Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 2]

[Puggit]

Irish said:

HBATs? Something coined by Driller I think but please explain!

I've been following various EU threads and I don't even know what it means

[Andrew[MG]]

Maybe LENR can save science and the world? http://pesn.com/2012/04/26/9602081_LENR-to-Market_...

[GBB]

davepoth said:

Europe and then the middle east succumbed to barbarism.

Me thinks we are due a similar backwards step.

[Steffan]

Irish said:

HBATs? Something coined by Driller I think but please explain!

Original quote from Driller:

"Steffan, what about "PDs" (potential defaulters)?

Or even the HBATs
(hanging by a thread )"

Seemed reasonably apt and uncontentious so I adopted it. It stuck!

Always ready to take advice, me!

[Ozzie Osmond]

"Heavy use of hallucinogenic drugs between 1967 and 1969 in now way affected my research and philosophy."

And what exactly are you researching at the moment Professor Dexter?

"Space-bats"

Space bats?

"You bet your ass"

[Driller]

[Andy Zarse]

Ozzie Osmond said:

"Heavy use of hallucinogenic drugs between 1967 and 1969 in now way affected my research and philosophy."

And what exactly are you researching at the moment Professor Dexter?

"Space-bats"

Space bats?

"You bet your ass"

http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=204&t=1050035&mid=0&i=0&nmt=The+Fast+Show+is+back+%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21&mid=0

[DJRC]

turbobloke said:

DJRC said:

turbobloke said:

DJRC said:

Globs said:

turbobloke said:

Another alternative criticism is that, for a supposedly leading scientific organisation, the report is almost entirely about politics. It says we need to redistribute wealth and accept a significant drop in our quality of life not just to feed the redistribution but for reasons that are quasi-religious in the Gaia sense. The redistribution mechanism that the Royal Sorcery favours uses climate myths; as to the drop in consumption and associated quality of life decline, it's happening anyway without scientists playing at politics.

Yes, there is so much work to be done to interest young people in science - it's depressing to see the RS mired in pseudo science and politics.

Not really. Its quite easy to interest them, talk to them and engage with them about science and engineering.

At a corporate level there is obviously a need to remain superficially and unpollutedly open and scientific but at grass roots level it's not as easy as you may think, when did you last try on a personal level? With former colleagues, associates, even a couple of people I could once call friends in the RS and employed by it, they have become uncommunicative in the extreme, not replying at all on topical 'science' matters - I refer of course to the junkscience of global warming which is the RS's preferred route to global redistribution of wealth. No names no pack drill but it's real enough.

On a very regular basis. Ive done the recruiting work for SBAC at graduate events. Ive been a regular part of Young Enterprise schemes as a Mentor and do Ambassador in Schools programme. Large parts of my family are in the teaching game and Im shown off on a regular basis to talk about stuff. The last part especially is revealing about the attitudes of school kids and the "yoof of today" as they love to discuss and ask questions about the programmes I have been involved with. The adults love to hype them upto to them as they are high profile and "cool" and the kids always really engage with that. The only person who is reticient is me because I hate talking about my work.

Its very very easy to engage kids, yoofs and adults of all ages in science and engineering. You just have to understand the angle you want to come from. I would never ever discuss the RS or what they thought for one, its simple not relevent. To anybody. If you want to engage with people you have to keep things relevent.

What's that got to do with engaging the RS and its corporate gaia theologians? Typical internet - you were referring to the yoof mention in Globs reply, whereas it was originally all about the RS and that was my entire focus.

I replied specifically to Globs post. Not to yours or the other chap. You then replied to my post, stating not about the corporate but about down at the grassroots. I then replied to you, but deliberately referencing across all the age groups, to make my point relevent to Glob's observation and yours. My point about never referencing the RS still stands and that goes at the Corporate and grassroots level. They and their views are simply not relevent. Nobody I know or in my industry would ever care one iota what the RS thought, at the corporate or personal level. As I said, they are not relevent.

[HundredthIdiot]

Yeah, but is the end nigh for the Euro?

[Irish]

HundredthIdiot said:

Yeah, but is the end nigh for the Euro?

It is all about Spain. TBTBR (too big too be rescued)


http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2012/04/26/growth-an...

[Andy Zarse]

Irish said:

It is all about Spain. TBTBR (too big too be rescued)


http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2012/04/26/growth-an...

McWilliams is pure Irish gold!

[Crafty_]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance...

6bn! how much have they lost on over the last 10 years ? amazing.

Looks like our little french friend got called out : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/dominique-strau...

[turbobloke]

The pain in Spain is looking worse. "One third of unemployed in the eurozone are Spanish as country's financial woes deepen...Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said the country faces a financial crisis of 'enormous magnitude'...Fears for Spain's 'imploding' economy grew yesterday..."

Click

[powerstroke]

Can anyone tell me how so much debt could have been run up?? surely there are only so many dead end motorways and unconected bridges that could have been built
and one leged lesbian single mother dance troupes to sponsor !!!

[bosscerbera]

powerstroke said:

Can anyone tell me how so much debt could have been run up?? surely there are only so many dead end motorways and unconected bridges that could have been built
and one leged lesbian single mother dance troupes to sponsor !!!

Spending more than earning ....achieved through borrowing.

More people doing less, with standards of living rising ....achieved through borrowing.

It is important to understand just how fast the global body of consumers is growing.



It means that when you read history you can put in context how many - or how few by today's standards - people were supposed to be governed/managed by the idea of the time. Look also at golden eras, or eras of great achievement and/or derring-do against that graph - American independence, the rise and fall of the various european empires (the British, the French, the German, the Dutch, the Belgian, the Spanish, the Portuguese....). Aside from the super-productive Germans, notice how all the former empire operators - who once operated in a world of few people and short life expectancy - are now broke. For instance, it's not that long ago that the Belgian king was borrowing from merchants - private individuals - to conquer the Congo.

Notice also that the UN graph, dated 1998, predicted 7 billion by 2013. It happened in 2011 - the UN was out by almost 20% in a forecast period of only 12 years.

Most 'developed' countries are woefully unproductive yet their developed status is measured by their consumption. If you understand the English language, which I would argue has precedence over economic/political claptrap, then the fragility of our current predicament should be easy to understand.

[hornet]

davepoth said:

Problem is, there hasn't really been enough civilisation to work out whether the concept holds true. What can be shown quite well is that civilisation has advanced when the communication infrastructure improved - people talking to people is what made the great leaps. Huge progress was made by the Romans and the Persians, incidentally the first civilisations to institute postal services of some kind, and then that fell back as Europe and then the middle east succumbed to barbarism. As Europe came out of the dark ages, communication improved - but once the telegraph was invented and information could go around the world in a day, everything went mental.

Right now it's possible for someone sat on the south pole to Tweet. We've come a long way.

Hadn't thought about it from the communication angle, but makes a great deal of sense. The faster an idea travels, the more eyes see it, the more development it has. And of course the more we take the idea for granted. Was only about 20 years ago that I was trading underground music with people all over the world, and would excitedly wait for a package of obscure Brazilian Black Metal tapes to land on my doormat. Now it's all just a click away and taken completely for granted. Furthering the theory then, without holding up the Occupy movement as the answer, do we think that sort of "street level" communication of ideas is going to spawn the next development, or will the powers that be push back so hard it'll get crushed?

[davepoth]

hornet said:

Hadn't thought about it from the communication angle, but makes a great deal of sense. The faster an idea travels, the more eyes see it, the more development it has. And of course the more we take the idea for granted. Was only about 20 years ago that I was trading underground music with people all over the world, and would excitedly wait for a package of obscure Brazilian Black Metal tapes to land on my doormat. Now it's all just a click away and taken completely for granted. Furthering the theory then, without holding up the Occupy movement as the answer, do we think that sort of "street level" communication of ideas is going to spawn the next development, or will the powers that be push back so hard it'll get crushed?

What "Occupy" showed was that the internet can be used to organise a massive movement without a centralised structure. You could say the same thing happened with the riots last summer.

Huge income inequality, falling living standards, and mass youth unemployment has always been dangerous; but combined with the extremely easy communication we have these days, it's a potential powder keg. Spain looks to be very close to breaking point.

[bosscerbera]

davepoth said:

What "Occupy" showed was that the internet can be used to organise a massive movement without a centralised structure. You could say the same thing happened with the riots last summer.

Which is why the bogeyman of terrorism - in particular decentralised "al-Qaeda" - is used to push through surveillance measures.

davepoth said:

Huge income inequality, falling living standards, and mass youth unemployment has always been dangerous; but combined with the extremely easy communication we have these days, it's a potential powder keg. Spain looks to be very close to breaking point.

Agreed.

Steffan gets heat for Cassandra-ing but the same can be levelled at The Economist which, for every one of the PIIGS and now France, has said the same: the collapse of [insert HBAT of choice] will mean the end of the Euro. It's in today's leader about Hollande...

[Globs]

DJRC said:

Not really. Its quite easy to interest them, talk to them and engage with them about science and engineering.

No you completely miss the point. The majority of youth watch the X factor and Britain's got Talent, as for science- Rory McGrath's brought science to more young people via the media than the entire Royal Society.

[Steffan]

bosscerbera said:

davepoth said:

What "Occupy" showed was that the internet can be used to organise a massive movement without a centralised structure. You could say the same thing happened with the riots last summer.

Which is why the bogeyman of terrorism - in particular decentralised "al-Qaeda" - is used to push through surveillance measures.

davepoth said:

Huge income inequality, falling living standards, and mass youth unemployment has always been dangerous; but combined with the extremely easy communication we have these days, it's a potential powder keg. Spain looks to be very close to breaking point.

Agreed.

Steffan gets heat for Cassandra-ing but the same can be levelled at The Economist which, for every one of the PIIGS and now France, has said the same: the collapse of [insert HBAT of choice] will mean the end of the Euro. It's in today's leader about Hollande...

I appreciate the thoughts.

In all honestly the World population problem is way beyond my even attempting prediction.

One serious lesson over the last fifteen years for me has been the rise and crowning of self interested, self serving, salesmen in sharp suits, finding Politics useful as a career. And a stepping stone to Statesmanship. And wealth.

I am old enough (just) to have some slight memories of the politics of the late 50,s and early 60's when giants like Aneurin Bevan, Ernest Bevin and RAB Butler and many other were leading politics with a genuine hope of improvement for the common man. I think these early leaders had some good ideas. And I believe they were genuinely committed to trying to improve society.

The current lot in Politics are utterly unprepared to actually do any real work. Grandstanding, World Summits, and huge parties for all the politicians and their ever growing entourage, have replaced any interest in actually facing the problems and admitting the difficulties in the future.

Frankly I think the entire sleazy dishonest manipulation of Merkozy and co is merely the tip of the Iceberg. Look at the extent of the NoW and phone hacking and email hacking scandals. Literally tens of thousands of illegal acts by far more newspapers and journalists than currently admitted and the Prime Minister is so puerile that he appointed the prime mover to run no 10.

And Cameron sees nothing wrong with that. Because it suits him. Tony Blair feels aggrieved at the fury of the public. Because it suits him. Fred Goodwin cannot understand the fuss. Because it suits him. It was only money. YES OURS!

I believe there will be a sudden drop of one of the HBAT's and the time is approaching fast. I entirely agree that the riots last year and the Occupy event clearly demonstrated how disaffected citizens can simply out manoeuvre and outrun the authorities. I cannot see that Spain has any real choice in falling out of the Euro and this control through disaffection and the internet may well play a part in coordinating disruption.

The Spanish debt is about 2.9 Billion (I think) and the EU rescue fund is around 1/2 a Billion. There really is no other way for this to be resolved. I do not want to see huge unrest and misery, but with 25% unemployment and rising and a country hopelessly overborrowed and insolvent, as Spain is, then, in the absence of a white night, which is clearly not going to happen, default is the only solution.

I personally think the Sarkozy non election, which I pray for nightly, which is bad for a committed Agnostic, may be the trigger. If not something else will turn up. The whole economics of the Eurozone is failing and I cannot see this lasting for long.

I just hope this will bring about the end of the Junkets and Jollies approach to politics and a return to serious efforts to correct clearly unsustainable spending by politicians. That would be a service to the country.