Should remainers vote for the Libs?

[andymadmak]

blindswelledrat said:

I agree that I don't blame Brexit voters for the division. It is the issue itself that is the great divider and naturally I am equally responsible for the division as you. As to the levels of division, I suppose that in incalculable so there is no victor in that discussion, but in my eyes this has divided us more than any other issue in my lifetime be that by class, colour, creed or anything else.
That you admit short-term pain means that you do recognise everything I have said. If you accepted that all along, then fair enough, but this is not typical.
And your cry of "Ah a remain voter opening up with insults - how typical" is a little hypocritical given the insult I was replying to which claimed that someone like myself was stupid enough to actually want everything to go tits up.
Anyway, this kind of conversation is perfectly indicative of the division I am talking about. There are no absolutes and none of us can tell the future but we are both certain we are correct in this and both contemptuous of one anothers views. In real life we are probably both average middle class white British blokes who those who know us would describe as 'normal' hence should naturally get on, and yet you and your views are so alien to me that it feels like we come from completely different countries i.e. you are more foreign to me than 90% of immigrants and very likely vice versa.

Thanks for this answer. (genuine) - although your perception that I thought you were stupid because i said that some Remain people wanted things to go wrong is simply not the case. In other words you were replying to an insult I did not intend to make, nor do I believe I have made!
What I was saying is that I have observed here and elsewhere that some Remain voters are so passionate in their beliefs that valediction for their position can only come from things going tits up - evidence in part comes from people on here who have openly wished bad things on others simply because of the way they choose to vote, - and that cannot be right.

Likewise, whilst it is reasonable for some to assert that the EU has a powerful hand in the upcoming negotiations, it is unreasonable for those people to claim that the UK has no cards of its own - many of which are also extremely powerful. I suppose I just object to the mantra chanted by some on the Remain side that the UK is marching towards an utterly unstoppable slaughter. All that kind of thinking does is undermine the UKs negotiating position and empower the EU. We have to enter the negotiations strongly and fight for the best deal we can. Those carping and "told you so -ing" from the sidelines a a hindrance to that position.

I would only correct one other thing as far as my own thinking is concerned, and that is that I am NOT contemptuous of your views or those who think like you. I honestly try to stay away from things like "hate, contempt" etc.
I do honestly try to consider what the other guy is saying, ( or at least I think I do!!) but just like you, I struggle sometimes to understand the mindset at play.

[bobbo89]

egor110 said:

1- what a dillema for all those young voters who got the lib dems the coalition seat and we're then shafted with a tuition fees turn around.

They weren't shafted though were they? It was never going to happen as part of a coalition government, to think it would have done is just moronic!

[AnotherClarkey]

bobbo89 said:

They weren't shafted though were they? It was never going to happen as part of a coalition government, to think it would have done is just moronic!

Are they going to vote for the party that introduced tuition fees in the first place and subsequently tripled them?

[bobbo89]

AnotherClarkey said:

Are they going to vote for the party that introduced tuition fees in the first place and subsequently tripled them?

Well they do seem to have lapped up Corbyn!

[egor110]

bobbo89 said:

egor110 said:

1- what a dillema for all those young voters who got the lib dems the coalition seat and we're then shafted with a tuition fees turn around.

They weren't shafted though were they? It was never going to happen as part of a coalition government, to think it would have done is just moronic!

If they voted lib dem because clegg had no tuition fees as his campaign , then yes they were duped.

[bobbo89]

egor110 said:

If they voted lib dem because clegg had no tuition fees as his campaign , then yes they were duped.

But that would only ever have happened had they won or formed a majority coalition, which they didn't, so it wasn't a U-turn.

Edited by bobbo89 on Thursday 20th April 14:04

[footnote]

VolvoT5 said:

I couldn't vote for the Lib Dems for these reasons really

1) Because they broke their biggest headline promises on PR voting and tuition fees in order to become a bit part player in the coalition government. I fail to see what they really achieved and Farron is on record basically saying they would do the same again.

2) Regardless of there you are a leaver or remainer their position on Brexit is patronising and hypocritical. "People didn't vote for X, Y or Z, we must have another vote on the final deal" seems to be their argument. They just want to ignore the result which for a party with democrat in their name is ridiculous.

3) Tim Farron is no more credible as a leader (or deputy PM perhaps) than Jeremy Corbyn. His religious views seem to colour his judgement and as such his fuzziness and voting record on gay rights issues is questionable. Again somewhat ridiculous for a 'liberal' party.

1. My understanding is that Tim Farron voted against the rise in tuition fees. I'm sad about PR and hope that one day we could have that in the UK. I think there's a lot of work to be done to persude the public of its value.

2. I think it's just as hypocritical and patronising to be told now what Brexit obviously meant when nobody knew what it meant (and still don't) at the time of the referendum.

3. All this smoke about Farron's religious views is just smoke - he's no more an extreme Christian than the vicar's daughter running the country. His voting record speaks for itself and he does not ahve 'issues' with gay people or their rights and nor does he think being gay is a sin.

I like Tim. I'll vote for him.

[blindswelledrat]

andymadmak said:

Thanks for this answer. (genuine) - although your perception that I thought you were stupid because i said that some Remain people wanted things to go wrong is simply not the case. In other words you were replying to an insult I did not intend to make, nor do I believe I have made!
What I was saying is that I have observed here and elsewhere that some Remain voters are so passionate in their beliefs that valediction for their position can only come from things going tits up - evidence in part comes from people on here who have openly wished bad things on others simply because of the way they choose to vote, - and that cannot be right.

Likewise, whilst it is reasonable for some to assert that the EU has a powerful hand in the upcoming negotiations, it is unreasonable for those people to claim that the UK has no cards of its own - many of which are also extremely powerful. I suppose I just object to the mantra chanted by some on the Remain side that the UK is marching towards an utterly unstoppable slaughter. All that kind of thinking does is undermine the UKs negotiating position and empower the EU. We have to enter the negotiations strongly and fight for the best deal we can. Those carping and "told you so -ing" from the sidelines a a hindrance to that position.

I would only correct one other thing as far as my own thinking is concerned, and that is that I am NOT contemptuous of your views or those who think like you. I honestly try to stay away from things like "hate, contempt" etc.
I do honestly try to consider what the other guy is saying, ( or at least I think I do!!) but just like you, I struggle sometimes to understand the mindset at play.

Fair enough. I don't think either of us are at the extreme edge of our voting peers and I agree with you in that things aren't as bad as some people make out, and yet I do think that we are discussing degrees of bad, as opposed to any possibility of it being an economic positive.
Contempt was a strong word and not appropriate. I always try and look at things from others points of view and I do understand may people are in a different position to me. I think 'bewilderment' is a better word. I am so certain that I am right that we will all be worse off that conversations with Brexiters feel identical to conversation with religious people. This unshakeable belief without any evidence at all to support that belief is an exact mirror image to me.
And the worst thing for me is that I believe that a large percentage of Brexit voters have been tricked into their beliefs by a constant drip feed of lies and misinformation and I worry of the double consequences (if I am right) of us all being significantly worse off and where everyones anger gets directed thereafter.

[don'tbesilly]

Mario149 said:

don'tbesilly said:

Mario149 said:

Burwood said:

Mario-how is 400 seats going to, in anyway, shape or form be dictated to by a few Lib Dems. You also fail to realise that only a tiny few will actually bring themselves to vote for a party they never have. God, bring on June 8th, like tomorrow. 7 weeks of hearing Tim Farron, Corbyn and Gina Miller prattle on about changing the incumbent. I'll take bets with anyone 5:1 the Tories get over 400 seats

By your logic no-one should have ever bothered to vote for any other party than Labour or Conservative.

Small sample and anecdotal clearly, but as of yesterday I know about a dozen friends and colleagues who have previously voted Tory all their life and will vote LD in this election. Also know a few Labour voters who will be going LD too. And that's without even asking them.

We've heard your anecdotes before.

As before, you don't have to believe them if you don't want to. I'm not claiming it as represntative of the country, merely of the people I know. Think of it along the same lines as when people who voted Leave on here say that they barely know of anyone that voted to Remain, that should help. Both are equally valid as we're all likely to associate more with peoplw who think like us.

Of my colleagues at work I'd hazard a guess that the majority of them voted to remain.
Of my friends there's a mixed bag really, probably more Leave voters, but certainly some very strong and opinionated Remain voters which makes for some interesting debates as you can imagine.

You might find it strange, but none of the remain voters have wished me ill or any type of misfortune as a result of my differing opinion and subsequent vote, and would not hold such against me should leaving the EU turn out to be the disaster you seem to think it will be.

One hopes that your friends and acquaintances that share your opinions/views, don't share the same spiteful and vindictive views and aims as you do and have expressed on this forum.

[London424]

blindswelledrat said:

London424 said:

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

The 1980's called. They want their irrelevant pantomime phrase back.

I thought it was nicer than posting what a complete load of bks you had said.

[blindswelledrat]

London424 said:

blindswelledrat said:

London424 said:

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

The 1980's called. They want their irrelevant pantomime phrase back.

I thought it was nicer than posting what a complete load of bks you had said.

It's neither really. If this is the pinnacle of your conversational skills then your opinion is irrelevant either way.

[herewego]

What are these powerful cards held by the UK?

[London424]

blindswelledrat said:

London424 said:

blindswelledrat said:

London424 said:

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

The 1980's called. They want their irrelevant pantomime phrase back.

I thought it was nicer than posting what a complete load of bks you had said.

It's neither really. If this is the pinnacle of your conversational skills then your opinion is irrelevant either way.

Can you provide a link to a bank that is moving it's corp centre to the EU?

[p1stonhead]

herewego said:

What are these powerful cards held by the UK?

Sovrentee

[blindswelledrat]

London424 said:

blindswelledrat said:

London424 said:

blindswelledrat said:

London424 said:

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

The 1980's called. They want their irrelevant pantomime phrase back.

I thought it was nicer than posting what a complete load of bks you had said.

It's neither really. If this is the pinnacle of your conversational skills then your opinion is irrelevant either way.

Can you provide a link to a bank that is moving it's corp centre to the EU?

As per my quote, your opinion is utterly irrelevant, as are your requests.

[London424]

blindswelledrat said:

London424 said:

blindswelledrat said:

London424 said:

blindswelledrat said:

London424 said:

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

The 1980's called. They want their irrelevant pantomime phrase back.

I thought it was nicer than posting what a complete load of bks you had said.

It's neither really. If this is the pinnacle of your conversational skills then your opinion is irrelevant either way.

Can you provide a link to a bank that is moving it's corp centre to the EU?

As per my quote, your opinion is utterly irrelevant, as are your requests.

So as per my quote...oh dear oh dear oh dear.

[Mario149]

don'tbesilly said:

Mario149 said:

don'tbesilly said:

Mario149 said:

Burwood said:

Mario-how is 400 seats going to, in anyway, shape or form be dictated to by a few Lib Dems. You also fail to realise that only a tiny few will actually bring themselves to vote for a party they never have. God, bring on June 8th, like tomorrow. 7 weeks of hearing Tim Farron, Corbyn and Gina Miller prattle on about changing the incumbent. I'll take bets with anyone 5:1 the Tories get over 400 seats

By your logic no-one should have ever bothered to vote for any other party than Labour or Conservative.

Small sample and anecdotal clearly, but as of yesterday I know about a dozen friends and colleagues who have previously voted Tory all their life and will vote LD in this election. Also know a few Labour voters who will be going LD too. And that's without even asking them.

We've heard your anecdotes before.

As before, you don't have to believe them if you don't want to. I'm not claiming it as represntative of the country, merely of the people I know. Think of it along the same lines as when people who voted Leave on here say that they barely know of anyone that voted to Remain, that should help. Both are equally valid as we're all likely to associate more with peoplw who think like us.

Of my colleagues at work I'd hazard a guess that the majority of them voted to remain.
Of my friends there's a mixed bag really, probably more Leave voters, but certainly some very strong and opinionated Remain voters which makes for some interesting debates as you can imagine.

You might find it strange, but none of the remain voters have wished me ill or any type of misfortune as a result of my differing opinion and subsequent vote, and would not hold such against me should leaving the EU turn out to be the disaster you seem to think it will be.

One hopes that your friends and acquaintances that share your opinions/views, don't share the same spiteful and vindictive views and aims as you do and have expressed on this forum.

To clarify, I don't think it's going to be an economic disaster where the entire country goes into meltdown and we become 3rd world, I'm pretty sure we'll plod on somehow even if it does go arse over tit, the British tend to be a bit undramatic and stoic like that. For me, as someone above wrote, it's merely about shades of bad, and specifically that we've deliberately chosen to shoot ourselves in the foot (to a greater or lesser extent) for what I see as no real gain, or certainly none that can be realised in any timescale that is remotely predictable (i.e. <10 years). If I had to make a prediction, I'd say that we're about due for another recession in the next few years given historical cycles, and all Brexit will do is exacerbate it.

I'm not sure where you're getting spiteful and vindictive from. I said a few posts ago that in an ideal world, if Brexit goes wrong, I wouldn't wish bad on anyone if there was a choice to make it all magically go away. But that's not the real world. So if there is a price to be paid and responsibiilty/cost could be shouldered according to how you voted (which obviously it can't), hypothetically I'd rather it was those who voted for Brexit to pay it rather than those who opposed it vehemently. I say hypothetical because it's not as if Brexiters would receive a demand for extra money and Remainers wouldn't

[amusingduck]

bobbo89 said:

egor110 said:

1- what a dillema for all those young voters who got the lib dems the coalition seat and we're then shafted with a tuition fees turn around.

They weren't shafted though were they? It was never going to happen as part of a coalition government, to think it would have done is just moronic!

You are right, it was never going to happen.

What is unacceptable to many is that 21 LD MPs (including Cleggy himself) voted for the tuition fees rise.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11964669

[hyphen]

egor110 said:

1- what a dillema for all those young voters who got the lib dems the coalition seat and we're then shafted with a tuition fees turn around.

Do they forget about the past to beat the conservatives or as in the the E.U vote just not bother voting then go nuts on social media when the vote didn't go there way.

Did they get shafted?

I think tuition fees were for future students only, so those that voted at 18 were probably not caught by it themselves as they were probably at Uni when it came in.

[ou sont les biscuits]

amusingduck said:

bobbo89 said:

egor110 said:

1- what a dillema for all those young voters who got the lib dems the coalition seat and we're then shafted with a tuition fees turn around.

They weren't shafted though were they? It was never going to happen as part of a coalition government, to think it would have done is just moronic!

You are right, it was never going to happen.

What is unacceptable to many is that 21 LD MPs (including Cleggy himself) voted for the tuition fees rise.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11964669

I can't say I give a monkey's about what happened in 2010. What I care about is having a Parliament that functions as a Parliament for the next two years as we negotiate Brexit. And I'll be casting my vote in a tactical way to ensure insofar as I can with my single vote, is that the show isn't being driven by the swivel eyed loon faction in the Conservative party.