Grenfell - Who pays
Discussion
The Surveyor said:
The enquiry showed that the advice to remain in the flats was wrong. Had that advice not been given the enquiry says fewer people would have perished. The enquiry had all the information to hand from all the experts.
...
Also, the 'stay-put' message came from the call handlers who were based miles away from the fire
The inquiry also has the benefit of hindsight. ...
Also, the 'stay-put' message came from the call handlers who were based miles away from the fire
One would imagine the call handlers were getting info from the ground too. But who knows. Look back at a lot of disasters like this and comms go to s
t. Again, hindsight suggests they shouldn't. But in the heat of the moment a lot of stuff can happen that shouldn't - my dad was a fireman for 25yrs and some of the stories he has are eye opening.
problem is: not only the cladding, but people's appliances, lifestyles and so on. high rise living just presents far more risks.
The only safe way to continue with high rise living, would be forced inspection of every flat, maybe 6/12 mthly.
check all the gas, electrics: then deal with the issues of hoarding, smokers and so on.
in a million years, you'd never be able to do it- gain access, pay for the staff to undertake it- it'd be an infringement of 'uman rites.
as a landlord- I cannot begin to tell you how hard it is to get people to listen to common sense. for example gas servicing, we take 100's of people to court each yr to gain access to homes, so we can make sure their home is safe and equally safe for their neighbours.
as it's bonfire night, we've got tnt's/their children, setting fire to bin stores, attached to blocks of flats. one last night was in a block of 18 flats- with perhaps up to 60 residents. you've guessed it- one way in/out. pictures I've seen, look like the block is going up- thank god it was all external damage.
utterly staggering.
The only safe way to continue with high rise living, would be forced inspection of every flat, maybe 6/12 mthly.
check all the gas, electrics: then deal with the issues of hoarding, smokers and so on.
in a million years, you'd never be able to do it- gain access, pay for the staff to undertake it- it'd be an infringement of 'uman rites.
as a landlord- I cannot begin to tell you how hard it is to get people to listen to common sense. for example gas servicing, we take 100's of people to court each yr to gain access to homes, so we can make sure their home is safe and equally safe for their neighbours.
as it's bonfire night, we've got tnt's/their children, setting fire to bin stores, attached to blocks of flats. one last night was in a block of 18 flats- with perhaps up to 60 residents. you've guessed it- one way in/out. pictures I've seen, look like the block is going up- thank god it was all external damage.
utterly staggering.
austinsmirk said:
problem is: not only the cladding, but people's appliances, lifestyles and so on. high rise living just presents far more risks.
The only safe way to continue with high rise living, would be forced inspection of every flat, maybe 6/12 mthly.
check all the gas, electrics: then deal with the issues of hoarding, smokers and so on.
in a million years, you'd never be able to do it- gain access, pay for the staff to undertake it- it'd be an infringement of 'uman rites.
as a landlord- I cannot begin to tell you how hard it is to get people to listen to common sense. for example gas servicing, we take 100's of people to court each yr to gain access to homes, so we can make sure their home is safe and equally safe for their neighbours.
as it's bonfire night, we've got tnt's/their children, setting fire to bin stores, attached to blocks of flats. one last night was in a block of 18 flats- with perhaps up to 60 residents. you've guessed it- one way in/out. pictures I've seen, look like the block is going up- thank god it was all external damage.
utterly staggering.
Who wants to hear this though? Or understand the implications?The only safe way to continue with high rise living, would be forced inspection of every flat, maybe 6/12 mthly.
check all the gas, electrics: then deal with the issues of hoarding, smokers and so on.
in a million years, you'd never be able to do it- gain access, pay for the staff to undertake it- it'd be an infringement of 'uman rites.
as a landlord- I cannot begin to tell you how hard it is to get people to listen to common sense. for example gas servicing, we take 100's of people to court each yr to gain access to homes, so we can make sure their home is safe and equally safe for their neighbours.
as it's bonfire night, we've got tnt's/their children, setting fire to bin stores, attached to blocks of flats. one last night was in a block of 18 flats- with perhaps up to 60 residents. you've guessed it- one way in/out. pictures I've seen, look like the block is going up- thank god it was all external damage.
utterly staggering.
The difficulty is, ne'er do wells walk among us & their attitude (or lack of) ranges from mildly problematic to full-on villain.
It seems in the political climate today, one can't pull people up for their failings without a mob forming & whoever shouts loudest dictates which way things go.
Do you have examples of good community management, by which I mean where the locals/tenants work to self-police (to whatever extent) & make their lot better?
Reciprocating mass said:
Place your bets on grenfell tower having at least
One new story of controversy a year for the next
50 years
I didn’t know anyone affected . I hear of deaths and tragedies most days via the news etc . I found it sad . But moved on . Its not really that important to most people anymore .Its 100% been highjacked by just about every little “agenda “ group/person for their own publicity etc . I know one thing , If anyone lives in a high building like this . Given the clear chance , get out .But also . Have a hose pipe fitting inside the property . With one of these “soft” hose pipes and a spray nozzle .Might as well have mains water pressure and a chance to fight the fire if trapped .I have seen a house fire that was stopped by the guy using his bathroom shower (on a hose etc ) . Right by the door . He soaked the entire stair well to stop the fire coming up. Until the fire brigade turned up. One new story of controversy a year for the next
50 years
Pinoyuk said:
I didn’t know anyone affected . I hear of deaths and tragedies most days via the news etc . I found it sad . But moved on . Its not really that important to most people anymore .Its 100% been highjacked by just about every little “agenda “ group/person for their own publicity etc . I know one thing , If anyone lives in a high building like this . Given the clear chance , get out .But also . Have a hose pipe fitting inside the property . With one of these “soft” hose pipes and a spray nozzle .Might as well have mains water pressure and a chance to fight the fire if trapped .I have seen a house fire that was stopped by the guy using his bathroom shower (on a hose etc ) . Right by the door . He soaked the entire stair well to stop the fire coming up. Until the fire brigade turned up.
- MeToo
wiki tells me said:
On 14 June 2017, a fire broke out in the 24-storey Grenfell Tower block of flats in North Kensington, West London, at 00:54 BST; it caused 72 deaths, including those of two victims who later died in hospital. More than 70 others were injured and 223 people escaped.
I think JRM has been too harshly criticised for his comments. No way would I stay put in a building (high rise or not) with even a hint of fire, despite what the advice allegedly given by a call center operative told me.I've read some other posters stating 'but think of the stampede' - that's nuts.
I find the hardest to comprehend is the fire alarm system :
The Times said:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fire-alarm-at-g...
Fire alarms did not sound in Grenfell Tower on the night of the deadly blaze because they would have undermined the building’s “stay put” policy. The Times understands that the central-alarm system in the block was never intended to emit an alert to residents.
Instead, the signal was relayed to a private fire monitoring company employed to watch multiple alarm systems from large buildings and to distinguish between genuine and false alerts before informing the fire service.
I've done a good bit of foreign travel over the years and had to attend travel policy training and repeated 'Fire Drills'. As above it was always "Get out. Stay out."Fire alarms did not sound in Grenfell Tower on the night of the deadly blaze because they would have undermined the building’s “stay put” policy. The Times understands that the central-alarm system in the block was never intended to emit an alert to residents.
Instead, the signal was relayed to a private fire monitoring company employed to watch multiple alarm systems from large buildings and to distinguish between genuine and false alerts before informing the fire service.
Also it is was "Know your exit plan", same on a plane
- know your exit plan - feck what the 'experts' say. Know your way out.
JustALooseScrew said:
Pinoyuk said:
I didn’t know anyone affected . I hear of deaths and tragedies most days via the news etc . I found it sad . But moved on . Its not really that important to most people anymore .Its 100% been highjacked by just about every little “agenda “ group/person for their own publicity etc . I know one thing , If anyone lives in a high building like this . Given the clear chance , get out .But also . Have a hose pipe fitting inside the property . With one of these “soft” hose pipes and a spray nozzle .Might as well have mains water pressure and a chance to fight the fire if trapped .I have seen a house fire that was stopped by the guy using his bathroom shower (on a hose etc ) . Right by the door . He soaked the entire stair well to stop the fire coming up. Until the fire brigade turned up.
- MeToo
wiki tells me said:
On 14 June 2017, a fire broke out in the 24-storey Grenfell Tower block of flats in North Kensington, West London, at 00:54 BST; it caused 72 deaths, including those of two victims who later died in hospital. More than 70 others were injured and 223 people escaped.
I think JRM has been too harshly criticised for his comments. No way would I stay put in a building (high rise or not) with even a hint of fire, despite what the advice allegedly given by a call center operative told me.I've read some other posters stating 'but think of the stampede' - that's nuts.
I find the hardest to comprehend is the fire alarm system :
The Times said:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fire-alarm-at-g...
Fire alarms did not sound in Grenfell Tower on the night of the deadly blaze because they would have undermined the building’s “stay put” policy. The Times understands that the central-alarm system in the block was never intended to emit an alert to residents.
Instead, the signal was relayed to a private fire monitoring company employed to watch multiple alarm systems from large buildings and to distinguish between genuine and false alerts before informing the fire service.
I've done a good bit of foreign travel over the years and had to attend travel policy training and repeated 'Fire Drills'. As above it was always "Get out. Stay out."Fire alarms did not sound in Grenfell Tower on the night of the deadly blaze because they would have undermined the building’s “stay put” policy. The Times understands that the central-alarm system in the block was never intended to emit an alert to residents.
Instead, the signal was relayed to a private fire monitoring company employed to watch multiple alarm systems from large buildings and to distinguish between genuine and false alerts before informing the fire service.
Also it is was "Know your exit plan", same on a plane
- know your exit plan - feck what the 'experts' say. Know your way out.
I know of a number of 20 storey blocks in Manchester that still have the same cladding on them as Grenfell, it could easily happen again. There’s no way I’d live in one but they house society’s poorest.
Cupramax said:
The problem appears the firebrigade told them to stay put in their flats. i totally disagree with this blame game, its of no use. I must say the female cheif fire officer seems piss poor from what ive seen of her. No doubt another attempt at box ticking rather than giving it to the best candidate.
This seems pretty accurate. I am aware of a recent development (last 2 years) 
pavarotti1980 said:
Criticism for fire service for Grenfell and also the response to Manchester bombing seems to indicate that there is a huge problem with the way the fire service operates. It must need some serious culture changes to move forward.
Spot on, they are utterly risk averse. As an organisation, usually not the people on the ground dealing with the issue (if they are allowed see Manchester bomb)RammyMP said:
I’m involved with a few high rise refurbs since Grenfell and it’s alarming how bad some of them are. People keep saying they’d just get out but many of these blocks haven’t got fire alarms, just domestic smoke alarms, if you were fast asleep you wouldn’t know the block was on fire until your smoke alarm goes off and by that time it’s too late.
I know of a number of 20 storey blocks in Manchester that still have the same cladding on them as Grenfell, it could easily happen again. There’s no way I’d live in one but they house society’s poorest.
See above about the stupidity of "silent fire alarms" as agreed by the fire service as anything over 85DB (if I recall correctly the DB level) causes confusion and panic I know of a number of 20 storey blocks in Manchester that still have the same cladding on them as Grenfell, it could easily happen again. There’s no way I’d live in one but they house society’s poorest.
apart from the floor in question signed off by the incompetent fire brigade numpties) I would be happy to live in any of the other 4 of the 5 floors of the building in question without any problem at all. And I don't take my life lightly.There are many other points raised in this thread by various people. Stairway cramming? Funny that in the evacuation tests we had in a 9 story building with over a 150 people a floor that wasn't an issue.
Also the 5 storey building I referenced earlier had over 100 apartments in it therefore not dissimilar in numbers (although height) to Grenfell and cramming certainly wasn't an issue.
Thankyou4calling said:
Talk of a stampede is a bit much as there weren’t actually that many people in Grenfell.
Could comfortably have evacuated if that were the instruction.
Also why would every hotel i've ever been in have a nice little drawing of the escape routes and you are told if you hear the alarm get out?, hotels can have far more people in them than a block of flats. Could comfortably have evacuated if that were the instruction.
Murph7355 said:
The Surveyor said:
The enquiry showed that the advice to remain in the flats was wrong. Had that advice not been given the enquiry says fewer people would have perished. The enquiry had all the information to hand from all the experts.
...
Also, the 'stay-put' message came from the call handlers who were based miles away from the fire
The inquiry also has the benefit of hindsight. ...
Also, the 'stay-put' message came from the call handlers who were based miles away from the fire
One would imagine the call handlers were getting info from the ground too. But who knows. Look back at a lot of disasters like this and comms go to s
t. Again, hindsight suggests they shouldn't. But in the heat of the moment a lot of stuff can happen that shouldn't - my dad was a fireman for 25yrs and some of the stories he has are eye opening.
The advice they gave was obviously on the false assumption the fire would be contained
Add to this how quickly the fire spread - it went all up one entire side in 25 minutes.
Mojooo said:
......
The advice they gave was obviously on the false assumption the fire would be contained
Add to this how quickly the fire spread - it went all up one entire side in 25 minutes.
25 minutes is a lifetime in a fire, certainly long enough for everyone to escape safely had people recognised that the fire was being fueled by the cladding and wouldn't be contained.The advice they gave was obviously on the false assumption the fire would be contained
Add to this how quickly the fire spread - it went all up one entire side in 25 minutes.
The Surveyor said:
Mojooo said:
......
The advice they gave was obviously on the false assumption the fire would be contained
Add to this how quickly the fire spread - it went all up one entire side in 25 minutes.
25 minutes is a lifetime in a fire, certainly long enough for everyone to escape safely had people recognised that the fire was being fueled by the cladding and wouldn't be contained.The advice they gave was obviously on the false assumption the fire would be contained
Add to this how quickly the fire spread - it went all up one entire side in 25 minutes.
Once that building didn't work as expected. The fire service were stuck in an impossible situation caused by their own processes. They need to work on making sure that doesn't happen again.
austinsmirk said:
minutes ago, I have had a conversation with a tnt, in a high rise, as to why he shouldn't have dumped his sofa in a communal corridor.
simply doesn't get it.
the day after grenfell, I had a similar conversation with another genius with a 15kg gas bottle on a BBQ, wheeled under a flight of stairs in a block of flats.
he couldn't see my concern either.
I don't get this, because our housing association has a habit of removing anything flammable including doormats outside properties.simply doesn't get it.
the day after grenfell, I had a similar conversation with another genius with a 15kg gas bottle on a BBQ, wheeled under a flight of stairs in a block of flats.
he couldn't see my concern either.
I've no idea how flammable the hallway carpet is but I won't be making this point to them in case it's only fire retardant for 30 minutes which they will then deem inadequate and demand residents pay thousands to replace it.
- re: sofa, yes we'll remove, but you still have to have a conversation with an idiot about risk.
good example though of risk- high rise block, has gas in. you get sold flats- thus you have no control over what people do inside.
we had some safety gas valves to fit in ever flat (regardless of tenure)
we discovered an owner who had been attempting his own combi boiler repairs with found second hand parts. engineers had barely seen anything ever, so dangerous. at that point with the risk, it was safer to sort it at our cost, even though he's an owner.
we even once removed ever single gas cooker and pipework to 3 x high rises, and provided electric cookers to remove the risk.
council's love chip pan fires, or lighting cigs - whilst drunk and falling/passing out over gas cookers.
good example though of risk- high rise block, has gas in. you get sold flats- thus you have no control over what people do inside.
we had some safety gas valves to fit in ever flat (regardless of tenure)
we discovered an owner who had been attempting his own combi boiler repairs with found second hand parts. engineers had barely seen anything ever, so dangerous. at that point with the risk, it was safer to sort it at our cost, even though he's an owner.
we even once removed ever single gas cooker and pipework to 3 x high rises, and provided electric cookers to remove the risk.
council's love chip pan fires, or lighting cigs - whilst drunk and falling/passing out over gas cookers.
Its begs the question. Do certain nationalities /cultures have a almost zero clue about “Health and safety “? Because from what I have seen it is a FAR TOO HIGH % That seem never ever to get their heads around this matter. Starts off with a reluctance to even strap kids in cars etc . They just don’t get it ! Ok, White chav families are included at times.
Pinoyuk said:
Its begs the question. Do certain nationalities /cultures have a almost zero clue about “Health and safety “? Because from what I have seen it is a FAR TOO HIGH % That seem never ever to get their heads around this matter. Starts off with a reluctance to even strap kids in cars etc . They just don’t get it !
Who are you referring to. Which nationality?The Mad Monk said:
Pinoyuk said:
Its begs the question. Do certain nationalities /cultures have a almost zero clue about “Health and safety “? Because from what I have seen it is a FAR TOO HIGH % That seem never ever to get their heads around this matter. Starts off with a reluctance to even strap kids in cars etc . They just don’t get it !
Who are you referring to. Which nationality?Here's a 'cultural' pic of wiring I took last year.
Not really relevant but I had a Chinese friend who lived in London. Who one day very proudly told me his family business had a really good year only 26 people had died in his factories (Steel Industry).
The attitude to life is very different in some parts of the world.
Not saying that has anything to do with what happened at Grenfell.
The attitude to life is very different in some parts of the world.
Not saying that has anything to do with what happened at Grenfell.
Pinoyuk said:
Its begs the question. Do certain nationalities /cultures have a almost zero clue about “Health and safety “? Because from what I have seen it is a FAR TOO HIGH % That seem never ever to get their heads around this matter. Starts off with a reluctance to even strap kids in cars etc . They just don’t get it ! Ok, White chav families are included at times.
Well if you're from a lesser developed country, the products you've historically used don't exactly have CE safety certification and you're likely improvising at lot of the time where you can't get a proper baby seat, roof rack, extension at allWhilst everyone is discussing what the FB could have (should have?) done differently regarding evacuation or stay put, the elephant in the room to my mind is how did a fridge/freezer catch fire and why didn't the tenant (or sub-letter) have a fire extinguisher to put it out?
The reports at the time suggested that he left the building asap and alerted the emergency services when outside.
I look forward to reading part 2 of this investigation.
The reports at the time suggested that he left the building asap and alerted the emergency services when outside.
I look forward to reading part 2 of this investigation.
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