Discussion
geeteeaye said:
As regards the 'selfishness' issue - people who commit suicide are very selfish in the final act anyhow (excluding some scenarios) as it destroys the family and many lives besides their own, so presumably the affect on strangers wouldn't even come into the equation, they have gone way beyond rational thought by this point.
OK LOOK--they kill themselves to reduce their perceived burden on those they "love". Mass murder is completely another thing to a suicide on a railway track as well.
Yep, 21st century and the old stigmas are still going strong.
Some people are SO strong indeed.
In general, BTP pass these to the local force to deal.
In third-rail areas (e.g. the old Southern Railways area and the old LMS line from Manchester to Bury [is that still third-rail?]), the locals arrive and require power turned off. According to my sources down here, BTP don't do this automatically.
The SIO then opens a murder policy book and treats the scene as the locus of a potential murder. Train movements that might compromise the scene or safety of officers and others on the track are stopped (so in a sense the OP was fortunate that his train proceeded).
From experience (as a rail traveller to and from London) it takes at least two hours for services to start moving again, assuming the death is attributed to accident or suicide. Fortunately, there have been no recent murders on the railway tracks I use - the last was Maartje Tamboezer in 1986, one of the 'Railway Killer's victims. [A friend led the Operation Hart investigation team.] I imagine that - as with road closures - the police might close all running lines in the immediate vicinity to an on-track murder, and keep them closed for a long period (possibly several days). If the lines were into London, the chaos would be unbelievable.
Streaky
In third-rail areas (e.g. the old Southern Railways area and the old LMS line from Manchester to Bury [is that still third-rail?]), the locals arrive and require power turned off. According to my sources down here, BTP don't do this automatically.
The SIO then opens a murder policy book and treats the scene as the locus of a potential murder. Train movements that might compromise the scene or safety of officers and others on the track are stopped (so in a sense the OP was fortunate that his train proceeded).
From experience (as a rail traveller to and from London) it takes at least two hours for services to start moving again, assuming the death is attributed to accident or suicide. Fortunately, there have been no recent murders on the railway tracks I use - the last was Maartje Tamboezer in 1986, one of the 'Railway Killer's victims. [A friend led the Operation Hart investigation team.] I imagine that - as with road closures - the police might close all running lines in the immediate vicinity to an on-track murder, and keep them closed for a long period (possibly several days). If the lines were into London, the chaos would be unbelievable.
Streaky
streaky said:
In general, BTP pass these to the local force to deal.
In third-rail areas (e.g. the old Southern Railways area and the old LMS line from Manchester to Bury [is that still third-rail?]), the locals arrive and require power turned off. According to my sources down here, BTP don't do this automatically.
The SIO then opens a murder policy book and treats the scene as the locus of a potential murder. Train movements that might compromise the scene or safety of officers and others on the track are stopped (so in a sense the OP was fortunate that his train proceeded).
From experience (as a rail traveller to and from London) it takes at least two hours for services to start moving again, assuming the death is attributed to accident or suicide. Fortunately, there have been no recent murders on the railway tracks I use - the last was Maartje Tamboezer in 1986, one of the 'Railway Killer's victims. [A friend led the Operation Hart investigation team.] I imagine that - as with road closures - the police might close all running lines in the immediate vicinity to an on-track murder, and keep them closed for a long period (possibly several days). If the lines were into London, the chaos would be unbelievable.
Streaky
Had to look that case up didn't I. May those two men die in the most horrific way imaginable, if there is any justice.In third-rail areas (e.g. the old Southern Railways area and the old LMS line from Manchester to Bury [is that still third-rail?]), the locals arrive and require power turned off. According to my sources down here, BTP don't do this automatically.
The SIO then opens a murder policy book and treats the scene as the locus of a potential murder. Train movements that might compromise the scene or safety of officers and others on the track are stopped (so in a sense the OP was fortunate that his train proceeded).
From experience (as a rail traveller to and from London) it takes at least two hours for services to start moving again, assuming the death is attributed to accident or suicide. Fortunately, there have been no recent murders on the railway tracks I use - the last was Maartje Tamboezer in 1986, one of the 'Railway Killer's victims. [A friend led the Operation Hart investigation team.] I imagine that - as with road closures - the police might close all running lines in the immediate vicinity to an on-track murder, and keep them closed for a long period (possibly several days). If the lines were into London, the chaos would be unbelievable.
Streaky
dan101smith said:
I was on a train a few years back that went through a closed station in Kent and hit a girl who was sat over the edge of the same platform.
After about an hour of being sat outside the station (around midnight, or just after) some rail workers were wandering around the train - I put my head out of the carriage window to see what was what, to spy them pulling a trainer - complete with foot, up the the mid shin - out from between the wheels.
In credit (?) to the rail chaps, they barely flinched.
Not pleasant, and I doubt I'll ever forget it, so God only knows what they make of it.
After about an hour of being sat outside the station (around midnight, or just after) some rail workers were wandering around the train - I put my head out of the carriage window to see what was what, to spy them pulling a trainer - complete with foot, up the the mid shin - out from between the wheels.
In credit (?) to the rail chaps, they barely flinched.
Not pleasant, and I doubt I'll ever forget it, so God only knows what they make of it.
Railworker said:
Hey Dave
I've got you the last bit for that coffee table your making
I've got you the last bit for that coffee table your making
freecar said:
Has it never dawned on people that the only loser in a suicide is the person who loses their life ....
I'm sure you don't mean that, but if you do you are very wrong.I have 'known' four suicides, one very close, one a bit close and two more distant. One old, two young and one ill and assisted. Two an absolutely horrible shock, one just shocking and one expected.
In all four there was grief and anguish left behind to varying degrees. In all four the person I'm sure felt they did the right thing for themselves, and maybe for their families.
Suicide is a selfish act, by definition. It's to the 'benefit' of the person, as they inevitably think it's the best way forward (discounting the very very few who do carry it out as a shock or punishment to another). Do they take others feelings into account? I'm sure they think they do, but as is clearly highlighted these are very difficult times and they are most likely not thinking straight to say the least.
Are they all mentally ill? I would say two out of the four cases I knew were not. I would also hazard a pure guess that most if not all who commit suicide in a dramatic way (for which read desperate) such as jumping in front of trains or off buildings are definitely not in a right frame of mind to be able to carry out such a desperate act and thus yes, mentally ill.
Is suicide a selfish act, yes undoubtedly. It doesn't however mean they were necessarily selfish people.
Thoughts as always, with the families, the people unfortunately involved and all the poor tortured souls who feel this is an option open to them.
Boshly said:
freecar said:
Has it never dawned on people that the only loser in a suicide is the person who loses their life ....
I'm sure you don't mean that, but if you do you are very wrong.I have 'known' four suicides, one very close, one a bit close and two more distant. One old, two young and one ill and assisted. Two an absolutely horrible shock, one just shocking and one expected.
In all four there was grief and anguish left behind to varying degrees. In all four the person I'm sure felt they did the right thing for themselves, and maybe for their families.
Suicide is a selfish act, by definition. It's to the 'benefit' of the person, as they inevitably think it's the best way forward (discounting the very very few who do carry it out as a shock or punishment to another). Do they take others feelings into account? I'm sure they think they do, but as is clearly highlighted these are very difficult times and they are most likely not thinking straight to say the least.
Are they all mentally ill? I would say two out of the four cases I knew were not. I would also hazard a pure guess that most if not all who commit suicide in a dramatic way (for which read desperate) such as jumping in front of trains or off buildings are definitely not in a right frame of mind to be able to carry out such a desperate act and thus yes, mentally ill.
Is suicide a selfish act, yes undoubtedly. It doesn't however mean they were necessarily selfish people.
Thoughts as always, with the families, the people unfortunately involved and all the poor tortured souls who feel this is an option open to them.
You know nothing of suicide.
Until you've choked down nearly 200 pills and watched your heart beating through your chest as you slip away while the ambulance man frantically tries to stop you dying in fron of your mum who's sitting there terrified then you don't know at all.
I'm sorry you experienced a loss but tell me something.
What did these people gain from committing suicide? As by definition "selfish" means you get something while somebody else doesn't, even if you didn't really want it yourself. Now how is somebody killing themselves getting something out of it? They get nothing, blackness, no dreams, just nothingness, I know, I've been there.
Why do you feel the need to (pathetically) psycho-analyse the people you knew and condemn what they did? When somebody is suffering from a very real, very debilitating illness, why do you feel the need to critiscize their lack of control over it?
There is one word to descrive suicide.
Tragic.
For ALL concerned
My brother wasn't selfish, far from it. He was a beaten man. A f
king, great, big, huge, beautiful, brute of a man but a beaten one all the same.
I had to deal with the 2 viruses that were his ex-wife and ex-girlfriend after he threw himself off the 5th floor of a car park in Luton 3 years ago.
And in dealing with them I had a first hand feeling and knowledge of what that poor, poor man, My Brother had to deal with.
fking s the pair of them.
Oh and in our shock and grief when arriving at the scene to pick up his car from the 5th floor, my Dad asked the girls who worked in then gym below the car park for a mop and bucket to wash off the blood from the pavement. That moment and other has broken me forever. My poor Dad has never been the same.
I don't blame my brother one bit, I just wish he could of been stronger and asked me for help, instead of keeping it hidden and bottling it up inside.
I am not going to open anymore of these suicide threads as I can't take it anymore, reading the selfish v the reality debates is to me now nothing more than prick waving, and upsetting.
Got to find a quiet corner of site now to pull my self together.
king, great, big, huge, beautiful, brute of a man but a beaten one all the same.I had to deal with the 2 viruses that were his ex-wife and ex-girlfriend after he threw himself off the 5th floor of a car park in Luton 3 years ago.
And in dealing with them I had a first hand feeling and knowledge of what that poor, poor man, My Brother had to deal with.
f
king s the pair of them.Oh and in our shock and grief when arriving at the scene to pick up his car from the 5th floor, my Dad asked the girls who worked in then gym below the car park for a mop and bucket to wash off the blood from the pavement. That moment and other has broken me forever. My poor Dad has never been the same.
I don't blame my brother one bit, I just wish he could of been stronger and asked me for help, instead of keeping it hidden and bottling it up inside.
I am not going to open anymore of these suicide threads as I can't take it anymore, reading the selfish v the reality debates is to me now nothing more than prick waving, and upsetting.
Got to find a quiet corner of site now to pull my self together.
freecar said:
I'm sorry if this offends but you are full of it.
No apology necessary, your opinion, agreeable or disagreeable, doesnt offend me, and this is only the internet.freecar said:
You know nothing of suicide.
Until you've choked down nearly 200 pills and watched your heart beating through your chest as you slip away while the ambulance man frantically tries to stop you dying in fron of your mum who's sitting there terrified then you don't know at all.
Whilst you may be more familiar and have far more knowledge of your (tragic sounding) case I dont think you can justifiably say "I know nothing of suicide". I will also add that you may know nothing of the four cases that have touched my life in varying ways.Until you've choked down nearly 200 pills and watched your heart beating through your chest as you slip away while the ambulance man frantically tries to stop you dying in fron of your mum who's sitting there terrified then you don't know at all.
To use a trivial analogy, does the football fan know nothing about football? The player may know more but does that mean all the people who watch but dont play know nothing?
freecar said:
I'm sorry you experienced a loss but tell me something.
What did these people gain from committing suicide? As by definition "selfish" means you get something while somebody else doesn't, even if you didn't really want it yourself. Now how is somebody killing themselves getting something out of it? They get nothing, blackness, no dreams, just nothingness, I know, I've been there.
Selfish, to me anyway, means doing something for one's self, "concerned primarily with one own interests". What did these people gain from committing suicide? As by definition "selfish" means you get something while somebody else doesn't, even if you didn't really want it yourself. Now how is somebody killing themselves getting something out of it? They get nothing, blackness, no dreams, just nothingness, I know, I've been there.
If "these people" didnt 'gain' something why would they do it? Why does anybody kill themselves? I guess at that moment in time it feels the 'right' thing to do. As you rightly point out, thats a purely amateurish analysis as in my mind. Regrettably thats all I have to go by. More than happy to be directed to some (simple'ish) educational reading on the matter.
Your comments will always be far more emotive than mine but sometimes emotions can get in the way of reality. Not necesarily here, but thats a fact!
freecar said:
Why do you feel the need to (pathetically) psycho-analyse the people you knew and condemn what they did? When somebody is suffering from a very real, very debilitating illness, why do you feel the need to critiscize their lack of control over it?
I dont know where you read in any condemnation? Psycho analysis maybe, but as I mentioned before I have to be able to make some sense of it all for my own sanity. Thats how I work. It has done me well to date. The two people I knew who in my opinion were not mentally ill were my Grandfather who had always said "I'll go when the time is right" and a friends brother who due to physical illness took himself off to Dignitas. One affected thiose around him more than the other.
I have condemned no-one in my statements above. I do feel anger at two in particular but thats my anger. Nothing to do with you, them or anyone else.
Justified? I think so.
Justifiable to others? I Don't give a monkey's, my feelings, my choice, f
k off and leave me be (not aimed at you, but at anyone who would ask me to justify my feelings)freecar said:
There is one word to descrive suicide.
Tragic.
For ALL concerned
The most apt thing you have posted.Tragic.
For ALL concerned
As I mentioned previously, my sympathies and thoughts to anyone who is suffering such dark and difficult feelings, and I guess you were, but my sympathies also to all those other bystanders (and I mean friends and family mainly but also anyone else who may get drawn in) affected by such a difficult situation.
AS a person IMHO you have the right to feel how you wish, to do what you wish (within reason) and to end your life if you wish. But dont for one moment think that your feelings are more important than others' or that other people don't get affected just because you are hurting. In my continued amateur mind, mental illness masks this.
I dont mean to offend/affect/dispute or anything, just my thoughts. Read and discard as you see fit.
freecar said:
I'm sorry if this offends but you are full of it.
You know nothing of suicide.
Until you've choked down nearly 200 pills and watched your heart beating through your chest as you slip away while the ambulance man frantically tries to stop you dying in fron of your mum who's sitting there terrified then you don't know at all.
Do you?You know nothing of suicide.
Until you've choked down nearly 200 pills and watched your heart beating through your chest as you slip away while the ambulance man frantically tries to stop you dying in fron of your mum who's sitting there terrified then you don't know at all.
Rollcage said:
A good few years ago a train I was on passed a body that was still uncovered by the side of the track - it wasn't a pretty sight seeing the twisted and headless remains of a person. It gave me nightmares for a long time afterwards, and I complained directly to BR, but just got the brushoff.
Several passengers did see the body yesterday ,the siganller gave me authority to pass the scene when he shouldn't have.In all fairness we would have been sat just north of Congelton for a few hours otherwise. Network Rail (this morning)are saying the signaller was unaware of the body.So the conversation I had with him stating the location of the body in relation to my own train and the Northern service must have been in my own head!Luckly all conversation are recorded so I'd like to see Notwork rail get out of that, tape being checked as of today.BTP have ultimate say on training running in such situations.It's only after they have finished on scene that Network staff clean up.I have a mate who worked as an undertaker. They used to have a checklist of body parts that had to be accounted for before they could leave the scene. 
I also know another chap who drives trains out of St Pancras who has had more than one jumper. He tells one story of hitting something in the middle of the night and jumping out of the cab with a torch to see what it was and all he could see was the head facing him in the distance with nothing attached to it.
In my opinion it is a selfish way to go, it has completely fked him up mentally. There are plenty of other ways to top yourself without inflicting misery on others. If that isn't selfish then I don't know what is? Of course the usual suspects will say I know nothing etc. But the joy of the interweb is being allowed to have an opinion on matters!
I also know another chap who drives trains out of St Pancras who has had more than one jumper. He tells one story of hitting something in the middle of the night and jumping out of the cab with a torch to see what it was and all he could see was the head facing him in the distance with nothing attached to it.
In my opinion it is a selfish way to go, it has completely f
ked him up mentally. There are plenty of other ways to top yourself without inflicting misery on others. If that isn't selfish then I don't know what is? Of course the usual suspects will say I know nothing etc. But the joy of the interweb is being allowed to have an opinion on matters!Hi I was redirected to your site and noticed the thread by w124bob on the fatility in Congleton yesterday.
I don't want to fall out with anyone but it was not suicide could all members please understand this.
I agree with the posts on it is not fair on the driver etc and I totally agree.
I am a local resident in Congleton and I just ask you can accept this was a terrible accident from a young man who was sitting on the bridge and fell off. The bridge in question is a main road and many people sit on it if the bus stop is full. The railway line runs under the bridge.
There is rumour of suicide in the town as the lad had an argument with his girlfriend not long before he fell but witnesses all state he fell he did not mean to jump.
I appreciate your decorum in this and hopefully if I post again on here as I am a huge car fan huge trackday fan and qualified car technician It will be of a different nature.
Many Thanks Tom.
I don't want to fall out with anyone but it was not suicide could all members please understand this.
I agree with the posts on it is not fair on the driver etc and I totally agree.
I am a local resident in Congleton and I just ask you can accept this was a terrible accident from a young man who was sitting on the bridge and fell off. The bridge in question is a main road and many people sit on it if the bus stop is full. The railway line runs under the bridge.
There is rumour of suicide in the town as the lad had an argument with his girlfriend not long before he fell but witnesses all state he fell he did not mean to jump.
I appreciate your decorum in this and hopefully if I post again on here as I am a huge car fan huge trackday fan and qualified car technician It will be of a different nature.
Many Thanks Tom.
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