Bus stop in Jerusalem bombed.

[Victor McDade]

Jimbeaux said:

Mermaid said:

Victor McDade said:

I agree, I think it's unfair to compare the two. Hamas will deliberately target Israeli civilians with their rockets and the the Israelis have no choice but to retaliate during which civilians are sadly killed.

But I don't think you can talk about the loathsome acts of violence by the likes of Hamas without addressing the elephant in the room which is the illegal occupation of land which does not belong to Israel.

To be frank, I find the act of kicking out inhabitants from an area then illegally moving your own people in (all in the name of security) equally as despicable as the cowardly methods used by the likes of Hamas.

These neighbours deserve each other.

So true, and so sad.

Israel needs a moderate leadership, and that means Netanyahu needs to make way. And the Yanks need to start withdrawing support.

Moderate leader or not, that will not help. When are people going to understand this? Israel could give them everything they want tomorrow and Hamas, etc would still find a reason to attack. The palestinians are a focus point used by the ilk to maintain hate and their own relevance, thus, power.

I don't really care much for the Palestinians Jim (I think the word itself is a bit silly) but I am talking about the Arabs who formerly lived in Israel and were expelled and fled the various wars post 1948. Do you think these refugees should be allowed back to their homes? If Jews from all around the world have a 'right to return' to a land their ancestors lived on a couple of thousands of years ago (I don't see a problem with this btw) then why shouldn't Arabs who lived on the same land only a few decades ago not have the same right?

[MX7]

Victor McDade said:

But I don't think you can talk about the loathsome acts of violence by the likes of Hamas without addressing the elephant in the room which is the illegal occupation of land which does not belong to Israel.

I can. It has nothing to do with it, unless you want every thread about Israel to go down the same tedious path.

[Mermaid]

Victor McDade said:

I don't really care much for the Palestinians Jim (I think the word itself is a bit silly) but I am talking about the Arabs who formerly lived in Israel and were expelled and fled the various wars post 1948. Do you think these refugees should be allowed back to their homes? If Jews from all around the world have a 'right to return' to a land their ancestors lived on a couple of thousands of years ago (I don't see a problem with this btw) then why shouldn't Arabs who lived on the same land only a few decades ago not have the same right?

Double standards have prevented a settlement. The wall must come down, the Israeli's need to be "more" generous about the land, the US must pour billions to improve the lot for the Arabs.

Ordinary Israeli's want security, that's all. Is there really a difference between a Jew & and an Arab?

[Jimbeaux]

Victor McDade said:

Jimbeaux said:

Mermaid said:

Victor McDade said:

I agree, I think it's unfair to compare the two. Hamas will deliberately target Israeli civilians with their rockets and the the Israelis have no choice but to retaliate during which civilians are sadly killed.

But I don't think you can talk about the loathsome acts of violence by the likes of Hamas without addressing the elephant in the room which is the illegal occupation of land which does not belong to Israel.

To be frank, I find the act of kicking out inhabitants from an area then illegally moving your own people in (all in the name of security) equally as despicable as the cowardly methods used by the likes of Hamas.

These neighbours deserve each other.

So true, and so sad.

Israel needs a moderate leadership, and that means Netanyahu needs to make way. And the Yanks need to start withdrawing support.

Moderate leader or not, that will not help. When are people going to understand this? Israel could give them everything they want tomorrow and Hamas, etc would still find a reason to attack. The palestinians are a focus point used by the ilk to maintain hate and their own relevance, thus, power.

I don't really care much for the Palestinians Jim (I think the word itself is a bit silly) but I am talking about the Arabs who formerly lived in Israel and were expelled and fled the various wars post 1948. Do you think these refugees should be allowed back to their homes? If Jews from all around the world have a 'right to return' to a land their ancestors lived on a couple of thousands of years ago (I don't see a problem with this btw) then why shouldn't Arabs who lived on the same land only a few decades ago not have the same right?

That sounds reasonable but do you believe they really want to or even remember the place? IIRC, Arabs living there were told to leave by other Arab nations as the Israelis were going to be destroyed, before the five nations attacked and were defeated.

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

Victor McDade said:

I don't really care much for the Palestinians Jim (I think the word itself is a bit silly) but I am talking about the Arabs who formerly lived in Israel and were expelled and fled the various wars post 1948. Do you think these refugees should be allowed back to their homes? If Jews from all around the world have a 'right to return' to a land their ancestors lived on a couple of thousands of years ago (I don't see a problem with this btw) then why shouldn't Arabs who lived on the same land only a few decades ago not have the same right?

Double standards have prevented a settlement. The wall must come down, the Israeli's need to be "more" generous about the land, the US must pour billions to improve the lot for the Arabs.

Ordinary Israeli's want security, that's all. Is there really a difference between a Jew & and an Arab?

The U.S. does pour billions into the Arabs. Actually, we give more aid to the "Palestinians" than do all of the oil-rich "brother" nations combined. Isn't that somewhat ironic?

[Mermaid]

Jimbeaux said:

The U.S. does pour billions into the Arabs. Actually, we give more aid to the "Palestinians" than do all of the oil-rich "brother" nations combined. Isn't that somewhat ironic?

Source? is that the amount that went into Arafat's bank account?

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

Jimbeaux said:

The U.S. does pour billions into the Arabs. Actually, we give more aid to the "Palestinians" than do all of the oil-rich "brother" nations combined. Isn't that somewhat ironic?

Source? is that the amount that went into Arafat's bank account?

Here is one. As to Arafat; I am quite certain the Billion + he died with came from that pot and others.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf

Edited by Jimbeaux on Thursday 24th March 14:59

[Victor McDade]

Jimbeaux said:

That sounds reasonable but do you believe they really want to or even remember the place?

I don't know but that's their decision to make and they should be given a choice. Or at the very least be compensated for the loss of their homes and land.

Jimbeaux said:

IIRC, Arabs living there were told to leave by other Arab nations as the Israelis were going to be destroyed, before the five nations attacked and were defeated.

Yes many of the Arabs living there left because of the Israeli-Arab war(s) thus the argument goes that the invading Arab nations share a responsibility for the refugees.

I can't see a two state solution ever working and I can't see Israel letting the refugees back in (it would change the demographics of the country and effectively turn it into a Muslim majority one).

I think the best solution is to compensate the Arabs for their land and pay them to go and live amongst the various other Arab nations.

It's not perfect but realistically I can't see anything else working.

[Mermaid]

Jimbeaux said:

The source is everywhere; go-a-Googling. As to Arafat; I am quite certain the Billion + he died with came from that pot and others.

I did, and the numbers are not the ones you had in mind. No doubt there are other websites with different numbers.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

Jimbeaux said:

The source is everywhere; go-a-Googling. As to Arafat; I am quite certain the Billion + he died with came from that pot and others.

I did, and the numbers are not the ones you had in mind. No doubt there are other websites with different numbers.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

I said aid, not military aid. I said nothing about comparison to Israel. My point was US aidto PLO vs. Arab aid. I gave you an official Congressional report and you linked a propaganda blog. Here it is again. The US aid versus the Arab aid:

http://go.redirectingat.com/?id=1044X509854&xs...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...

[Jimbeaux]

Victor McDade said:

I think the best solution is to compensate the Arabs for their land and pay them to go and live amongst the various other Arab nations.

It's not perfect but realistically I can't see anything else working.

That's just it; those "brother" nations who profess to care so much, will not let them come live on their lands, money or not.

[Mermaid]

Jimbeaux said:

That's just it; those "brother" nations who profess to care so much, will not let them come live on their lands, money or not.

A one-state solution with equal rights for all may be just too dangerous for the Jews, and I cannot see a majority of Israeli Jews being willing to accept it. And yet that is the correct answer.

[Mr Sparkle]

Mermaid said:

I did, and the numbers are not the ones you had in mind. No doubt there are other websites with different numbers.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

Why would the US give military aid to Hamas?

[Mermaid]

Jimbeaux said:

I said aid, not military aid. I said nothing about comparison to Israel. My point was US aidto PLO vs. Arab aid. I gave you an official Congressional report and you linked a propaganda blog. Here it is again. The US aid versus the Arab aid:

http://go.redirectingat.com/?id=1044X509854&xs...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...

Thank you for those links, and I suppose the Washington Post is also propaganda. In the other link, it states at the outset
"Since the signing of the Oslo Accord in 1993 and the establishment of limited Palestinian self rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1994, the U.S. government has committed over $3.5
billion in bilateral assistance to the Palestinians.

Isn't that amount about the same as what the US provided Israel each year in military/economic aid?

[Ozzie Osmond]

Mermaid said:

A one-state solution with equal rights for all may be just too dangerous for the Jews, and I cannot see a majority of Israeli Jews being willing to accept it. And yet that is the correct answer.

A significant part of the issue for Israeli Jews is that they would, or would quite soon, comprise only a minority of the population.

In other words Israel = Arab state, also starring some Isralei Jews.

I think it's fair to say they will stop at nothing to avoid full democracy.

[Mermaid]

Ozzie Osmond said:

A significant part of the issue for Israeli Jews is that they would, or would quite soon, comprise only a minority of the population.

In other words Israel = Arab state, also starring some Isralei Jews.

I think it's fair to say they will stop at nothing to avoid full democracy.

Agreed, in fact they had to import Russian Jews to keep number sensible for the Arab citizens were breeding fast.

The Arabs will say, Palestine = Jewish state, with displaced/persecuted Arabs.

Some walls need to be torn down & trust instilled - religion divides them.

What a nice country - Jerusalem offers the best falafel-in pitta.

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

Jimbeaux said:

I said aid, not military aid. I said nothing about comparison to Israel. My point was US aidto PLO vs. Arab aid. I gave you an official Congressional report and you linked a propaganda blog. Here it is again. The US aid versus the Arab aid:

http://go.redirectingat.com/?id=1044X509854&xs...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...

Thank you for those links, and I suppose the Washington Post is also propaganda. In the other link, it states at the outset
"Since the signing of the Oslo Accord in 1993 and the establishment of limited Palestinian self rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1994, the U.S. government has committed over $3.5
billion in bilateral assistance to the Palestinians.

Isn't that amount about the same as what the US provided Israel each year in military/economic aid?

Are you being deliberatly thick? I am not comparing the amount they get to Israel, that is not my point. My point is that the U.S. gives more combined than approximately two dozen Arab nations do. Note the amount promised by them and what they actually gave, even after oil quadrupled in price. If they care so much, why do they give less money than the "Great Satan"?

[Mermaid]

Jimbeaux said:

Are you being deliberatly thick? I am not comparing the amount they get to Israel, that is not my point. My point is that the U.S. gives more combined than approximately two dozen Arab nations do. Note the amount promised by them and what they actually gave, even after oil quadrupled in price. If they care so much, why do they give less money than the "Great Satan"?

Jimbeaux said:

The U.S. does pour billions into the Arabs. Actually, we give more aid to the "Palestinians" than do all of the oil-rich "brother" nations combined. Isn't that somewhat ironic?

My point was about the US, you introduced the other Arab states to justify the heavily biased approach by the US towards the Israelis vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

In summary.

US aid to Israel every year = £3billion +, the same amount it has given to the Palestinian in the previous 17 years. Your statement suggests they get billions on an ongoing basis.

Top marks to the US for it's aid to Arabs, and zero marks to the other Arab states.

But in the pivotal role the US (& only the US) plays for peace in that region, perhaps they should have been more even handed.

[enioldjoe]

Victor McDade said:

Jimbeaux said:

Mermaid said:

Victor McDade said:

I agree, I think it's unfair to compare the two. Hamas will deliberately target Israeli civilians with their rockets and the the Israelis have no choice but to retaliate during which civilians are sadly killed.

But I don't think you can talk about the loathsome acts of violence by the likes of Hamas without addressing the elephant in the room which is the illegal occupation of land which does not belong to Israel.

To be frank, I find the act of kicking out inhabitants from an area then illegally moving your own people in (all in the name of security) equally as despicable as the cowardly methods used by the likes of Hamas.

These neighbours deserve each other.

So true, and so sad.

Israel needs a moderate leadership, and that means Netanyahu needs to make way. And the Yanks need to start withdrawing support.

***Moderate leader or not, that will not help. When are people going to understand this? Israel could give them everything they want tomorrow and Hamas, etc would still find a reason to attack. The palestinians are a focus point used by the ilk to maintain hate and their own relevance, thus, power***.

I don't really care much for the Palestinians Jim (I think the word itself is a bit silly) but I am talking about the Arabs who formerly lived in Israel and were expelled and fled the various wars post 1948. Do you think these refugees should be allowed back to their homes? If Jews from all around the world have a 'right to return' to a land their ancestors lived on a couple of thousands of years ago (I don't see a problem with this btw) then why shouldn't Arabs who lived on the same land only a few decades ago not have the same right?

Who originally refused to make an Arab Muslim state?

From May '48 until June '67, East Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Gaza strip and the Golan Heights were under the total control of Arab Muslims. If they believed there should be a Palestinian Muslim Arab State beyond Jordan, why didn't they establish one when they had nearly twenty years to do so? Now Israel is supposed to do something they didn't want to do themselves and saw no need for?

There was one country what offered an Palestinian Muslim Arab state.

Who said we will give to the Muslim Turks what their own leaders, the Brits and the UN wouldn't give them? One nation said we will give them a state.

Barak said we're willing to give back (in total of Camp David and Oslo 2), 97% of the land captured in self defence in 1967. They only wanted 3% to re establish the Jewish settlements taken and destroyed in the 20's and 30's.They only wanted their communities back and holy sites like Hebron. They would keep 3% and in exchange for that 3% an equivilant amount of good land would be given. All they wanted was peace.

How did (then) Arafat respond? He said...no. And then called for 1M martyrs and put bombs on Egged buses.

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

Jimbeaux said:

Are you being deliberatly thick? I am not comparing the amount they get to Israel, that is not my point. My point is that the U.S. gives more combined than approximately two dozen Arab nations do. Note the amount promised by them and what they actually gave, even after oil quadrupled in price. If they care so much, why do they give less money than the "Great Satan"?

Jimbeaux said:

The U.S. does pour billions into the Arabs. Actually, we give more aid to the "Palestinians" than do all of the oil-rich "brother" nations combined. Isn't that somewhat ironic?

My point was about the US, you introduced the other Arab states to justify the heavily biased approach by the US towards the Israelis vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

In summary.

US aid to Israel every year = £3billion +, the same amount it has given to the Palestinian in the previous 17 years. Your statement suggests they get billions on an ongoing basis.

Top marks to the US for it's aid to Arabs, and zero marks to the other Arab states.

But in the pivotal role the US (& only the US) plays for peace in that region, perhaps they should have been more even handed.

Perhaps. However, the "Palestinians" are a small demographic relatively. Even more to the point, it is difficult to keep that money out of the hands of a few corrupt individuals as it is. Do you believe more money will stop up the hole in the bottom of the bucket? And again, I would like to see the Arabs step up.....in regards to the Palestinians and in the Libyan affair.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 25th March 11:21