How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)

[anonymous-user]

saaby93 said:

es but when you get 'no deal' you then have to go to ' how to we solve the Irealnd border issue' we need a deal in place to solve it
and our big manufacturing is saying 'we need to keep a trade deal with the EU'
Both those lead to the deal on the table
At the moment the deal happens on March 29th same day as Brexit
Why go through months of turmoil to end up with the same thing?
I know - because we're British and won the war

It's the only way that some people will realise what the problems are. (They will then resign )

[Pan Pan Pan]

vonuber said:

pistonheads2018 said:

Which meant he would continue to campaign for a future referendum, not that he’d refuse to accept the results of this one.

So there's nothing wrong with people campaigning for a second referendum then is there.

Yes there is, whilst some are campaigning for a second referendum when the results of the first referendum have not yet been enacted.
If they do this, all it looks like, is that they didn't like the results of the first, and want yet another go at getting what `they' wanted, and on a raft of spurious, snow flake reasons for not getting their way in the first referendum.

[Crackie]

Coolbanana said:

If you honestly cannot understand that there is important new information that is indisputable to ponder, then you do yourself no favours and lend credence to an unfortunate Leaver stereotype.

If you honestly cannot understand that there is important new information that is indisputable to ponder, then you do yourself no favours and lend credence to an unfortunate Remainer stereotype.

Remainers appear to be happy with the cronyism of Selmayr's appointment, the proposed EU army, the developing T2 situation, Soros' interference, Carney's influence, political shifts in historically liberal countries such as Sweden, two thirds of EU citizens not being happy with the direction the EU is going, the unrest in Italy, the long term prospects for Greece, the disgusting misappropriation of funds, corruption and waste of EU funds in Spain...….on and on it goes.

If you honestly cannot understand that there is important new information that is indisputable to ponder, then you do yourself no favours and lend credence to an unfortunate Remainer stereotype. You'll struggle to drive that 992 if you're head stays buried in the sand.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/06/19/inenglish/152...

[anonymous-user]

pistonheads2018 said:

saaby93 said:

es but when you get 'no deal' you then have to go to ' how do we solve the Ireland border issue' we need a deal in place to solve it
and our big manufacturing is saying 'we need to keep a trade deal with the EU'
Both those lead to the deal on the table

At the moment the deal happens on March 29th same day as Brexit
Why go through months of turmoil to end up with the same thing?
I know - because we're British and won the war

Simply not true.

What is not true?

[saaby93]

pistonheads2018 said:

saaby93 said:

es but when you get 'no deal' you then have to go to ' how do we solve the Ireland border issue' we need a deal in place to solve it
and our big manufacturing is saying 'we need to keep a trade deal with the EU'
Both those lead to the deal on the table

At the moment the deal happens on March 29th same day as Brexit
Why go through months of turmoil to end up with the same thing?
I know - because we're British and won the war

Simply not true.

Sorry presumption on voting

Yes but when you get 'no deal' you then have to go to ' how do we solve the Ireland border issue' we need a deal in place to solve it
and our big manufacturing is saying 'we need to keep a trade deal with the EU'
Both those lead to the deal on the table

With Mays plan the deal happens on March 29th same day as Brexit
Why go through months of turmoil to end up with the same thing?
I know - because we're British and won the war

[don'tbesilly]

saaby93 said:

chow pan toon said:

Seeing as parliament is manifestly incapable of making a decision I think it is entirely reasonable to ask the country to do it for them. I find it odd that so many on the leave side seem so terrified of having another referendum, if the decision is the same then hard brexit it is.

no it isnt
If the decision is the same we still need to find a way of exiting, while keeping border arrangements.
A trade deal would be useful and should help with the border issue

i.e. back to the deal on the table

The deal that would have been voted down today had the decision not to to hold the vote today hadn't been taken yesterday.

The Deal that the EU has stated and repeatedly isn't open to any further negotiations.

The deal that May has said she will seek 'assurances' and 'reassurances' on without accepting that the WA is a legally binding document, and reassuring words and a nod in the PD won't quite hack it.

The revised deal she will come back with from Brussels, that will be nothing other than 'lip-service' from the EU that will inevitably fail to get voted through in the HoC.

Is that the deal on the table you meant?

[pistonheads2018]

Ghibli said:

What is not true?

Feel free to work it out for yourself - I have no desire to engage in your trolling.

[siovey]

In the interest of democracy, a new referendum is required. Mandatory voting. Give everyone the choice.The question,

Do you want another Brexit referendum ? Yes/No

Seems ridiculous(!) but wouldn't it shut all the whingers on both sides up? Who could argue against it? Put this shower of se to bed for a final time. Let the people speak!!

Obviously just a semi-serious post but I'd bet that the vast majority would vote in favour of having another brexit vote and it shows that democracy isn't dead, yet.

[saaby93]

siovey said:

In the interest of democracy, a new referendum is required. Mandatory voting. Give everyone the choice.The question,

Do you want another Brexit referendum ? Yes/No

Seems ridiculous(!) but wouldn't it shut all the whingers on both sides up? Who could argue against it? Put this shower of se to bed for a final time. Let the people speak!!

Obviously just a semi-serious post but I'd bet that the vast majority would vote in favour of having another brexit vote and it shows that democracy isn't dead, yet.

In this neck of the woods most people are fed up with it filling the news and 'just get on with it' would win

[loafer123]

My proposal to overcome this impasse is as follows;

The UK leaves the EU on the 29th March.
A 12 month transitional period based on the Withdrawal Agreement is put in place, with the UK paying an additional year's contributions to the EU.
During that 12 months, the permanent Free Trade Agreement is negotiated along the lines of Canada+, but outside the Single Market and Customs Union.
The WTO to opine on the efficacy of the technological solution and, if it says it isn't sufficient, NI to abide by SM rules until it does.

[saaby93]

pistonheads2018 said:

Ghibli said:

What is not true?

Feel free to work it out for yourself - I have no desire to engage in your trolling.

I updated it

pistonheads2018 said:

saaby93 said:

es but when you get 'no deal' you then have to go to ' how do we solve the Ireland border issue' we need a deal in place to solve it
and our big manufacturing is saying 'we need to keep a trade deal with the EU'
Both those lead to the deal on the table

At the moment the deal happens on March 29th same day as Brexit
Why go through months of turmoil to end up with the same thing?
I know - because we're British and won the war

Simply not true.

Sorry presumption on voting

Yes but when you get 'no deal' you then have to go to ' how do we solve the Ireland border issue' we need a deal in place to solve it
and our big manufacturing is saying 'we need to keep a trade deal with the EU'
Both those lead to the deal on the table

With Mays plan the deal happens on March 29th same day as Brexit
Why go through months of turmoil to end up with the same thing?
I know - because we're British and won the war

[andy_s]

saaby93 said:

andy_s said:

Ghibli said:

saaby93 said:

no it isnt
If the decision is the same we still need to find a way of exiting, while keeping border arrangements.
A trade deal would be useful and should help with the border issue

i.e. back to the deal on the table

No deal is the only thing that the Goverment can guarantee.

Precisely.

yes but when you get 'no deal' you then have to go to ' how do we solve the Ireland border issue' we need a deal in place to solve it
and our big manufacturing is saying 'we need to keep a trade deal with the EU'
Both those lead to the deal on the table

At the moment the deal happens on March 29th same day as Brexit
Why go through months of turmoil to end up with the same thing?
I know - because we're British and won the war

My immediate gut reaction is to say let the EU and RI solve the border problem and let the EU solve the trade problem (they are affected as well). We were on the back foot in negotiation because we didn't start from this position I think.

[philv]

New referendum with following options -

Remain
Leave May
Leave No deal
Leave irrespective of method

The fitst remain/leave referendum was a reciculously open and vague one.
If you disagree, i assume you would not argue to becoming personally responsible for the national debt and give your first born to slavery, as part of any withdrawl agreement?
After all, it would still be leave.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Coolbanana said:

funkyrobot said:

It's crazy. I doubt this country is geared up for democracy. We should just be controlled by a dictator and told what to do.

Such a shame that so many people have died over the years so that we have the opportunity to make a choice. The way some remainers are behaving is pathetic. Aren't they an angry lot.

I guess we need to keep having a referendum until we get the 'right' answer.

We do need a fresh start in parliament though. I doubt any of them feel bad about the way they have acted. Bunch of self serving, arrogant and out of touch plonkers.

Or you could get an education and learn what Democracy actually is instead of espousing the ignorant Propaganda instilled by your Puppet Masters.

There is nothing, nothing undemocratic about asking the Electorate if they are still happy to proceed down a specific path once the choices are better informed; which they undoubtedly are, to all intelligent people.

To continue to deny this, betrays a Gollum-like fear of losing what is most precious to you, even at the cost of true Democracy.

The choice to leave the EU in 2016 was far far better informed (on the basis of 40 plus years of `actual' experience of the EU) than the 1975 vote to remain in the EEC, which allowed the UK to be slimed into the EU without even asking the people of the UK if this was what they wanted.
In 1975 the ordinary citizen did not even know what an EU was, let alone what it would do. And yet you see no problem with the way the UK was slimed into the EU in the first place.
If the government in 2016 had taken the UK out of the EU, the same way it took the UK into it you would be screaming blue murder. Double standards or what ?

[p1stonhead]

philv said:

New referendum with following options -

Remain
Leave May
Leave No deal
Leave irrespective of method

The fitst remain/leave referendum was a reciculously open and vague one.
If you disagree, i assume you would not argue to becoming personally responsible for the national debt and give your first born to slavery, as part of any withdrawl agreement?
After all, it would still be leave.

In fairness, you can’t split the leave vote and not the remain one as Remain would walk it.

Hence it would have to be preferential with second / third choices counted.

Remain
TM Deal Leave
No deal

It would probably be close again.

[saaby93]

philv said:

New referendum with following options -

Remain
Leave May
Leave No deal
Leave irrespective of method

The fitst remain/leave referendum was a reciculously open and vague one.
If you disagree, i assume you would not argue to becoming personally responsible for the national debt and give your first born to slavery, as part of any withdrawl agreement?
After all, it would still be leave.

Do the maths - that splits the leave option into 3 so remain wins
If you want to see a poll sugestion with 2 options either way, go back 2 pages

someone edit my error

wc98 said:

saaby93 said:

There could be a 4 vote referendum with 2 leaves and and 2 stays

1. Remain in the EU including Shenzen and the Euro
2. Remain in EU as we are
3. Leave but keep trade and border arrangements i.e. the deal
4. Leave without any trade deals and for all intents border in Irish Sea

christ ! have they expanded into china as well since the referendum

[toppstuff]

This thread should be preserved and kept as a warning.

The thread neatly demonstrates why this process should never have started; why it was such a huge mistake to ask the Brexit question.

It is a case study in demonstrating how referendums can be a terrible idea.

On both sides, people form 'opinions' based on incorrect "facts", laced with their own prejudices, all fuelled by a media keen to apply its own agenda and people trying to make a name for themselves.

Take a step back everyone. Climb up high and take a look down at ourselves. We have all become idiots.

[philv]

p1stonhead said:

philv said:

New referendum with following options -

Remain
Leave May
Leave No deal
Leave irrespective of method

The fitst remain/leave referendum was a reciculously open and vague one.
If you disagree, i assume you would not argue to becoming personally responsible for the national debt and give your first born to slavery, as part of any withdrawl agreement?
After all, it would still be leave.

In fairness, you can’t split the leave vote and not the remain one as Remain would walk it.

Hence it would have to be preferential with second / third choices counted.

Remain
TM Deal Leave
No deal

It would probably be close again.

Yes, ok, agreed.
But with no obligation to state a 2nd choice.

[ATG]

johnxjsc1985 said:

vonuber said:

And saint Farage said if it was that close then it was not a settled matter, so what's your point.

WTF has Farage go to do with it he isn't an MP Cable is an elected MP. Farage has no influence on Parliament Farage has had no influence on this for 2 years but it suits you and your ilk to throw his name in to distract from the way Parliament is ignoring the will of the people.

When you say "the will of the people" you do have to remember that the referendum was only won by a small amount. It does not represent the view of an overwhelming majority. The country was and remains damn nearly evenly divided.

You ought also to remember that all political decisions are provisional. Situations and positions change. It would be perverse to say that the public are only allowed to express their opinion on a subject once as a matter of principle.

Consequently the cries of "undermining democracy" coming from both front benches and plenty of Brexiteers sound rather shrill and desperate. They're just an unconvincing attempt to close down discussion, and that's hardly the behaviour of committed democrats.

[pubrunner]

Coolbanana said:

There is nothing, nothing undemocratic about asking the Electorate if they are still happy to proceed down a specific path once the choices are better informed; which they undoubtedly are, to all intelligent people.

With regard to the choices being 'better informed', this is only a partial truth. We 'know' what the likely outcomes are if we stay in the EU - largely, based on our existing membership over the past four decades. Remaining in the EU, would surely help ensure stability.

With regard to leaving the EU, what the benefits might be, are much less tangible and therefore, much more difficult to quantify. There will be many unforeseen 'pluses' & ''minuses'; absolutely no-one can predict with any degree of accuracy, the long-term advantages & disadvantages of leaving the EU.

One can only presume, that some voted for Brexit with a complete disregard for any consequences . . . they simply want to get out of the EU. However, regardless of the personal motivating factors that might be held by voters, everyone is entitled to a vote - and they don't have to justify that vote.

The majority of the public, voted democratically to 'Leave'; following that result, it is up to the government to enact the process on behalf of those voters - that is the role of government, to deal with the specifics.