How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 6)
Discussion
siovey said:
In the interest of democracy, a new referendum is required. Mandatory voting. Give everyone the choice.The question,
Do you want another Brexit referendum ? Yes/No
Seems ridiculous(!) but wouldn't it shut all the whingers on both sides up? Who could argue against it? Put this shower of s
e to bed for a final time. Let the people speak!! 
Obviously just a semi-serious post but I'd bet that the vast majority would vote in favour of having another brexit vote and it shows that democracy isn't dead, yet.
What a great idea! Do you want another Brexit referendum ? Yes/No
Seems ridiculous(!) but wouldn't it shut all the whingers on both sides up? Who could argue against it? Put this shower of s
e to bed for a final time. Let the people speak!! Obviously just a semi-serious post but I'd bet that the vast majority would vote in favour of having another brexit vote and it shows that democracy isn't dead, yet.
I'm quite surprised that our Peoples Vote advocates haven't jumped in to agree with you. After all, they want one thing and one thing only: to check what the people now want. Right?
pubrunner said:
The majority of the public, voted democratically to 'Leave'; following that result, it is up to the government to enact the process on behalf of those voters - that is the role of government, to deal with the specifics.
and all things being equal we'd have had the vote yesterday, so called May's deal would have won (its actually all of EU's including UK deal),
business happy, Ireland border happy
Instead other gesture politics gets in the way
toppstuff said:
This thread should be preserved and kept as a warning.
The thread neatly demonstrates why this process should never have started; why it was such a huge mistake to ask the Brexit question.
It is a case study in demonstrating how referendums can be a terrible idea.
On both sides, people form 'opinions' based on incorrect "facts", laced with their own prejudices, all fuelled by a media keen to apply its own agenda and people trying to make a name for themselves.
Take a step back everyone. Climb up high and take a look down at ourselves. We have all become idiots.
No it was the smug attitude of Cameron and others convinced that UKIP and others needed a public slap down as he saw that UKIP was getting very popular and was haemoriging the tory vote. AND it bit him on the ass didnt it. The thread neatly demonstrates why this process should never have started; why it was such a huge mistake to ask the Brexit question.
It is a case study in demonstrating how referendums can be a terrible idea.
On both sides, people form 'opinions' based on incorrect "facts", laced with their own prejudices, all fuelled by a media keen to apply its own agenda and people trying to make a name for themselves.
Take a step back everyone. Climb up high and take a look down at ourselves. We have all become idiots.
mikal83 said:
toppstuff said:
This thread should be preserved and kept as a warning.
The thread neatly demonstrates why this process should never have started; why it was such a huge mistake to ask the Brexit question.
It is a case study in demonstrating how referendums can be a terrible idea.
On both sides, people form 'opinions' based on incorrect "facts", laced with their own prejudices, all fuelled by a media keen to apply its own agenda and people trying to make a name for themselves.
Take a step back everyone. Climb up high and take a look down at ourselves. We have all become idiots.
No it was the smug attitude of Cameron and others convinced that UKIP and others needed a public slap down as he saw that UKIP was getting very popular and was haemoriging the tory vote. AND it bit him on the ass didnt it. The thread neatly demonstrates why this process should never have started; why it was such a huge mistake to ask the Brexit question.
It is a case study in demonstrating how referendums can be a terrible idea.
On both sides, people form 'opinions' based on incorrect "facts", laced with their own prejudices, all fuelled by a media keen to apply its own agenda and people trying to make a name for themselves.
Take a step back everyone. Climb up high and take a look down at ourselves. We have all become idiots.
So are you.
All of us are idiots. No one has a clue about anything. We are just pretending we do.
toppstuff said:
The world is already laughing at us.
Laughing at us for punching ourselves in the face.
Laughing at us for using a binary question to decide on a complex set of possible outcomes.
Much of the world already judges us as morons. We can at least demonstrate an ability to learn and adapt. A second referendum would do that.
Ploughing on regardless and ignoring reality simply compounds our stupidity.
The world is already laughing at the EU. Laughing at us for punching ourselves in the face.
Laughing at us for using a binary question to decide on a complex set of possible outcomes.
Much of the world already judges us as morons. We can at least demonstrate an ability to learn and adapt. A second referendum would do that.
Ploughing on regardless and ignoring reality simply compounds our stupidity.
Laughing at us for punching ourselves in the face for subsidising the EU for decades.
Laughing at us for havering after answering a simple binary question.
Much of the world already judges the EU as increasingly moronic. We can at least demonstrate an ability to learn and adapt.
Ploughing on regardless in pursuit of some mythical 'status quo' and ignoring reality simply compounds our stupidity.
Coolbanana said:
It is clear as day that Leavers comprise 3 subsets:
1. Those who actively want to go WTO and see where that takes them.
2. Those who want a specific Deal (even this varies) but failing which, are happy to go WTO
3. Those who wanted a Deal, believed it to be eminently possible, but who do not want to go WTO and would rather Remain that go down that path.
If a Referendum was held that was only for Leavers, imagine a scenario where 70% signed up to WTO as an eventual outcome and 30% would only accept a favourable Deal, not WTO.
You cannot believe democracy has then taken place based upon the desires of 70% of Leavers! Add the 30% to the Remain numbers and they represent the majority of the Electorate! It is simple math.
Therefore, now that the WA has been negotiated, it is only reasonable and democratic to take into account what the majority of the population want. Not what the majority of Leavers want! The entire population should decide: WTO, Negotiated Deal, Remain.
Brexit has always been flawed for this very reason; it was not clear what the Electorate was ultimately voting for in terms of the version of Leave most would accept. Ignoring the Remain Campaign; we agree it was rubbish, but looking at the Leave Campaign we see promises made for a Deal. Many voted for that Deal. You cannot look at TM’s version either – her original No Deal is better than a Bad Deal slogan - because she never won an overall majority! The G.E. was, therefore, not a benchmark for Brexit. If anything, it could be argued the Conservatives loss indicated TM’s slogan was not good enough. Not what many wanted.
It is the so-called ‘Hard Brexiters’, the WTO Crowd, who are being blatantly undemocratic and deliberately and deceitfully trying to hijack Brexit to suit their own ends despite not being proven to hold the majority vote. Disgraceful.
Unlike remaining where some are happy to remain with the status quo but future EU changes would be a no go, so voting again in the future in the event of remain would presumably also make sense.1. Those who actively want to go WTO and see where that takes them.
2. Those who want a specific Deal (even this varies) but failing which, are happy to go WTO
3. Those who wanted a Deal, believed it to be eminently possible, but who do not want to go WTO and would rather Remain that go down that path.
If a Referendum was held that was only for Leavers, imagine a scenario where 70% signed up to WTO as an eventual outcome and 30% would only accept a favourable Deal, not WTO.
You cannot believe democracy has then taken place based upon the desires of 70% of Leavers! Add the 30% to the Remain numbers and they represent the majority of the Electorate! It is simple math.
Therefore, now that the WA has been negotiated, it is only reasonable and democratic to take into account what the majority of the population want. Not what the majority of Leavers want! The entire population should decide: WTO, Negotiated Deal, Remain.
Brexit has always been flawed for this very reason; it was not clear what the Electorate was ultimately voting for in terms of the version of Leave most would accept. Ignoring the Remain Campaign; we agree it was rubbish, but looking at the Leave Campaign we see promises made for a Deal. Many voted for that Deal. You cannot look at TM’s version either – her original No Deal is better than a Bad Deal slogan - because she never won an overall majority! The G.E. was, therefore, not a benchmark for Brexit. If anything, it could be argued the Conservatives loss indicated TM’s slogan was not good enough. Not what many wanted.
It is the so-called ‘Hard Brexiters’, the WTO Crowd, who are being blatantly undemocratic and deliberately and deceitfully trying to hijack Brexit to suit their own ends despite not being proven to hold the majority vote. Disgraceful.
SunsetZed said:
Coolbanana said:
It is clear as day that Leavers comprise 3 subsets:
1. Those who actively want to go WTO and see where that takes them.
2. Those who want a specific Deal (even this varies) but failing which, are happy to go WTO
3. Those who wanted a Deal, believed it to be eminently possible, but who do not want to go WTO and would rather Remain that go down that path.
If a Referendum was held that was only for Leavers, imagine a scenario where 70% signed up to WTO as an eventual outcome and 30% would only accept a favourable Deal, not WTO.
You cannot believe democracy has then taken place based upon the desires of 70% of Leavers! Add the 30% to the Remain numbers and they represent the majority of the Electorate! It is simple math.
Therefore, now that the WA has been negotiated, it is only reasonable and democratic to take into account what the majority of the population want. Not what the majority of Leavers want! The entire population should decide: WTO, Negotiated Deal, Remain.
Brexit has always been flawed for this very reason; it was not clear what the Electorate was ultimately voting for in terms of the version of Leave most would accept. Ignoring the Remain Campaign; we agree it was rubbish, but looking at the Leave Campaign we see promises made for a Deal. Many voted for that Deal. You cannot look at TM’s version either – her original No Deal is better than a Bad Deal slogan - because she never won an overall majority! The G.E. was, therefore, not a benchmark for Brexit. If anything, it could be argued the Conservatives loss indicated TM’s slogan was not good enough. Not what many wanted.
It is the so-called ‘Hard Brexiters’, the WTO Crowd, who are being blatantly undemocratic and deliberately and deceitfully trying to hijack Brexit to suit their own ends despite not being proven to hold the majority vote. Disgraceful.
Unlike remaining where some are happy to remain with the status quo but future EU changes would be a no go, so voting again in the future in the event of remain would presumably also make sense.1. Those who actively want to go WTO and see where that takes them.
2. Those who want a specific Deal (even this varies) but failing which, are happy to go WTO
3. Those who wanted a Deal, believed it to be eminently possible, but who do not want to go WTO and would rather Remain that go down that path.
If a Referendum was held that was only for Leavers, imagine a scenario where 70% signed up to WTO as an eventual outcome and 30% would only accept a favourable Deal, not WTO.
You cannot believe democracy has then taken place based upon the desires of 70% of Leavers! Add the 30% to the Remain numbers and they represent the majority of the Electorate! It is simple math.
Therefore, now that the WA has been negotiated, it is only reasonable and democratic to take into account what the majority of the population want. Not what the majority of Leavers want! The entire population should decide: WTO, Negotiated Deal, Remain.
Brexit has always been flawed for this very reason; it was not clear what the Electorate was ultimately voting for in terms of the version of Leave most would accept. Ignoring the Remain Campaign; we agree it was rubbish, but looking at the Leave Campaign we see promises made for a Deal. Many voted for that Deal. You cannot look at TM’s version either – her original No Deal is better than a Bad Deal slogan - because she never won an overall majority! The G.E. was, therefore, not a benchmark for Brexit. If anything, it could be argued the Conservatives loss indicated TM’s slogan was not good enough. Not what many wanted.
It is the so-called ‘Hard Brexiters’, the WTO Crowd, who are being blatantly undemocratic and deliberately and deceitfully trying to hijack Brexit to suit their own ends despite not being proven to hold the majority vote. Disgraceful.
CB - the position was simply leave or remain, with that question if you voted leave then it was what is now called 'hard brexit'. Any negotiations to soften the blow were just mutually compatible gravy between us and the EU.
Crackie said:
The world is already laughing at the EU.
Laughing at us for punching ourselves in the face for subsidising the EU for decades.
Laughing at us for havering after answering a simple binary question.
Much of the world already judges the EU as increasingly moronic. We can at least demonstrate an ability to learn and adapt.
Ploughing on regardless in pursuit of some mythical 'status quo' and ignoring reality simply compounds our stupidity.
A friend of mine is studying for a PhD in Agricultural Economics. Smart cookie. Much smarter than me.Laughing at us for punching ourselves in the face for subsidising the EU for decades.
Laughing at us for havering after answering a simple binary question.
Much of the world already judges the EU as increasingly moronic. We can at least demonstrate an ability to learn and adapt.
Ploughing on regardless in pursuit of some mythical 'status quo' and ignoring reality simply compounds our stupidity.
Her Professor regards Brexit as "naive" and the leave campaigns understanding of global trade as " absurdly simplistic". Her Professor is American and a globally respected expert on world trade.
I'm just an anonymous bloke on the internet. I am an idiot, just like you are. You will ignore this post and ignore my anecdote. I swear this is 100% correct and truthful - but you will ignore it anyway. We live in a post-truth world where facts and the sharing of information do not matter anymore.
We are all fools and this thread proves it. Thanks for your contribution to it.
p1stonhead said:
Hence it would have to be preferential with second / third choices counted.
Remain
TM Deal Leave
No deal
It would probably be close again.
There are known problems with preferential voting; with a three-option vote, a common outcome is for the 2nd choice to win - in circumstances where it is not the most popular (primary) choice. In other words, the TM Deal Leave could quite easily win, being seen as the least-worst second option for both Remain & Leave. Remain
TM Deal Leave
No deal
It would probably be close again.
toppstuff said:
This thread should be preserved and kept as a warning.
The thread neatly demonstrates why this process should never have started; why it was such a huge mistake to ask the Brexit question.
It is a case study in demonstrating how referendums can be a terrible idea.
On both sides, people form 'opinions' based on incorrect "facts", laced with their own prejudices, all fuelled by a media keen to apply its own agenda and people trying to make a name for themselves.
(to add to the last bit....)The thread neatly demonstrates why this process should never have started; why it was such a huge mistake to ask the Brexit question.
It is a case study in demonstrating how referendums can be a terrible idea.
On both sides, people form 'opinions' based on incorrect "facts", laced with their own prejudices, all fuelled by a media keen to apply its own agenda and people trying to make a name for themselves.
And politicians who saw the opportunity to gain personal advantage to further their pursuit of power.
toppstuff said:
A friend of mine is studying for a PhD in Agricultural Economics. Smart cookie. Much smarter than me.
Her Professor regards Brexit as "naive" and the leave campaigns understanding of global trade as " absurdly simplistic". Her Professor is American and a globally respected expert on world trade.
I'm just an anonymous bloke on the internet. I am an idiot, just like you are. You will ignore this post and ignore my anecdote. I swear this is 100% correct and truthful - but you will ignore it anyway. We live in a post-truth world where facts and the sharing of information do not matter anymore.
We are all fools and this thread proves it. Thanks for your contribution to it.
The really smart people aren’t in academia, they are in business getting paid to advise global corporates.Her Professor regards Brexit as "naive" and the leave campaigns understanding of global trade as " absurdly simplistic". Her Professor is American and a globally respected expert on world trade.
I'm just an anonymous bloke on the internet. I am an idiot, just like you are. You will ignore this post and ignore my anecdote. I swear this is 100% correct and truthful - but you will ignore it anyway. We live in a post-truth world where facts and the sharing of information do not matter anymore.
We are all fools and this thread proves it. Thanks for your contribution to it.
But, as ever, these types of anecdote are fairly meaningless.
pubrunner said:
p1stonhead said:
Hence it would have to be preferential with second / third choices counted.
Remain
TM Deal Leave
No deal
It would probably be close again.
There are known problems with preferential voting; with a three-option vote, a common outcome is for the 2nd choice to win - in circumstances where it is not the most popular (primary) choice. In other words, the TM Deal Leave could quite easily win, being seen as the least-worst second option for both Remain & Leave. Remain
TM Deal Leave
No deal
It would probably be close again.
I didnt get my first choice but at least I got my second is a good way of moving forward
toppstuff said:
A friend of mine is studying for a PhD in Agricultural Economics. Smart cookie. Much smarter than me.
Her Professor regards Brexit as "naive" and the leave campaigns understanding of global trade as " absurdly simplistic". Her Professor is American and a globally respected expert on world trade.
I'm just an anonymous bloke on the internet. I am an idiot, just like you are. You will ignore this post and ignore my anecdote. I swear this is 100% correct and truthful - but you will ignore it anyway. We live in a post-truth world where facts and the sharing of information do not matter anymore.
We are all fools and this thread proves it. Thanks for your contribution to it.
The biggest fools are those who continuously refuse to understand that Britain voted for sovereignty over economic simplicity. Her Professor regards Brexit as "naive" and the leave campaigns understanding of global trade as " absurdly simplistic". Her Professor is American and a globally respected expert on world trade.
I'm just an anonymous bloke on the internet. I am an idiot, just like you are. You will ignore this post and ignore my anecdote. I swear this is 100% correct and truthful - but you will ignore it anyway. We live in a post-truth world where facts and the sharing of information do not matter anymore.
We are all fools and this thread proves it. Thanks for your contribution to it.
Once you accept that the British people are content to risk the economy for it's sovereignty then things start to make more sense.
Yes this goes directly in the face of the EU and the "End of Nationalism" idea because British people are proud of their democracy in the face of a European Autocracy.
But there you go. That's democracy for you. We make the decision that effect our lives.
Coolbanana said:
It is clear as day that Leavers comprise 3 subsets:
1. Those who actively want to go WTO and see where that takes them.
2. Those who want a specific Deal (even this varies) but failing which, are happy to go WTO
3. Those who wanted a Deal, believed it to be eminently possible, but who do not want to go WTO and would rather Remain that go down that path.
Clear to you CB...…..nothing more.1. Those who actively want to go WTO and see where that takes them.
2. Those who want a specific Deal (even this varies) but failing which, are happy to go WTO
3. Those who wanted a Deal, believed it to be eminently possible, but who do not want to go WTO and would rather Remain that go down that path.
Remainer's comprise 3 subsets.
1. Full on ant colony....shut the UK parliament and let Jean Claude Sciatica sort everything out.
2. "You nasty old people, you've stolen my future. Its not fair that you have a nice house and car; at least you'll be dead soon."
3. The EU isn't that bad but it could do with some reform; I'm not so keen on the idea of an EU army or Brussels having a say in the UK's taxation levels and would rather Leave than go down that path.
John145 said:
toppstuff said:
A friend of mine is studying for a PhD in Agricultural Economics. Smart cookie. Much smarter than me.
Her Professor regards Brexit as "naive" and the leave campaigns understanding of global trade as " absurdly simplistic". Her Professor is American and a globally respected expert on world trade.
I'm just an anonymous bloke on the internet. I am an idiot, just like you are. You will ignore this post and ignore my anecdote. I swear this is 100% correct and truthful - but you will ignore it anyway. We live in a post-truth world where facts and the sharing of information do not matter anymore.
We are all fools and this thread proves it. Thanks for your contribution to it.
The biggest fools as those who continuously refuse to understand that Britain voted for sovereignty over economic simplicity. Her Professor regards Brexit as "naive" and the leave campaigns understanding of global trade as " absurdly simplistic". Her Professor is American and a globally respected expert on world trade.
I'm just an anonymous bloke on the internet. I am an idiot, just like you are. You will ignore this post and ignore my anecdote. I swear this is 100% correct and truthful - but you will ignore it anyway. We live in a post-truth world where facts and the sharing of information do not matter anymore.
We are all fools and this thread proves it. Thanks for your contribution to it.
Once you accept that the British people are content to risk the economy for it's sovereignty then things start to make more sense.
Yes this goes directly in the face of the EU and the "End of Nationalism" idea because British people are proud of their democracy in the face of a European Autocracy.
But there you go. That's democracy for you. We make the decision that effect our lives.
The public, like it or not, aren't smart enough to make decisions like this. We base our decisions not on facts or cold hard truths, we base decisions on emotive language and situations. It has happened so many times in history that we'd run out of room just recounting them all. Yet we fall for it time and time again.
Like I said, we vote for politicians to make difficult decisions for us. The moment they ask the public it's not an empowerment of democracy at all, it's a get out of jail card for the MP's when what we voted for bites us and bites us hard. They can't be blamed for doing what the public wanted.
philv said:
New referendum with following options -
Remain
Leave May
Leave No deal
Leave irrespective of method
The fitst remain/leave referendum was a reciculously open and vague one.
If you disagree, i assume you would not argue to becoming personally responsible for the national debt and give your first born to slavery, as part of any withdrawl agreement?
After all, it would still be leave.
It wouldn't be close though, surely anything that splits the leave vote would mean remain wins?Remain
Leave May
Leave No deal
Leave irrespective of method
The fitst remain/leave referendum was a reciculously open and vague one.
If you disagree, i assume you would not argue to becoming personally responsible for the national debt and give your first born to slavery, as part of any withdrawl agreement?
After all, it would still be leave.
A 'people's vote' would need to be a 2-way vote, either; remain vs. leave again or to accept the result of the last vote but offer a deal vs. no deal option although I can't see that being accepted.
I suppose you could run the remain vs. leave vote and then if leave won, then run a 'deal vs. no deal' vote but all that sounds more like a game show than a way to run a country's affairs.
At least that way the Politicians could blame the people...
Either way 'tis a veritable s
tshow.Coolbanana said:
Or you could get an education and learn what Democracy actually is instead of espousing the ignorant Propaganda instilled by your Puppet Masters.
There is nothing, nothing undemocratic about asking the Electorate if they are still happy to proceed down a specific path once the choices are better informed; which they undoubtedly are, to all intelligent people.
To continue to deny this, betrays a Gollum-like fear of losing what is most precious to you, even at the cost of true Democracy.
There is nothing, nothing undemocratic about asking the Electorate if they are still happy to proceed down a specific path once the choices are better informed; which they undoubtedly are, to all intelligent people.
To continue to deny this, betrays a Gollum-like fear of losing what is most precious to you, even at the cost of true Democracy.
Oh dear.
Do you really think we are better informed? Do you now know exactly what is going to happen in this process? Can you say for sure what will happen if we now leave or stay?
It's bulls
t. The decision was made, but it was the 'wrong' decision. Simple as that.Nobody knows what will happen if we leave or stay. It's just people in power throwing their weight around and trying to scare people. It's also spineless MP's showing more of an interest in trying to get one over each other, rather than doing things in the best interest of the country. If they weren't being so selfish and so stupid, we would probably be in a better position now.
This is all down to incompetent leaders with no backbone, power grabbing, petty, childish arguments and a load of grumpy people who are unhappy because it didn't go the way they expected. Nothing more.
And your comments.
You sound like a sour old remainer who is pi**ed off because he didn't get what he wanted in 2016. Mummy, mummy, Santa brought me the wrong present. Get the right present NOW!Edited by funkyrobot on Tuesday 11th December 11:12
Crackie said:
Clear to you CB...…..nothing more.
Remainer's comprise 3 subsets.
1. Full on ant colony....shut the UK parliament and let Jean Claude Sciatica sort everything out.
2. "You nasty old people, you've stolen my future. Its not fair that you have a nice house and car; at least you'll be dead soon."
3. The EU isn't that bad but it could do with some reform; I'm not so keen on the idea of an EU army or Brussels having a say in the UK's taxation levels and would rather Leave than go down that path.
You quite literally know nothing. Not one of those points makes any sense, nor applies to anyone I know.Remainer's comprise 3 subsets.
1. Full on ant colony....shut the UK parliament and let Jean Claude Sciatica sort everything out.
2. "You nasty old people, you've stolen my future. Its not fair that you have a nice house and car; at least you'll be dead soon."
3. The EU isn't that bad but it could do with some reform; I'm not so keen on the idea of an EU army or Brussels having a say in the UK's taxation levels and would rather Leave than go down that path.
John145 said:
The biggest fools are those who continuously refuse to understand that Britain voted for sovereignty over economic simplicity.
Once you accept that the British people are content to risk the economy for it's sovereignty then things start to make more sense.
Exactly. For some it is a decision of some passion and national pride, for others it is purely down to economics. A lot of people don't mind being a bit worse off if it means Britain governs itself again and we can make our own laws - In fact a lot of people living above London would barely feel the impact of a no deal outcome. Once you accept that the British people are content to risk the economy for it's sovereignty then things start to make more sense.
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