Britain, one of the worst social mobility rates in the West
Discussion
el stovey said:
KrazyIvan said:
What a complete load of crap, and all to well sums up the lazy feckless who are all to quick to blame others. There are plenty of examples of those who have come from nothing to be someone, and those who have had it all and lost it through there own actions/inactions.
Ignoring it is why we now have generations of people living on benefits and having no qualifications, ambitions, and having their own children at 15 who will most likely not do any better than they did.
We have several generations that have no desire to work, as they have nothing to strive for, they pass this on to their kids who have the same attitude, all reinforced by the benefits system.
We have a schools system that refuses to reward good behaviour while punishing bad, and believes that competition is a bad thing and every ones a winner.
We have a housing issues, that is in part due to the fact that people refuses to downsize from their parents house to get their foot on the ladder or move to an area where they can afford a better house, and so complain that houses are too expensive because they can't afford what they want.
We have a credit system where people feel that saving for something is not fair, and then when they are way out of their depth in debt, that its not their fault the banks kept lending them money. Or they didn't read all the fine print on their loan/CC and should not be liable to pay back what they signed up for.
We have politicians too scared to make the hard choices because they are too busy thinking about their next election, and worried that doing what is needed will cost them their next office.
The problem is the nations attitude as a whole, we have gone from believe we can better ourselves through hard work, to believing we should simply be given what want by taking it from those who have.
Take 1 child. Show them a person doing well for himself.
Tell them: "Look at the nice house that person has. Look at his nice cars and holidays his well-paid job. Or maybe he doesn't have a load of money, but works for himself doing what he loves and answers to no-one. If you work hard, you can have those things too."
Take 1 child. Show them a person doing well for himself.
Tell them: "Look at the rich toff! He thinks he's better than you. He's probably a liar and lied his way to the top and is mean to puppies. I bet his parents paid his way through some posh school, too. They should be ashamed of themselves. If you want something nice, the government will get it for you, and even better, they'll take the money off those rich snobs!"
See how your social mobility works out.
Tell them: "Look at the nice house that person has. Look at his nice cars and holidays his well-paid job. Or maybe he doesn't have a load of money, but works for himself doing what he loves and answers to no-one. If you work hard, you can have those things too."
Take 1 child. Show them a person doing well for himself.
Tell them: "Look at the rich toff! He thinks he's better than you. He's probably a liar and lied his way to the top and is mean to puppies. I bet his parents paid his way through some posh school, too. They should be ashamed of themselves. If you want something nice, the government will get it for you, and even better, they'll take the money off those rich snobs!"
See how your social mobility works out.
KrazyIvan said:
el stovey said:
KrazyIvan said:
What a complete load of crap, and all to well sums up the lazy feckless who are all to quick to blame others. {b}There are plenty of examples of those who have come from nothing to be someone[/b], and those who have had it all and lost it through there own actions/inactions.
Ignoring it is why we now have generations of people living on benefits and having no qualifications, ambitions, and having their own children at 15 who will most likely not do any better than they did.
We have several generations that have no desire to work, as they have nothing to strive for, they pass this on to their kids who have the same attitude, all reinforced by the benefits system.
We have a schools system that refuses to reward good behaviour while punishing bad, and believes that competition is a bad thing and every ones a winner.
We have a housing issues, that is in part due to the fact that people refuses to downsize from their parents house to get their foot on the ladder or move to an area where they can afford a better house, and so complain that houses are too expensive because they can't afford what they want.
We have a credit system where people feel that saving for something is not fair, and then when they are way out of their depth in debt, that its not their fault the banks kept lending them money. Or they didn't read all the fine print on their loan/CC and should not be liable to pay back what they signed up for.
We have politicians too scared to make the hard choices because they are too busy thinking about their next election, and worried that doing what is needed will cost them their next office.
The problem is the nations attitude as a whole, we have gone from believe we can better ourselves through hard work, to believing we should simply be given what want by taking it from those who have.
In your first statement you mentioned the plenty of examples of people doing well from poor backgrounds suggesting there wasn't an issue of social mobility but now you seem to be saying we have a lack of social mobility and give the reasons for it.
Blue62 said:
Will a prolonged period of genuine austerity change attitudes in this country and elsewhere for the better or the worse?
I shouldn't see why it wouldn't, if we went back to the only way to have luxuries in life was to earn them, then people would soon realise that work is rewarding, and not the pass time of fools.The problem is time, it would take far longer to re-align peoples attitudes to this way of thinking then it has taken to move away from it, longer then any government who set out to do it would have in power.
el stovey said:
So are you saying we have low social mobility or not?
In your first statement you mentioned the plenty of examples of people doing well from poor backgrounds suggesting there wasn't an issue of social mobility but now you seem to be saying we have a lack of social mobility and give the reasons for it.
In your first statement you mentioned the plenty of examples of people doing well from poor backgrounds suggesting there wasn't an issue of social mobility but now you seem to be saying we have a lack of social mobility and give the reasons for it.
el stovey said:
Ignoring it is why we now have generations of people living on benefits and having no qualifications, ambitions, and having their own children at 15 who will most likely not do any better than they did.
Sorry, but maybe I am missing your point, as you seem to be saying that social mobility is the cause for the problems with benefit generations, where as I see it as the other way around, in that the laziness that is being rewarded is what is causing the social mobility issues, and that people no longer believe hard work is the way to better yourself.As said low social mobility is not the problem, but simply the effect, and as said is the current buzz word being used to avoid telling people their lazy and should work harder if they want more out of life.
Edited by KrazyIvan on Wednesday 2nd May 12:07
We have no education system that fosters talent.
We used to have grammar schools.
At the age of about 10 the smart kids would get spotted and sent to schools for smart kids.
This doesn’t happen any more, so the smart kids get lumped with the rest of them and don’t receive the encouragement or direction that would make them excel.
It didn’t matter who your parents were, you could still get picked up by the 11+ and sent grammar school where you would be guided along the academic path.
(In this context smart means academically smart as opposed to any other meaning)
In the US they have scholarships that spot the smart kids.
Now all we have are same schools trying to teach the same way to the different types of children.
That’s not to say that academics are better than those with more vocational skills.
But it’s just recognising that they can perform better with different teaching methods.
We used to have grammar schools.
At the age of about 10 the smart kids would get spotted and sent to schools for smart kids.
This doesn’t happen any more, so the smart kids get lumped with the rest of them and don’t receive the encouragement or direction that would make them excel.
It didn’t matter who your parents were, you could still get picked up by the 11+ and sent grammar school where you would be guided along the academic path.
(In this context smart means academically smart as opposed to any other meaning)
In the US they have scholarships that spot the smart kids.
Now all we have are same schools trying to teach the same way to the different types of children.
That’s not to say that academics are better than those with more vocational skills.
But it’s just recognising that they can perform better with different teaching methods.
Blue62 said:
Will a prolonged period of genuine austerity change attitudes in this country and elsewhere for the better or the worse?
I think it will make it worse. There will be less money for schools and projects in rough areas whilst still not creating jobs or training and apprenticeships for people with no qualifications and keeping the safety net of benefits.
There is no more incentive for people with low social mobility in an age of austerity as long as they still get easy benefits and no opportunity and more importantly incentive to find work.
There are jobs around for people from Eastern Europe that UK people think are beneath them. That's because they can get just as much not working. What's the solution? Presumably the Polish gardener had parents teaching him work ethics as a child, we can't address that in British adults so the only incentive is to make benefits much less than having a job as a gardener.
Why are Scandinavian countries happier and have more social mobility than us? Because the government spends more money on schools hospitals and social services. The tax is higher on the better paid and there is less disparity in earnings through the population. As a result there is less social decay, less teenage pregnancy and less drug/alcohol abuse and less benefit dependency.
We have to first sort out the benefit trap by making people who can work actually get a job, before we can even dream of being like them.
What a depressingly bleak inditement of 21century Britain.
Low achievement has been institutionalised into huge numbers of the population, and even those with a spark of ambition have it crushed out of them when they realise that the odds of getting a foot on the ladder are stacked against them. Nothing to lose and nothing to gain.
The rich-poor divide has never been this bad before as right wing governments of one hue followed by right wing governments of the other hue collude with scum like Murdoch, and l'Oreal generation bankers to ensure that wealth remains where it always has.
"Sorry poor person.Yer name's not on the list.."
Why we are prepared to tolerate the political and economic elite keeping the rest of us down is beyond me.
Low achievement has been institutionalised into huge numbers of the population, and even those with a spark of ambition have it crushed out of them when they realise that the odds of getting a foot on the ladder are stacked against them. Nothing to lose and nothing to gain.
The rich-poor divide has never been this bad before as right wing governments of one hue followed by right wing governments of the other hue collude with scum like Murdoch, and l'Oreal generation bankers to ensure that wealth remains where it always has.
"Sorry poor person.Yer name's not on the list.."
Why we are prepared to tolerate the political and economic elite keeping the rest of us down is beyond me.
Benbay001 said:
The number of my friends who are at uni studying with no idea what job they want to take up at the end is massively worrying.
That's a by-product of "educated to degree level" jobs [i.e. any degree will do, we dont give a toss, just want to be snobby and elitist].Fortunately, so long as this carries on, your mates will be fine
Benbay001 said:
The number of my friends who are at uni studying with no idea what job they want to take up at the end is massively worrying.
I think that is normal. The vast majority of my peers at Uni didn't have a clear job/career in mind. It is for this reason that the choice of Uni and the choice of course is important. Do well on a good course at a good Uni and it will stand you in good stead in the job market (including academic postings). Doing poorly on a poor course at a poor Uni is far more likely to be a waste of time that could have been better spent employed and gaining experience.
roachcoach said:
Benbay001 said:
The number of my friends who are at uni studying with no idea what job they want to take up at the end is massively worrying.
That's a by-product of "educated to degree level" jobs [i.e. any degree will do, we dont give a toss, just want to be snobby and elitist].Fortunately, so long as this carries on, your mates will be fine
Asking for a degree in an fast-track-quick-promotion-role is no different to asking for solid GCSEs or A levels in a junior role.
A degree, any degree, shows an aptitude to learn, to apply oneself to a task, to manage ones time, to be self motivated, to stick with a task over several years.
That’s not to say that people can’t have these skills without a degree, but a degree is a quick and easy filter for a company to apply when interviewing for a new job.
I think that once someone hits the age of 30 the degree becomes irrelevant compared to the rest of the CV. But under 30 it’s a good indication of ones skills.
The lack of social mobility is an interesting topic.
Even as a socialist I think a lot has to rest on the shoulders of parents. The problem is, regardless of who's fault it is, it's their children that pay the price throughout their lives...and in turn their children and so on. A kind of cycle of poverty and learned behaviour. A few do escape this but not as often as in other places, which was the point of the original article really.
Maybe the British poor are different and it's motivation to improve their lives they lack. However maybe chip shops, watching TV while dad drinks beer after work and hanging out with people of your social class become learned behaviours. Those habits and learned behaviours you never really break like your accent...most of the time you don't even realise you have it.
So perhaps people deserve a fair chance, especially amongst the young kids who under other circumstances would thrive at school to go on to university and careers. We spend massive amounts of money on these problem later in life anyway, maybe spending now should be seen as mitigating intergenerational welfare dependence, crime, substance abuse, squandered talent etc.
Even as a socialist I think a lot has to rest on the shoulders of parents. The problem is, regardless of who's fault it is, it's their children that pay the price throughout their lives...and in turn their children and so on. A kind of cycle of poverty and learned behaviour. A few do escape this but not as often as in other places, which was the point of the original article really.
Maybe the British poor are different and it's motivation to improve their lives they lack. However maybe chip shops, watching TV while dad drinks beer after work and hanging out with people of your social class become learned behaviours. Those habits and learned behaviours you never really break like your accent...most of the time you don't even realise you have it.
So perhaps people deserve a fair chance, especially amongst the young kids who under other circumstances would thrive at school to go on to university and careers. We spend massive amounts of money on these problem later in life anyway, maybe spending now should be seen as mitigating intergenerational welfare dependence, crime, substance abuse, squandered talent etc.
The Michael Gove-rnment is allowing grammar schools to expand but this is still running scared of Guardian headline writers, they should commit to at least one grammar school in every major town currently lacking one and bring back the most effective social mobility engine (not) available at present.
fido said:
That's the problem. I don't live on a council estate. I live in a relatively affluent part of London (albeit with a slightly higher than average ASBO crime). It's about the difference in attitude between those than want-to-do and those who need their mum to drag them to a job interview.
You're not going to get English workers unless you pay them properly. That means enough to pay for them to live in a habitable home with their family with a respectable standard of living.If you're not willing to pay that you'll get poor immigrant workers who will live in a shed in Hounslow or Slough. They might do a great job for you but maybe you should think of the wider social effects of the choices you make, namely the collapse of the labour market in the UK.
English workers didn't suddenly become genetically lazy in the last half century. Take a look at yourself before blaming the poor for the state of the UK.
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