Honour killings

[SLacKer]

What Honour is there in killing anyone? Abusing or killing people is the most dishonourable thing there is.

Agree on the weakness of the prosecution so far, they must have more evidence than this.

[DonkeyApple]

MadMullah said:

With more specific to this case - i think the cps doesnt have a strong case. 7 years later after being caught robbing her parents house she decides to go public with what she saw? rather convenient and i do think the defence will hit her hard on this.

i do think her parents did have soemthing to do with it - however i dont believe her - you cant hide soemthing as traumatic as that for 7 years.

It's wierd isn't it.

But I guess it is feasible that she lived in terror. People can hold secrets like this for decades, you only have to look at how long it takes people to come out with knowledge over child abuse, sometimes only when forced. I think it is possible to keep quiet.

In which case, what is the catalyst for blurting out now? Often people finally talk when others have come forward or if they suddenly feel old enough to be safe or if they are simply forced to by someone. In this example, I wonder if the catalyst was that having been caught robbing her parents house maybe her lifestyle had become a little too 'Western' and she suddenly feared the same treatment as her sister.

The real risk of cases like this is that if the parents walk free then it sends the wrong signal back into these communities which view women as valuable chattels and outsiders as inferiors.

[Apache]

SLacKer said:

What Honour is there in killing anyone? Abusing or killing people is the most dishonourable thing there is.

Agree on the weakness of the prosecution so far, they must have more evidence than this.

You don't understand because you are not a backward savage with the parenting skills of a Wolf Spider

[Pints]

singlecoil said:

He might be referring to Abraham and Isaac.

That'd be Jewish and I don't really consider that a Western religion.
Just because we've let Israel into the Eurovision contest, doesn't mean they're Western.

[Raja]

Honour Killings in the UK are rare compared to the more frequent case of beating the crap out of your daughter because she doesn't want to marry her cousin. This was and remains a common occurrence in the places where I was raised.

As for why the Indians or the Sikhs don't do it - my experience is that they do, although it is decreasing. Why its decreasing? - as has been said absolutely to do with awareness raising and women's empowerment projects. I also suspect that there has been a shift in these communities from going back to the 'homeland' to marry their children to their village cousins. I know that this remains if not the norm then at least a common occurrence for UK's Pakistani and indeed Muslim communities.

[singlecoil]

Pints said:

singlecoil said:

He might be referring to Abraham and Isaac.

That'd be Jewish and I don't really consider that a Western religion.
Just because we've let Israel into the Eurovision contest, doesn't mean they're Western.

I was just guessing about what he might be referring to. Much of the Old Testamment has a bearing on Christianity, and most people would think of that as a Western religion.

[Jimbeaux]

Pints said:

singlecoil said:

He might be referring to Abraham and Isaac.

That'd be Jewish and I don't really consider that a Western religion.
Just because we've let Israel into the Eurovision contest, doesn't mean they're Western.

Chritianity also evolved from Abraham and Issac; whereas Islam evolved from Abraham and Ishmael. Evolved, see what I did there?

[MadMullah]

DonkeyApple said:

In which case, what is the catalyst for blurting out now? Often people finally talk when others have come forward or if they suddenly feel old enough to be safe or if they are simply forced to by someone. In this example, I wonder if the catalyst was that having been caught robbing her parents house maybe her lifestyle had become a little too 'Western' and she suddenly feared the same treatment as her sister.

The real risk of cases like this is that if the parents walk free then it sends the wrong signal back into these communities which view women as valuable chattels and outsiders as inferiors.

i think this was probably it. she knew she wouldnt be able to live her life as she wnated to with those freedoms. i doubt she feared that the same would befall her as it did her sister. the parents are under suspicion as it is from the first kid.

the fact that her story has come out now has clouded the whole case. i do think, unless there is some evidence that has been uncovered from before the first time they were charged, they will be aquitted - her story doesnt carry enough weight to be a smoking gun.

[Gun]

I do wish they'd stop calling them honour killings. Just tell it like it is and call them murders.

[Mermaid]

Gun said:

I do wish they'd stop calling them honour killings. Just tell it like it is and call them murders.

Barbaric family murders/killings.

[Apache]

Gun said:

I do wish they'd stop calling them honour killings. Just tell it like it is and call them murders.

I disagree, it is important to highlight the fact that backward savages live among us and their vile behaviour needs to be stopped

[Pickled Piper]

MadMullah said:

it was prevailant in the 1980's amongst the Sikh community but they did something about it - they stuck up for the women and created support groups and did out reach work

I wouldn't say it was prevalent but it has occurred (and still does) in the Sikh community. However, as your post points out the community was also responsible for eradicating it rather than brushing it under the carpet.

Most importantly members of the Pakistani community need to realize they are responsible for their own destiny and stop blaming others or circumstances for the behaviour of their backward members.

pp

[Mermaid]

Pickled Piper said:

...Most importantly members of the Pakistani community need to realize they are responsible for their own destiny and stop blaming others or circumstances for the behaviour of their backward members.

I think I am on safe ground suggesting Pakistanis probably have the worst reputation amongst the immigrants over the last few decades. Or at least more mention of them in the Press.

[Pickled Piper]

Raja said:

As for why the Indians or the Sikhs don't do it - my experience is that they do, although it is decreasing. Why its decreasing? - as has been said absolutely to do with awareness raising and women's empowerment projects. I also suspect that there has been a shift in these communities from going back to the 'homeland' to marry their children to their village cousins. I know that this remains if not the norm then at least a common occurrence for UK's Pakistani and indeed Muslim communities.

Wrong - Sikh teachings forbid marriage between close relatives and always have done. Even in the most rural villages, it has always been standard practice and custom for the families of a prospective Sikh couple to carry out genealogy checks going back four or five generations - to make sure there is no potential for marrying a relative. The idea of marrying a cousin is abhorrent to most Sikhs.

Statistics in the Birmingham area show that it is the norm amongst the Pakistani community. It's just that as the wider community start frowning and expressing their distaste at the practice, the Pakistani community just go about it more secretively.

pp

[MadMullah]

Pickled Piper said:

Most importantly members of the Pakistani community need to realize they are responsible for their own destiny and stop blaming others or circumstances for the behaviour of their backward members.

well as i said its a double edged sword

its fair enough to go around saying stop honour killings, empower women etc but then some sections of the community will take the empower bit as let the daughters do what they want, dress as they want and that doesnt wash down well with alot of people.

whilst thankfully the honour killings bit isnt as at outbreak levels the whole daughter is getting westernised a bit too much lets send her back home is very much prevailant.

I was one of the people who was hoping the govt would tighten up alot more to stop this from happening. It reminds me of a scene in that make bradford british where the old woman was watching a wedding video of a girl who got married from Pakistan. the old woman asked her so what made you go for him? to which the girl replied that she went for a holiday met him and they got on and got married. this was a month long holiday. no courtship nothing. and coincidence he was a member of the extended family.

there's far too many cases where when they do come here and get their stay they tend to show true colours and the girl is stuck even more with an ass she didnt want in the first place. sadly even in the small town i live in this is a very common theme.

I know my parents came over and are immigrant i'm actually one too but i was a wee baby when i was smuggled over. (JK!!!!!) but these days the alot of the guys in Pakistan do have a thinking that the streets are paved with gold here, there's white girls to be shagged and they'll be the boss etc.

It should be far strict. the girl and guy should be together and living for a while before he can be considered for a temp visa. he has to be shown to be educated with valid certification to a high standard and the period till he gets his full stay should be lengthened and the female empowered with the option of sending him back.

[Pesty]

Pickled Piper said:

Wrong - Sikh teachings forbid marriage between close relatives and always have done. Even in the most rural villages, it has always been standard practice and custom for the families of a prospective Sikh couple to carry out genealogy checks going back four or five generations - to make sure there is no potential for marrying a relative. The idea of marrying a cousin is abhorrent to most Sikhs.

Statistics in the Birmingham area show that it is the norm amongst the Pakistani community. It's just that as the wider community start frowning and expressing their distaste at the practice, the Pakistani community just go about it more secretively.

pp

Indeed if I recal the statistics correctly two thrids of all all babies born with deformities are of Pakistani origin.
There is a big study going on at Bradford royal IIRC.


One daft question about this case I have not seen explained.

The Ahmeds claim she drank bleech instead of mouthwash by mistake(does anybody drink mouthwash? anyway) ok so it was an accident right? so why did they take the body away and hide it?

[MadMullah]

Pesty said:

One daft question about this case I have not seen explained.

The Ahmeds claim she drank bleech instead of mouthwash by mistake(does anybody drink mouthwash? anyway) ok so it was an accident right? so why did they take the body away and hide it?

no the bleach drinking incident happened earlier on in Pakistan. they took her hospital etc that time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shafilea_Ah...

[HarryW]

Murder is sub human imho, murdering your own child is sub human to the power of a 100.

Lets face it what ever way you cut it, it is premeditated cold bloodied murder.

[Pesty]

MadMullah said:

no the bleach drinking incident happened earlier on in Pakistan. they took her hospital etc that time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shafilea_Ah...

Thanks

[Pickled Piper]

MadMullah said:

whilst thankfully the honour killings bit isnt as at outbreak levels the whole daughter is getting westernised a bit too much lets send her back home is very much prevailant.

I was one of the people who was hoping the govt would tighten up alot more to stop this from happening. It reminds me of a scene in that make bradford british where the old woman was watching a wedding video of a girl who got married from Pakistan. the old woman asked her so what made you go for him? to which the girl replied that she went for a holiday met him and they got on and got married. this was a month long holiday. no courtship nothing. and coincidence he was a member of the extended family.

You are illustrating my point exactly. Why do you see it as the Governments responsibility to prevent forced marriages? It is largely a Pakistani community problem why lay the blame elsewhere? Also, if the Government takes too strong a stance they are accused of picking on the Pakistani community and spreading Islamaphobia. The Mulsim vote is strong in many areas - just ask George Galloway.

You've mentioned yourself that you have seen the Sikh community sort out it's own problems. The Sikh community is the better for it and as a result well regarded for it by others. Don't you see that the Pakistani community should start looking inwards and sort it's own problems rather than blaming their issues on Islamaphobia?

Sorry, not having a pop at you personally, you just happen to be the one posting.

pp