on Capital Gains attacked pensioners and anyone with a pension. Bad move.
5. Take a position and stick to it. Fence sitting is for wimps.The same with 'we hate it just because Tory'.
6. Attacking the US constantly is a net vote loser as most want a good relationship with our biggest ally. Stop attacking nato and being soft on the human rights of criminals.
7. labour immigration policy cost them dearly-the vast majority want measured immigration. We can't afford to house, care, pay for all of them.
8. Reign in the free stuff. Waspi lost them votes. The 20B tree planting was a joke of an idea

labour made too many promises in the manifesto. It read as a fantasy and no credible. The real question is, can they move away from the loon factor. Probably not. There's going to be a st storm internally for some time to come.

all very true - main one for me was the fact they were going to increase inheritance tax they need to rethink that

[dieselgrunt]

he's just been on the news. Everyone's fault but his, no blame to be put on his shoulders. He accepts no responsibility personally for this catastrophe.

[P5BNij]

Dont like rolls said:

Fundoreen said:

this was obviously the brexit election. The tories won by miles while not showing their faces anywhere for scrutiny.
In a few years time when the hardship happens for all the mugs that thought it would be better they will return to voting labour
as we will be out already and it wont be an issue for them.
Someone with a similar vision to corbyn will be the leader by then.
We dont need another closet tory party.

Your bubble needs popping

The denial is palpable.

[Digga]

P5BNij said:

Dont like rolls said:

Fundoreen said:

this was obviously the brexit election. The tories won by miles while not showing their faces anywhere for scrutiny.
In a few years time when the hardship happens for all the mugs that thought it would be better they will return to voting labour
as we will be out already and it wont be an issue for them.
Someone with a similar vision to corbyn will be the leader by then.
We dont need another closet tory party.

Your bubble needs popping

The denial is palpable.

Yes, they are not quick learners, are they?

A seismic change:


Also, just because it made me laugh:

[Dont like rolls]

P5BNij said:

The denial is palpable.

Sorry, added a late edit...

Errr, what denial and of what ?

[Mothersruin]

dieselgrunt said:

he's just been on the news. Everyone's fault but his, no blame to be put on his shoulders. He accepts no responsibility personally for this catastrophe.

On Sky now, completely and utterly deluded and completely out of touch.

Also provingb that he's nothing more than a common room rabble rouser.

[Mothersruin]

Digga said:

Also, just because it made me laugh:

[P5BNij]

Dont like rolls said:

P5BNij said:

The denial is palpable.

Sorry, added a late edit...

Errr, what denial and of what ?

That Fundoreen is indeed living in a bubble just as you said in your reply - I'm seeing this almost everywhere else from Labour's side, the just don't seem to be able to accept that Corbyn's toxicity is part of the problem, not just Brexit

[Dont like rolls]

P5BNij said:

That Fundoreen is indeed living in a bubble just as you said in your reply - I'm seeing this almost everywhere else from Labour's side, the just don't seem to be able to accept that Corbyn's toxicity is part of the problem, not just Brexit

~ yep, it is dripping from eminences uttered by Corbyn and Mad Red John Mac

[R Mutt]

All blaming Brexit. Well that could explain a quarter of dissatisfied Labour voters, assuming all would feel so betrayed by Corbyn's stance or lack of, to vote for their arch enemies.

More likely though it's down to those who actually work and have failed to be deceived by the myth of the party looking out for them, having been thus far satisfactorily treated by the NHS and other public services in return for their fair tax contributions, and failed to be won over by the freebies which would benefit others more.

It is the worst off who will be hit the hardest, however that's more likely those who rely on outright charity rather than tax credits but there's always that juggle between those losing and gaining benefit even when that results in a fairer system.

[A Winner Is You]

I think we should take a moment to appreciate his (unintentional) finest hour

https://twitter.com/Bmac0507/status/12052518021043...

[kev1974]

A Winner Is You said:

I think we should take a moment to appreciate his (unintentional) finest hour

https://twitter.com/Bmac0507/status/12052518021043...

That never gets old

[Neil1b24]

Flumpo said:

AstonZagato said:

Alan Johnson, the Labour grandee, tearing into Jon Lansman, leader of Momentum.

"Unlike Jon, I don't live in London. I live in Yorkshire.
"I live in a working class community, and I have known Jon for many years now - he's been around from the Bennite days.
"And I'm afraid the working class have always been a big disappointment for Jon and his cult.
"Corbyn was a disaster on the doorstep. Everyone knew that he couldn't lead the working class out of paper bag."
...
"The cultural betrayal goes on."
...
"I want them out of the Party. I want them gone. Go back to your student politics and your left wing..."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/alan-john...

Spot on.

I think this sums up the problem with labour being so out of touch. We keep hearing about the working class north.

The thing that needs explaining to the London bubble is that the north isn’t their idea of 1970s working class ignorants.

The people who have gone from red to blue in the north will in no way identify as ‘working class’.

Someone earning £30k in Darlington say, will consider themselves firmly in the middle class.

That wage of will see them living a far higher standard of living than someone on £65k inside the m25.

Labour have lost the northern working class vote, as it doesn’t exist anymore. But that won’t stop us being told that these poor working class types have ignorantly voting for the evil tories.

The memory of the mines has faded. Now the tribal voting has been broken it’s going to be an interesting future.

Spot on this and would like to see some more detailed analysis.

My conclusion is that some (but not all) of these ex-industrial northern towns and cities are emerging as or aspiring to be middle class as the service sector has invested in cheaper labour and plentiful talent from local unis.

Less union involvement in these industries only serves to further weaken historical labour influence.

This is slowly changing voter demographics, in some cases enough to overcome the legacy of Thatcher in the 80’s. It’s lazy just to blame Brexit.

The tories saw this new northern “Basildon man” and did a great job of cutting through.

As it currently stands, the Labour Party can neither comprehend or appeal to a group they still think are stood on a picket line. The north is moving on but they are stuck fighting the last war.

[anonymous-user]

I suppose with labour, people are being born and growing up in tradition labour areas who weren’t actually influenced by the closing of industry or whatever made them labour strongholds.

Plus labour has become a bit sneery of the working class supporters worried about immigration and moved more towards the student activist types for support.

The labour voters going to the conservatives are a bit like the conservatives that went to UKIP or the Brexit party. They can probably be lured back but labour need to recognise why they’ve switched team. They just want a party that looks out for them and they can identify with, that’s not momentum’s labour.

[anonymous-user]

A Winner Is You said:

I think we should take a moment to appreciate his (unintentional) finest hour

https://twitter.com/Bmac0507/status/12052518021043...

[AstonZagato]

P5BNij said:

That Fundoreen is indeed living in a bubble just as you said in your reply - I'm seeing this almost everywhere else from Labour's side, the just don't seem to be able to accept that Corbyn's toxicity is part of the problem, not just Brexit

I slightly disagree - it is not Corbyn's toxicity, it is the toxicity of Corbynism.

It is interesting that so few Labour activists can see that it was not just Brexit. It was not even the additional downside of a leader with a very dodgy past. This defeat was rooted the policies they were trying to sell that make no sense in their traditional strongholds. Brexit merely shone a light on the divide (well, yawning gulf) that has opened up between the traditional Labour voter and the current policies of their old party. These policies might get traction amongst the activists in the Party but the wider British people want little or nothing to do with them.

I don't think the Party will (or even can) learn from this. After Foot, we had to go through the Kinnock reforms before we got to an electable Labour Party. I don't think Labour will do that again, because of the scarring from the Blair years. I therefore don't think we will get new New Labour - but the Party needs to reform if it wants power in the next decade.