"Metropolitan Police officers assaulted autistic boy"
Discussion
Mad Dave said:
Indeed, though every officer I know would have gone in, regardless of policy. Tell control room and immediately take your radio off to go in, then when you're inevitable b
ked for ignoring their refusal, you can honestly say you didn't hear it. 
Glad to hear it. ked for ignoring their refusal, you can honestly say you didn't hear it. If only more people with that attitude were in charge, we'd have a better country.
davepoth said:
The police were called before he was in the water. The story tells us that the Police were unable to stop him from jumping in because he was too strong. Why were the Police called? I'm wondering if his handlers were concerned for their safety. If that's the case then I think the Police were 100% correct to do what they did based on what they had been presented with.
That's not the story the link tells or what they were stating on the radio. Police were called after he was in the water because it was the pool's policy to call police if anyone clothed was in the pool.dandarez said:
Sorry Derek I disagree. You cannot say he was patently dead. One doctor said he could have survived. Even the hospital Registrar said if he had been removed when first spotted there was chance of survival.
But no one can tell, because he was simply left there.
At least in this case of Simon Burgess (the chap who drowned, probably needlessly) some still adhere to the old values, like the PC first on scene and one of the Paramedics.
PC Tony Jones arrived at the scene on foot very shortly after Mr Burgess fell into the water while feeding the swans.
PC Jones told the inquest:
‘When I spoke to witnesses and found out the body hadn’t been there long I told my sergeant I was willing to go into the water.
‘He authorised me to do so, and I took off my body armour but Mr Nicholls advised me strongly not to go in.
‘I said I would go in anyway and asked if I could borrow his life jacket but he said “No”, but I was going to do it regardless.
It didn’t sit right with me that no one was going to get the body or assist the person in the water.
‘The control room was informed I was going in and they sent a message that under no circumstances could I go in the water.’
So he stands there with no option because he would obviously lose his job had he gone in.
And the same with Paramedic Robert Wallace who was experienced in swimming in white water rafting currents was also refused, despite offering to go in.
What a dreadful situation to be put in for those two men. They still retain their 'common sense' but were refused to use it by those with absolutely 'no sense'!
No need to apologise for disagreeing with me. No one else does.But no one can tell, because he was simply left there.
At least in this case of Simon Burgess (the chap who drowned, probably needlessly) some still adhere to the old values, like the PC first on scene and one of the Paramedics.
PC Tony Jones arrived at the scene on foot very shortly after Mr Burgess fell into the water while feeding the swans.
PC Jones told the inquest:
‘When I spoke to witnesses and found out the body hadn’t been there long I told my sergeant I was willing to go into the water.
‘He authorised me to do so, and I took off my body armour but Mr Nicholls advised me strongly not to go in.
‘I said I would go in anyway and asked if I could borrow his life jacket but he said “No”, but I was going to do it regardless.
It didn’t sit right with me that no one was going to get the body or assist the person in the water.
‘The control room was informed I was going in and they sent a message that under no circumstances could I go in the water.’
So he stands there with no option because he would obviously lose his job had he gone in.
And the same with Paramedic Robert Wallace who was experienced in swimming in white water rafting currents was also refused, despite offering to go in.
What a dreadful situation to be put in for those two men. They still retain their 'common sense' but were refused to use it by those with absolutely 'no sense'!
There was much conflicting evidence at the coroner’s court. Not to mention much conflicting reporting. I’m not sure that Jones was the first unit on scene. Far from it in fact.
But one comment in your post first. You say I can’t say the person was patently dead.
From what I read the first unit on scene was nearly 20 mins after the call – there was some complaint about the time delay. There was some delay in calling 999. The chap had fallen in and it was ‘some time’ before anyone noticed. Further, Jones was not in the first batch of arrivals. Secondly he could not have been there just after the chap fell in the water as no one saw him fall.
The chap was face down in the water. He had been that way for around 30 mins.
The Registrar said that if the chap had been pulled out when first noticed he might have lived. Well, did that include the time it took to contact the police – there was that delay – and the time it took the first unit to arrive – within their bogey time – and the additional time it took Jones to arrive. I think his statement was no more than guesswork.
Further, and not particularly relevant I know, but the reason the FB chose that course of action is probably because of what some judge said after another incident where he criticised police or FB action.
Of course, what I read at the time might have been wrong but then that goes for all of us. However, I’ve met enough FB incident commanders to believe that the information the chap had at the time made his decision the sensible one.
PC Jones might well have been a hero, I don’t know. But equally he might have been reacting to pressure and adrenaline and the sensible approach was the most appropriate.
My actions have been subject to a report in court which was picked up by the papers. The coroner left out the information which the briefs for the deceased’s relatives had had excluded when making her statement and the media left out all the remaining details which mitigated against the comment. I’m sure that most officers can quote incidents where something similar has happened.
I’ve had to write a report on an incident where a chap got punched after he tried to eject two people from a cab he thought was 'his'. He fell and hit his head. So why the report? The police actions were criticised, I think by the coroner but possibly by a judge, yet they were based on information given to us by health professionals.
The papers lie. Coroners over react. I don’t think I’ve ever met a senior operational fire officer who over-reacts. Darwin would see to that, or his lads. In fact most have been calm and a source of sensible advice.
I have no doubt that Jones believes what he says.
There is more to the incident than the press have published and what they left out will mitigate against the culpability of the incident commander.
That said, it might have been a massive c**k up but in that case I feel the reports in the press would not just have used the old ‘PC gone mad’ stalwart headline.
No apology for disagreeing you notice, but I hope you don't think I'm having a go at you. But in my experience it is good advice to follow the senior fire officers' good advice at a incident. I've got a soft spot for SFOs.
dandarez said:
This response to that particular drowning from a Canadian who was born in the UK tells it like it is.
'I look at Britain, my native land, the country I was born and educated in, with sadness in my heart.
You are in a perilous state.
You have allowed yourselves to be "Regulated" out of your minds, literally. You have been socially-engineered into being non-thinking servile zombies. How long has this been going on?
Do you ever ask yourselves this question? It wasn't going on in the 70's when I left England. The circumstances of a man drowning in a 3ft deep pond are tragic, but also an insight into a more pernicious social mind-set.
You Brits are regulated every which way you turn. More CCTV cameras than there are people! Wheely bins in the right place at the right time on the right day. And I see no evidence that you are going to wake up and use the mind that your maker gave you. You have surrendered your rights to apply common sense, with hardly a whimper.
Wake up.'
As far as I am concerned, people who have emigrated have lost their right to complain about the country they have left. In any case, I'm quite sure that if I went to Canada it wouldn't take me long to find things about the place that I didn't like, just as it wouldn't take long in any country in the world.'I look at Britain, my native land, the country I was born and educated in, with sadness in my heart.
You are in a perilous state.
You have allowed yourselves to be "Regulated" out of your minds, literally. You have been socially-engineered into being non-thinking servile zombies. How long has this been going on?
Do you ever ask yourselves this question? It wasn't going on in the 70's when I left England. The circumstances of a man drowning in a 3ft deep pond are tragic, but also an insight into a more pernicious social mind-set.
You Brits are regulated every which way you turn. More CCTV cameras than there are people! Wheely bins in the right place at the right time on the right day. And I see no evidence that you are going to wake up and use the mind that your maker gave you. You have surrendered your rights to apply common sense, with hardly a whimper.
Wake up.'
The chap is obviously not an educated person, or wouldn't have used the word 'literally' about a metaphor, and wouldn't have exaggerated in the way in which he did, thus disqualifying himself from holding a valid opinion on the subject.
singlecoil said:
As far as I am concerned, people who have emigrated have lost their right to complain about the country they have left. In any case, I'm quite sure that if I went to Canada it wouldn't take me long to find things about the place that I didn't like, just as it wouldn't take long in any country in the world.
The chap is obviously not an educated person, or wouldn't have used the word 'literally' about a metaphor, and wouldn't have exaggerated in the way in which he did, thus disqualifying himself from holding a valid opinion on the subject.
He probably gets all his information from the papers and TV so perhaps we should cut him some slack.The chap is obviously not an educated person, or wouldn't have used the word 'literally' about a metaphor, and wouldn't have exaggerated in the way in which he did, thus disqualifying himself from holding a valid opinion on the subject.
egor110 said:
davepoth said:
The police were called before he was in the water. The story tells us that the Police were unable to stop him from jumping in because he was too strong. Why were the Police called? I'm wondering if his handlers were concerned for their safety. If that's the case then I think the Police were 100% correct to do what they did based on what they had been presented with.
That's not the story the link tells or what they were stating on the radio. Police were called after he was in the water because it was the pool's policy to call police if anyone clothed was in the pool."When ZH moved closer to the pool, two officers took hold of his jacket as he began to gather momentum, but he was much too big and strong and ended up in the water, which was chest-deep.
ZH was moved to the shallow end and lifted out by lifeguards, with two police officers taking hold of his arms before handcuffs and leg restraints were applied."
singlecoil said:
As far as I am concerned, people who have emigrated have lost their right to complain about the country they have left. In any case, I'm quite sure that if I went to Canada it wouldn't take me long to find things about the place that I didn't like, just as it wouldn't take long in any country in the world.
The chap is obviously not an educated person, or wouldn't have used the word 'literally' about a metaphor, and wouldn't have exaggerated in the way in which he did, thus disqualifying himself from holding a valid opinion on the subject.
What a load of crap.The chap is obviously not an educated person, or wouldn't have used the word 'literally' about a metaphor, and wouldn't have exaggerated in the way in which he did, thus disqualifying himself from holding a valid opinion on the subject.
Do you think that because someone (such as myself who has moved to France) cannot voice an opinion as to what occurs back in the 'home country'?
Perhaps if you opened your eyes and used your brain as to which way the UK is heading you would think about bailing out also? Or are you content to continue living in a country which is denigrating its indigenous population?
For me personally, if I wish to live in a third world s
thole I'll choose one where it's cheaper and the weather is better.So there.
Regarding the guy that drowned in the lake, if it's the same one I'm thinking of the lake is well known to be frequented by drug users and thought to have discarded needles in it. Would you wade in now?
I'm also pretty sure the fire brigade are responsible for scene safety at these jobs, so if the guy in charge says don't go in, you'd be on dodgy ground if you disobeyed him.
I'm also pretty sure the fire brigade are responsible for scene safety at these jobs, so if the guy in charge says don't go in, you'd be on dodgy ground if you disobeyed him.
smegmore said:
singlecoil said:
As far as I am concerned, people who have emigrated have lost their right to complain about the country they have left. In any case, I'm quite sure that if I went to Canada it wouldn't take me long to find things about the place that I didn't like, just as it wouldn't take long in any country in the world.
The chap is obviously not an educated person, or wouldn't have used the word 'literally' about a metaphor, and wouldn't have exaggerated in the way in which he did, thus disqualifying himself from holding a valid opinion on the subject.
What a load of crap.The chap is obviously not an educated person, or wouldn't have used the word 'literally' about a metaphor, and wouldn't have exaggerated in the way in which he did, thus disqualifying himself from holding a valid opinion on the subject.
Do you think that because someone (such as myself who has moved to France) cannot voice an opinion as to what occurs back in the 'home country'?
Perhaps if you opened your eyes and used your brain as to which way the UK is heading you would think about bailing out also? Or are you content to continue living in a country which is denigrating its indigenous population?
For me personally, if I wish to live in a third world s
thole I'll choose one where it's cheaper and the weather is better.So there.
k of a lot better than anywhere else.Mad Dave said:
They've spelt "thank you most graciously for saving our son's life" wrong.
Quite so.I listened to the discussion with the boy's solicitor on Radio 5 yesterday and was left more in the dark at the end of it. I don't understand how you can have a system in place where someone has agreed that the lad should go on the trip without the backup in place to help him out and keep him safe if he kicks off. As I understand it he was a big lad and once he went into meltdown there wasn't much that could be done any different from any other adult sized person going off on one. Had the police not acted like they did and the lad drowned or hurt someone else then it would have been an immediate claim for compensation.
Surely he was underattended by carers.
As an aside, why are there (or seem to be) so many autistic kids these days? It feels like it wasn't invented* when I was a kid.
- not suggesting it IS an invented thing BTW
Their are so many different versions of this news story knocking about, i dont know what to think.
The pool and the police had a duty of care. They were heavy handed in actioning that duty of care.
Should their be an enquiry? of course.
Should the officers involved be disciplined? No, but some additional training might be useful.
What would the papers be saying if the boy had drowned?
The pool and the police had a duty of care. They were heavy handed in actioning that duty of care.
Should their be an enquiry? of course.
Should the officers involved be disciplined? No, but some additional training might be useful.
What would the papers be saying if the boy had drowned?
gtdc said:
Quite so.
I listened to the discussion with the boy's solicitor on Radio 5 yesterday and was left more in the dark at the end of it. I don't understand how you can have a system in place where someone has agreed that the lad should go on the trip without the backup in place to help him out and keep him safe if he kicks off. As I understand it he was a big lad and once he went into meltdown there wasn't much that could be done any different from any other adult sized person going off on one. Had the police not acted like they did and the lad drowned or hurt someone else then it would have been an immediate claim for compensation.
Surely he was underattended by carers.
As an aside, why are there (or seem to be) so many autistic kids these days? It feels like it wasn't invented* when I was a kid.
Autism's always been there. It's just that when you were a kid the ones at the lower end of the Autism Spectrum were just regarded as "eccentric" and left to get on with it. The ones at the higher end were put in homes and left to rot.I listened to the discussion with the boy's solicitor on Radio 5 yesterday and was left more in the dark at the end of it. I don't understand how you can have a system in place where someone has agreed that the lad should go on the trip without the backup in place to help him out and keep him safe if he kicks off. As I understand it he was a big lad and once he went into meltdown there wasn't much that could be done any different from any other adult sized person going off on one. Had the police not acted like they did and the lad drowned or hurt someone else then it would have been an immediate claim for compensation.
Surely he was underattended by carers.
As an aside, why are there (or seem to be) so many autistic kids these days? It feels like it wasn't invented* when I was a kid.
- not suggesting it IS an invented thing BTW
singlecoil said:
Some pretty obvious and thinly disguised jealousy going on there. From the sound of you, I think we are better off without you. England may not be perfect but it's a fk of a lot better than anywhere else.
And that statement is based on what experience (and i'm not talking about two weeks in Benidorm)?k of a lot better than anywhere else.I left the UK two years ago, completely fed up and pissed off with being told what to do by busybodies and told what to think by the press and HM Govt.
MY choice. It doesn't mean that we (expats the world over) don't feel anything about the place of our birth. Of course we do - our families usually still reside there. THAT is what entitles all of us to an opinion. However, we all left for our own reasons, and as such the changes that happen don't have a daily effect on us. The problem we experience is that the changes are so bloody pronounced each time we visit. In the last two years, I've felt that the UK has turned into some sort of bizarre parody. The PC madness gets worse every time we visit.
I now live in a police state. It is significantly more relaxed than the UK, the "authorities" are polite when you deal with them. Positive discrimination against women is rife (YES they have their own queue's and special treatment almost everywhere you go). Crime is low (the penalties are severe - might be something in that eh?) there is almost 100% employment, there is no welfare state and no taxation.
Yes sir - if you consider that the UK is better off without the likes of me, then fine. However, please don't insult my birthright, or my intelligence for happening to agree with the gentleman from Canada who commented on the state of his homeland.
Your POV is quite disheartening as it is indicative of just what a good job the PC brigade with their book of petty legislature have done. I feel sorry for you
davepoth said:
Autism's always been there. It's just that when you were a kid the ones at the lower end of the Autism Spectrum were just regarded as "eccentric" and left to get on with it. The ones at the higher end were put in homes and left to rot.
That's probabaly it. They'd have just been thought to be simple and locked away before kids could be diagnosed properly.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff