Are labour antisemitic?
Discussion
Biker 1 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It all comes down to very fine definitions... The IHRA definition has been adopted by the Labour party - but not in full.
This is the bit I don't understand. The definition was presumably thrashed out in a way that is acceptable to all involved, so why can't the labour party sign up like anybody else? The Jewish population in the UK is tiny, so losing their vote will not make much difference in terms of MPs, but why carry on down this path?I live in North West London and number several Jewish people (religious and atheist) among my friends. I am by no means an ardent Zionist and I find many hard line Zionists hard to take. I'm not Jewish myself, but members of my family were murdered or imprisoned by the Nazis.
I also have Muslim friends and can see that most interactions between them are difficult, with even moderate or non-religious Muslims commonly the victims of racist attitudes from Jewish people. But that is another story for another time.
We do need to ask ourselves why otherwise calm and rational people are feeling so unsettled. Given the Holocaust, it would be a very complacent individual who could stand up with confidence and say it could never happen here. But, yes, even aiming off for any hyper-sensitivity, Britian's Jewish communities clearly feel under siege.
The biggest pointer to how seriously we should take the perception of anti-semitism and how worried the Jewish communities are is their unprecedented unanimity. The old joke is "two Jews, three views". The three national Jewish papers have for the first time ever managed to share an editorial. My Jewish friends find it highly amusing that Corbyn has achieved what even Moses couldn't and united all Jews!
The Labour apparatus (rather than individual MPs), at the very least, clearly not does care enough about these concerns to assuage these fears. And Billy Bragg's response was contemptible. At worst, Labour now conflates Jewishness itself with the State of Israel and international capitalist conspiracies (the Soros theme). Either way, Labour's position is not right and needs calling out.
I suspect much of Labour's problem has to do with electoral arithmetic in that Labour can win many more seats by pandering to Muslim victimhood than it can by coming out for tolerance and equality. So there is a disconnect between its long and honourable anti-racist and egalitarian history and rhetoric and current raw political calculation.
I suspect that Corbyn et al have been happy to try to ride both horses and are now coming unstuck. Worse, there are signs, with their response to being challenged, that they have decided to take the stick and consolidate the anti-semitic vote for Labour.
Add to the mood music the number of physical attacks on Jewish people, and people perceived to be Jewish, (mainly by Muslims but also by Eastern Europeans) in places like Golders Green, and desecration of graves, and I can understand why fear is on the increase. From recollection, I'd say the local weekly paper - the Hampstead and Highgate Express - will be reporting an incident at least a couple of times a month.
What makes me despair is that the Tories have finally largely rid themselves of the casual golf club anti-semitism (which was largely snobbery) that marked it out for so long, only for a much more virulent strain to emerge in the Labour Party.
It is little wonder that people who have had family here for four or five generations are openly considering leaving the country.
I am not often ashamed of my country but I am coming perilously close.
I also have Muslim friends and can see that most interactions between them are difficult, with even moderate or non-religious Muslims commonly the victims of racist attitudes from Jewish people. But that is another story for another time.
We do need to ask ourselves why otherwise calm and rational people are feeling so unsettled. Given the Holocaust, it would be a very complacent individual who could stand up with confidence and say it could never happen here. But, yes, even aiming off for any hyper-sensitivity, Britian's Jewish communities clearly feel under siege.
The biggest pointer to how seriously we should take the perception of anti-semitism and how worried the Jewish communities are is their unprecedented unanimity. The old joke is "two Jews, three views". The three national Jewish papers have for the first time ever managed to share an editorial. My Jewish friends find it highly amusing that Corbyn has achieved what even Moses couldn't and united all Jews!
The Labour apparatus (rather than individual MPs), at the very least, clearly not does care enough about these concerns to assuage these fears. And Billy Bragg's response was contemptible. At worst, Labour now conflates Jewishness itself with the State of Israel and international capitalist conspiracies (the Soros theme). Either way, Labour's position is not right and needs calling out.
I suspect much of Labour's problem has to do with electoral arithmetic in that Labour can win many more seats by pandering to Muslim victimhood than it can by coming out for tolerance and equality. So there is a disconnect between its long and honourable anti-racist and egalitarian history and rhetoric and current raw political calculation.
I suspect that Corbyn et al have been happy to try to ride both horses and are now coming unstuck. Worse, there are signs, with their response to being challenged, that they have decided to take the stick and consolidate the anti-semitic vote for Labour.
Add to the mood music the number of physical attacks on Jewish people, and people perceived to be Jewish, (mainly by Muslims but also by Eastern Europeans) in places like Golders Green, and desecration of graves, and I can understand why fear is on the increase. From recollection, I'd say the local weekly paper - the Hampstead and Highgate Express - will be reporting an incident at least a couple of times a month.
What makes me despair is that the Tories have finally largely rid themselves of the casual golf club anti-semitism (which was largely snobbery) that marked it out for so long, only for a much more virulent strain to emerge in the Labour Party.
It is little wonder that people who have had family here for four or five generations are openly considering leaving the country.
I am not often ashamed of my country but I am coming perilously close.
Biker 1 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It all comes down to very fine definitions... The IHRA definition has been adopted by the Labour party - but not in full.
This is the bit I don't understand. The definition was presumably thrashed out in a way that is acceptable to all involved, so why can't the labour party sign up like anybody else? The Jewish population in the UK is tiny, so losing their vote will not make much difference in terms of MPs, but why carry on down this path?And that answer is that they don't want to accept the existence of the Israeli state.
I had a discussion about this with a staunchly Momentum friend the other day. She was absolutely adamant that the Israeli state did not legitimately exist, and that it was not anti-semitic to say that - because the state was founded by a political decision, and any political decision can be legitimately questioned.
I can kind of see the point - but it seems more than a bit tenuous to argue it 70 years later. It's a simple fact of life that Israel does exist, and is not going away. With that in mind, continuing to argue the point in the face of such bad political coverage seems to be pushing way past pragmatism, and sticking to a fairly minor point of principle despite the cost in political capital.
The sensible thing to do would be to shrug, accept reality, and just shut the story down. But that's not the way the political extremes work... And this is DEFINITELY down to the extremes within the left.
I heard someone make what I felt was a very valid point on LBC today.
It went along the lines of if Jeremy Corbyn was pals with some KKK members and frequently popped into a KKK meeting or invited his KKK chums around for dinner, all in the name of promoting peace mind you, and he had some other chums who said the slave trade wasn't such a big deal and actually there might not have been a slave trade, there would be f
king uproar and rightly so.
Why is it different when it's Hamas and similar and it's Jews rather than black people?
It went along the lines of if Jeremy Corbyn was pals with some KKK members and frequently popped into a KKK meeting or invited his KKK chums around for dinner, all in the name of promoting peace mind you, and he had some other chums who said the slave trade wasn't such a big deal and actually there might not have been a slave trade, there would be f
king uproar and rightly so.Why is it different when it's Hamas and similar and it's Jews rather than black people?
psi310398 said:
.....
We do need to ask ourselves why otherwise calm and rational people are feeling so unsettled. Given the Holocaust, it would be a very complacent individual who could stand up with confidence and say it could never happen here. But, yes, even aiming off for any hyper-sensitivity, Britian's Jewish communities clearly feel under siege.
....
A good and interesting post.We do need to ask ourselves why otherwise calm and rational people are feeling so unsettled. Given the Holocaust, it would be a very complacent individual who could stand up with confidence and say it could never happen here. But, yes, even aiming off for any hyper-sensitivity, Britian's Jewish communities clearly feel under siege.
....
One question though, why does the Jewish community feel more 'under siege' due to the ramblings of the opposition? I can understand those concerns coming forward 'if' Labour were in government, but they are just the opposition and have so far proved to be totally incapable of influencing the actions of the Government due to their multi-level incompetence.
Why 'under siege' now, under this Tory government?
Not only does Labour have a ridiculously high level of tolerance for antisemitism, but they actively obstruct measures to counter hatred and discipline those who speak out against it.
Just look at this video of Corbyn accusing Israel of being behind an ISIS Islamist attack on Egyptian soldiers.
He then sits quietly whilst a convicted Hamas terrorist who murdered Israelis is interviewed. This is just one example of many where he is affiliated with extremists. I mean how have we got to the point where this is seriously the leader of the Labour party?
He's a dangerous and divisive anti-Semite who could cause some very serious problems if he ever got into power.
Just look at this video of Corbyn accusing Israel of being behind an ISIS Islamist attack on Egyptian soldiers.
He then sits quietly whilst a convicted Hamas terrorist who murdered Israelis is interviewed. This is just one example of many where he is affiliated with extremists. I mean how have we got to the point where this is seriously the leader of the Labour party?
He's a dangerous and divisive anti-Semite who could cause some very serious problems if he ever got into power.
The Surveyor said:
A good and interesting post.
One question though, why does the Jewish community feel more 'under siege' due to the ramblings of the opposition? I can understand those concerns coming forward 'if' Labour were in government, but they are just the opposition and have so far proved to be totally incapable of influencing the actions of the Government due to their multi-level incompetence.
Why 'under siege' now, under this Tory government?
Most Jews reluctantly accept latent antisemitsm as a fact of life.One question though, why does the Jewish community feel more 'under siege' due to the ramblings of the opposition? I can understand those concerns coming forward 'if' Labour were in government, but they are just the opposition and have so far proved to be totally incapable of influencing the actions of the Government due to their multi-level incompetence.
Why 'under siege' now, under this Tory government?
It is when that racism becomes overt and populist that they begin to get very concerned.
I do believe that one cannot walk in another man's shoes.
Whether a Jew, black, homosexual or any other section of society that is targeted by racism or phobia.
However empathetic and sincere one is you are not that person.
Corbyn himself probably isn't antisemitic, but he is certainly happy to associate with people who are, and they have absolutely been emboldened within the party itself. just look at his double standards - with Syria or Russia we mustn't jump to conclusions and need and independent UN enquiry before taking action, with Israel it's immediate condemnation and demand for sanctions.
What I also find interesting is a lot of the people who are so vocally pro-Palestinian say they are fighting against oppression, yet are virtually silent when it goes on anywhere else in the world. Over 4000 Palestinians have been killed by Syria since the start of the civil war - where is the condemnation of that? It's almost as if there's something specific about Israel that they don't like.......
What I also find interesting is a lot of the people who are so vocally pro-Palestinian say they are fighting against oppression, yet are virtually silent when it goes on anywhere else in the world. Over 4000 Palestinians have been killed by Syria since the start of the civil war - where is the condemnation of that? It's almost as if there's something specific about Israel that they don't like.......
Not wanting to turn this into an Israel thread but the Labour Party (the Left in general) really struggle with minorities that don't fit their narrative. That narrative being that you can separate the world into oppressors and oppressed. The oppressors can do no good and the oppressed can do no bad. If that means they have to use stereotypical, prejudiced language to paint an oppressor as bad, then they will. This usually works fine when dealing with Republicans/UKIP/Tories etc, but more difficult when dealing with a minority that doesn't neatly fit the oppressed label to their liking. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.
Labour are antisemitic, they see Hamas and other related groups as oppressed and therefore unable to do harm, and they see Israel as oppressors and therefore unable to do any good. Therefore they have to minimise any evidence that the Jews that make up the Israeli state are (or ever have been) oppressed (questioning the historical significance of antisemitism and oppression) and maximise the traits they feel paint the Israelis as oppressors (rich, elitist,bigoted, intolerant, bullies etc)
Labour seem to be blind to the fact that Israel has the power to wipe the likes of Hamas off the planet with the push of a button and choose not to do so. Imagine how long Israel would remain on the map if the likes of Hamas (or any number of Arab states) had the same military capabilities as Israel.
Labour are antisemitic, they see Hamas and other related groups as oppressed and therefore unable to do harm, and they see Israel as oppressors and therefore unable to do any good. Therefore they have to minimise any evidence that the Jews that make up the Israeli state are (or ever have been) oppressed (questioning the historical significance of antisemitism and oppression) and maximise the traits they feel paint the Israelis as oppressors (rich, elitist,bigoted, intolerant, bullies etc)
Labour seem to be blind to the fact that Israel has the power to wipe the likes of Hamas off the planet with the push of a button and choose not to do so. Imagine how long Israel would remain on the map if the likes of Hamas (or any number of Arab states) had the same military capabilities as Israel.
The Surveyor said:
A good and interesting post.
One question though, why does the Jewish community feel more 'under siege' due to the ramblings of the opposition? I can understand those concerns coming forward 'if' Labour were in government, but they are just the opposition and have so far proved to be totally incapable of influencing the actions of the Government due to their multi-level incompetence.
Why 'under siege' now, under this Tory government?
Good question. I don't know but can surmise.One question though, why does the Jewish community feel more 'under siege' due to the ramblings of the opposition? I can understand those concerns coming forward 'if' Labour were in government, but they are just the opposition and have so far proved to be totally incapable of influencing the actions of the Government due to their multi-level incompetence.
Why 'under siege' now, under this Tory government?
I think the historic link between Labour and the Jewish community makes this feel like a betrayal.
Older Jewish people I know, however wealthy, would never have voted Conservative - Labour was their party and protector. It was only when Margaret Thatcher started promoting "more Estonians than Etonians" that that perception started changing. But even, today, although there are now many Tory Jews, many cling to Labour. It is almost tribal.
Add to that local effects. Most Jewish communities are perforce urban because of the need to attain critical mass to support a synagogue within walking distance and most are in cities or boroughs controlled by Labour, so day-to-day interactions will be with bodies controlled by the party.
As to the rest of it, just modern society generally. The violence and desecrations are a function of the relatively recent influx of certain immigrant communities bringing cultural and racial prejudices with them. (Which is not to say that White Brits are not guilty of attacks or description, either). And I imagine the shortages of police aren't helping.
But your guess is as good as mine, ultimately.
I was brought up in east London. According to my father, there was a large percentage who went for Mosely's pro-nazi BUF before the war. There were Jews killed by street mobs, some of which didn't reach the pro BUF/nazi papers.
The 'upper class' and the aspirants supported the BUF seemingly because it was funded by and led by those of its ilk, plus they felt threatened by the working class. There were considerable anti-Jewish sentiments as well.
After the war, the ultra right was still supported to an extent by 'them at the top' but most working class sympathy was banished by the war. My father took me to a rally supporting Max Mosley after something a friend of mine said. He wanted to show me what Max and his followers were like, and succeeded beyond his wildest. I had to promise 'not to tell your mum'. It was scary. The mob that the Mosleys brought along were thuggish, criminals in fact. There was a big difference between the ways different papers reported the ensuing fight. I had a good view - too good for my mum I bet - and it was clearly started by the Mosley thugs. They got more than they bargained for I'm told, but I'd left by then.
Max was once nicked for taking a van-load of offensive weapons to a peaceful demonstration. He got quite a telling off. There were suggestions of corruption in the way it was dealt with.
There is, for some reason, a resurgence of anti-semitic incidents and feeling in London I'm told. Whether this is, as my informant tells me, an attempt to suck up to the muslim voters or not is unknown. However, I was brought up in a 'mixed race' area and if anything the Jewish lads were treated with a certain kindness, the facts emerging after the war probably the reason. I had Jewish mates, and worked with a number of Jews. There was no difference.
It seems a tragedy that now, maybe because of the need for votes, it is coming to the fore, seemingly forced. One wonders if the reputation of Corbyn and his cronies' as anti-semitic will hurt their votes in certain areas.
I've got no beef with Jews. I am firmly of the opinion that they are just like us. I believe we must take all steps to eradicate any racial prejudice from every government rules, regs and institutions. However, I have a beef with any criticism of Israel's tactics being labelled as anti-semitic.
The 'upper class' and the aspirants supported the BUF seemingly because it was funded by and led by those of its ilk, plus they felt threatened by the working class. There were considerable anti-Jewish sentiments as well.
After the war, the ultra right was still supported to an extent by 'them at the top' but most working class sympathy was banished by the war. My father took me to a rally supporting Max Mosley after something a friend of mine said. He wanted to show me what Max and his followers were like, and succeeded beyond his wildest. I had to promise 'not to tell your mum'. It was scary. The mob that the Mosleys brought along were thuggish, criminals in fact. There was a big difference between the ways different papers reported the ensuing fight. I had a good view - too good for my mum I bet - and it was clearly started by the Mosley thugs. They got more than they bargained for I'm told, but I'd left by then.
Max was once nicked for taking a van-load of offensive weapons to a peaceful demonstration. He got quite a telling off. There were suggestions of corruption in the way it was dealt with.
There is, for some reason, a resurgence of anti-semitic incidents and feeling in London I'm told. Whether this is, as my informant tells me, an attempt to suck up to the muslim voters or not is unknown. However, I was brought up in a 'mixed race' area and if anything the Jewish lads were treated with a certain kindness, the facts emerging after the war probably the reason. I had Jewish mates, and worked with a number of Jews. There was no difference.
It seems a tragedy that now, maybe because of the need for votes, it is coming to the fore, seemingly forced. One wonders if the reputation of Corbyn and his cronies' as anti-semitic will hurt their votes in certain areas.
I've got no beef with Jews. I am firmly of the opinion that they are just like us. I believe we must take all steps to eradicate any racial prejudice from every government rules, regs and institutions. However, I have a beef with any criticism of Israel's tactics being labelled as anti-semitic.
Derek Smith said:
My father took me to a rally supporting Max Mosley after something a friend of mine said. He wanted to show me what Max and his followers were like
...
Max was once nicked for taking a van-load of offensive weapons to a peaceful demonstration.
I think you meant Oswald, Max's father....
Max was once nicked for taking a van-load of offensive weapons to a peaceful demonstration.
Derek ....Criticise the Israeli government all you wish.
The huge majority of Jews will welcome your views on the subject.
Try to make that criticsm constructive and contextual.
It's nice to know that you have " no beef " with Jews, as you so quaintly put it.
Jews are Homo Sapiens,just like the rest of humanity, there are "good" Jews and "bad" Jews and ones in between.
They are not an homogenous group that think and behave in a similar way.
Derek...my comments are a bit tongue in cheek......I know from your previous posts on other subjects that you're a decent bloke.
The huge majority of Jews will welcome your views on the subject.
Try to make that criticsm constructive and contextual.
It's nice to know that you have " no beef " with Jews, as you so quaintly put it.
Jews are Homo Sapiens,just like the rest of humanity, there are "good" Jews and "bad" Jews and ones in between.
They are not an homogenous group that think and behave in a similar way.
Derek...my comments are a bit tongue in cheek......I know from your previous posts on other subjects that you're a decent bloke.
Edited by avinalarf on Monday 30th July 15:32
TooMany2cvs said:
Derek Smith said:
My father took me to a rally supporting Max Mosley after something a friend of mine said. He wanted to show me what Max and his followers were like
...
Max was once nicked for taking a van-load of offensive weapons to a peaceful demonstration.
I think you meant Oswald, Max's father....
Max was once nicked for taking a van-load of offensive weapons to a peaceful demonstration.
He was a good-looking bloke, without a shadow of a doubt, and this gave rise to a number of comments by those present who were not, let's say, ultra right wing sympathisers.
My father got some of the BM's propaganda, written, he said, by Max's mother, one of the Mitford waste of spaces, and it was repugnant. Really quite shocking. It was custom made to put anyone off. I felt like washing my hands just for handling it. Here's a link to the lovely guy, ironically enough from the Daily Mail. There are others but given the DM's history, this is the prime one.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5447023/Ma...
One should not condemn the offspring for the parents' offences, but our Max seemed to relish it, unlike his half-brothers.
avinalarf said:
The Surveyor said:
A good and interesting post.
One question though, why does the Jewish community feel more 'under siege' due to the ramblings of the opposition? I can understand those concerns coming forward 'if' Labour were in government, but they are just the opposition and have so far proved to be totally incapable of influencing the actions of the Government due to their multi-level incompetence.
Why 'under siege' now, under this Tory government?
Most Jews reluctantly accept latent antisemitsm as a fact of life.One question though, why does the Jewish community feel more 'under siege' due to the ramblings of the opposition? I can understand those concerns coming forward 'if' Labour were in government, but they are just the opposition and have so far proved to be totally incapable of influencing the actions of the Government due to their multi-level incompetence.
Why 'under siege' now, under this Tory government?
It is when that racism becomes overt and populist that they begin to get very concerned.
I do believe that one cannot walk in another man's shoes.
Whether a Jew, black, homosexual or any other section of society that is targeted by racism or phobia.
However empathetic and sincere one is you are not that person.
Don't worry, psi310398 has provided a helpful response.
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