Should remainers vote for the Libs?

[Burwood]

amusingduck said:

bobbo89 said:

egor110 said:

1- what a dillema for all those young voters who got the lib dems the coalition seat and we're then shafted with a tuition fees turn around.

They weren't shafted though were they? It was never going to happen as part of a coalition government, to think it would have done is just moronic!

You are right, it was never going to happen.

What is unacceptable to many is that 21 LD MPs (including Cleggy himself) voted for the tuition fees rise.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11964669

Clegg broke the majority of his election promises after the coalition was formed. In the very least the man/party is lacking in principles

[anonymous-user]

p1stonhead said:

herewego said:

What are these powerful cards held by the UK?

Sovrentee

Brooke Bond tea cards

[Hosenbugler]

VolvoT5 said:

I couldn't vote for the Lib Dems for these reasons really
2) Regardless of there you are a leaver or remainer their position on Brexit is patronising and hypocritical. "People didn't vote for X, Y or Z, we must have another vote on the final deal" seems to be their argument. They just want to ignore the result which for a party with democrat in their name is ridiculous.

I entirely and absolutley agree with this. They are deliberately trying to usurp the democratic will of the electorate , viewing said electorate with undemocratic pompous contempt.

Whilst I truly am angry with them , I'm am far more angry with myself at having voted for them in past times, and having had genuine sympathy for them the way they were handled at the past election having helped give responsible responsible government after the labour party had done what they always do, fk the economy.

So, for me the LD's are forever consigned to the s box, for not being liberal, and not being democratic. Any misfortune wreaked upon them will draw a smile from me.

[AnotherClarkey]

Hosenbugler said:

I entirely and absolutley agree with this. They are deliberately trying to usurp the democratic will of the electorate , viewing said electorate with undemocratic pompous contempt.

Whilst I truly am angry with them , I'm am far more angry with myself at having voted for them in past times, and having had genuine sympathy for them the way they were handled at the past election having helped give responsible responsible government after the labour party had done what they always do, fk the economy.

So, for me the LD's are forever consigned to the s box, for not being liberal, and not being democratic. Any misfortune wreaked upon them will draw a smile from me.

If they were to win on this basis then the democratic will of the electorate would be to halt Brexit. The will of the people is not fixed and unchanging.

[crankedup]

Simply to raise the intellect level of the debate. I voted out in the referendum and for me personally, putting aside all of the financial and political reasoning it gave me a feeling of joy to do so. As soon as my X was on the paper I returned to my teenage years, stuck up my middle finger pointing to the moon and said "'fk you eu". Very childish but by god it made me feel better in myself for doing so.

[fluffnik]

jonnyb said:

Brexit will happen, but the type is very much up for grabs.

In the unlikely event that there's still a "Britain" to do the exiting, yes.

[fluffnik]

AnotherClarkey said:

If they were to win on this basis then the democratic will of the electorate would be to halt Brexit. The will of the people is not fixed and unchanging.

Exactly.

(see also Scottish independence)

[don'tbesilly]

Mario149 said:

don'tbesilly said:

Mario149 said:

don'tbesilly said:

Mario149 said:

Burwood said:

Mario-how is 400 seats going to, in anyway, shape or form be dictated to by a few Lib Dems. You also fail to realise that only a tiny few will actually bring themselves to vote for a party they never have. God, bring on June 8th, like tomorrow. 7 weeks of hearing Tim Farron, Corbyn and Gina Miller prattle on about changing the incumbent. I'll take bets with anyone 5:1 the Tories get over 400 seats

By your logic no-one should have ever bothered to vote for any other party than Labour or Conservative.

Small sample and anecdotal clearly, but as of yesterday I know about a dozen friends and colleagues who have previously voted Tory all their life and will vote LD in this election. Also know a few Labour voters who will be going LD too. And that's without even asking them.

We've heard your anecdotes before.

As before, you don't have to believe them if you don't want to. I'm not claiming it as represntative of the country, merely of the people I know. Think of it along the same lines as when people who voted Leave on here say that they barely know of anyone that voted to Remain, that should help. Both are equally valid as we're all likely to associate more with peoplw who think like us.

Of my colleagues at work I'd hazard a guess that the majority of them voted to remain.
Of my friends there's a mixed bag really, probably more Leave voters, but certainly some very strong and opinionated Remain voters which makes for some interesting debates as you can imagine.

You might find it strange, but none of the remain voters have wished me ill or any type of misfortune as a result of my differing opinion and subsequent vote, and would not hold such against me should leaving the EU turn out to be the disaster you seem to think it will be.

One hopes that your friends and acquaintances that share your opinions/views, don't share the same spiteful and vindictive views and aims as you do and have expressed on this forum.

I'm not sure where you're getting spiteful and vindictive from

.

You've obviously forgotten your rant of a few months ago which was as I described above.

[Pooh]

ou sont les biscuits said:

I What I care about is having a Parliament that functions as a Parliament for the next two years as we negotiate Brexit. And I'll be casting my vote in a tactical way to ensure insofar as I can with my single vote, is that the show isn't being driven by the swivel eyed loon faction in the Conservative party.

Genuinely curious how you propose to do that? Voting Lib Dem won't reduce the influence of the people you call loons. I have already asked how the Lim Dems will have any significant influence over a majority Conservative government, which is the most likely outcome of the election but nobody has been able to tell me.
If your local Conservative candidate is not a "swivel eyed loon" then surely voting Conservative would be the best way to dilute the influence of the loons?

[blindswelledrat]

Hosenbugler said:

VolvoT5 said:

I couldn't vote for the Lib Dems for these reasons really
2) Regardless of there you are a leaver or remainer their position on Brexit is patronising and hypocritical. "People didn't vote for X, Y or Z, we must have another vote on the final deal" seems to be their argument. They just want to ignore the result which for a party with democrat in their name is ridiculous.

I entirely and absolutley agree with this. They are deliberately trying to usurp the democratic will of the electorate , viewing said electorate with undemocratic pompous contempt.
.

I genuinely don't understand your thought process.
You are arguing that it is outrageous to hold a democratic referendum on known facts because it is undemocratic due to the fact that we have already had one based on unknowns?
It doesn't matter in any case because if you are right that it is 'usurping the democratic will of the electorate' then the country will still vote 'leave'.
And if the country doesn't vote leave and votes remain then it is fact that 'leave' is no longer the 'democratic will of the electorate'. It is a self-defeating argument.

[Hosenbugler]

blindswelledrat said:

Hosenbugler said:

VolvoT5 said:

I couldn't vote for the Lib Dems for these reasons really
2) Regardless of there you are a leaver or remainer their position on Brexit is patronising and hypocritical. "People didn't vote for X, Y or Z, we must have another vote on the final deal" seems to be their argument. They just want to ignore the result which for a party with democrat in their name is ridiculous.

I entirely and absolutley agree with this. They are deliberately trying to usurp the democratic will of the electorate , viewing said electorate with undemocratic pompous contempt.
.

I genuinely don't understand your thought process.
You are arguing that it is outrageous to hold a democratic referendum on known facts because it is undemocratic due to the fact that we have already had one based on unknowns?
It doesn't matter in any case because if you are right that it is 'usurping the democratic will of the electorate' then the country will still vote 'leave'.
And if the country doesn't vote leave and votes remain then it is fact that 'leave' is no longer the 'democratic will of the electorate'. It is a self-defeating argument.

Platitudes.Democratically elected Parliament, asked the electorate to make a decision for them via referendum , which they duly did. Whats coming is a general election, the decision about leaving the EU has already been made,.

[Hosenbugler]

AnotherClarkey said:

Hosenbugler said:

I entirely and absolutley agree with this. They are deliberately trying to usurp the democratic will of the electorate , viewing said electorate with undemocratic pompous contempt.

Whilst I truly am angry with them , I'm am far more angry with myself at having voted for them in past times, and having had genuine sympathy for them the way they were handled at the past election having helped give responsible responsible government after the labour party had done what they always do, fk the economy.

So, for me the LD's are forever consigned to the s box, for not being liberal, and not being democratic. Any misfortune wreaked upon them will draw a smile from me.

If they were to win on this basis then the democratic will of the electorate would be to halt Brexit. The will of the people is not fixed and unchanging.

Thsi is not a referendum on being in the EU, its a general election. The decsion regarding EU membership has already been made, a democratically elected parliament voted to give the electorate that choice, which they duly did.

[footnote]

Pooh said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

I What I care about is having a Parliament that functions as a Parliament for the next two years as we negotiate Brexit. And I'll be casting my vote in a tactical way to ensure insofar as I can with my single vote, is that the show isn't being driven by the swivel eyed loon faction in the Conservative party.

Genuinely curious how you propose to do that? Voting Lib Dem won't reduce the influence of the people you call loons. I have already asked how the Lim Dems will have any significant influence over a majority Conservative government, which is the most likely outcome of the election but nobody has been able to tell me.
If your local Conservative candidate is not a "swivel eyed loon" then surely voting Conservative would be the best way to dilute the influence of the loons?

I don't think you want to hear.

The election result is not a foregone conclusion

The media and Conservatives and PH expect a stonking great Tory majority, but if the Conservatives don't get a stonking great majority it will obviously be seen as a lack of support for May's Brexit plans by the public.

So, a vote for a candidate of any opposition party is a vote against May's Brexit.

And you never know, if enough people do that, and 48% of those that could be bothered to vote were opposed to Brexit, there may not be a tory majority at all.

I think that's a fairly clear explanation of why people vote for parties other than the governing party but you'll probably maintain otherwise.

[AnotherClarkey]

Hosenbugler said:

Thsi is not a referendum on being in the EU, its a general election. The decsion regarding EU membership has already been made, a democratically elected parliament voted to give the electorate that choice, which they duly did.

If the winning party had a manifesto commitment to remain in the EU then that mandate would override a previous, non-binding, referendum IMO.

[Bill]

Hosenbugler said:

Thsi is not a referendum on being in the EU, its a general election. The decsion regarding EU membership has already been made, a democratically elected parliament voted to give the electorate that choice, which they duly did.

I'm not sure why you're struggling with this. If the LDs campaign on the basis of remaining in the EU and get enough seats to form a government then they become the democratically elected government with a mandate. No? Incoming governments change policy all the time, this is no different.

[turbobloke]

Bill said:

Hosenbugler said:

Thsi is not a referendum on being in the EU, its a general election. The decsion regarding EU membership has already been made, a democratically elected parliament voted to give the electorate that choice, which they duly did.

I'm not sure why you're struggling with this. If the LDs campaign on the basis of remaining in the EU and get enough seats to form a government then they become the democratically elected government with a mandate. No? Incoming governments change policy all the time, this is no different.

In theory. The reality is that the LibDims have as much chance of forming a government with a workable majority as I have of remembering Tim Who's surname.

Wasting a vote on useless LibDemmery is of course something that any voter is free to do. Posturing rules OK?!

[Bill]

turbobloke said:

In theory. The reality is that the LibDims have as much chance of forming a government with a workable majority as I have of remembering Tim Who's surname.

Obviously​. (It's Wossname iirc.)

[V8 Fettler]

The Lib-Dems led by a competent and charismatic leader could knock big holes in Theresa's plan's. However, if the farcical Farron remains then the Tories will walk it.

[turbobloke]

Bill said:

turbobloke said:

In theory. The reality is that the LibDims have as much chance of forming a government with a workable majority as I have of remembering Tim Who's surname.

Obviously?. (It's Wossname iirc.)

That's the one!!

[AnotherClarkey]

V8 Fettler said:

The Lib-Dems led by a competent and charismatic leader could knock big holes in Theresa's plan's. However, if the farcical Farron remains then the Tories will walk it.

Shouldn't have binned Clegg by reflex.