Statues and our tolerance of history
Discussion
GAjon said:
What should happen to the bloke who said this’s statues?
“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white “
The problem is that this is far more nuanced than that.“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white “
Lincoln was trying to get slavery abolished and in doing so wanted to alleviate the fears of the white majority of what the consequences of that might be. Like many of his generation he undoubtedly had racial prejudice but you have to put his remarks in context and their essentially defensive nature.
smifffymoto said:
Like all other arguments this has turned into shouting down any body with an opposing view.
How far do we take it,remove statues,knock down buildings built with slave money,demolish the Albert dock in Liverpool because the warehouses stored goods in bought by slave trade money.
I’ve no problem with an opposing view, the problem is when you get posts like Jazzy Jags about Ainsley Harriot and IR35s posts, theres not really a sensible debate to be had is there.How far do we take it,remove statues,knock down buildings built with slave money,demolish the Albert dock in Liverpool because the warehouses stored goods in bought by slave trade money.
Im not even 100% myself where i stand in the issue but it’s quite obvious that its about how slavery is seen to be celebrated and not erasing it from history or knocking down buildings, or the bloody EU or Hillary Clinton.
Powerfully Built PSC Director - Outside IR35 said:
If you think this is all about black lives and/or slavery then you’re seriously deluded. Most people couldn’t give a f
k about what happened last week let alone 300 - 400 years ago. No, this is about something else: the destabilisation of two democratically elected governments.
Interesting yet highly implausible view on things but it highlights an issue.k about what happened last week let alone 300 - 400 years ago. No, this is about something else: the destabilisation of two democratically elected governments.People are reluctant to accept these are real grievances because it means they have to confront an uncomfortable truth.
So instead they're lured by conspiracy theories in which there's some great power - some imagined white blokes, presumably - in control of it all.
Powerfully Built PSC Director - Outside IR35 said:
things
That is peak NP&L.George Floyd might have been a spark, but as we know if a spark falls on something that is combustible, then it needs to be addressed. The sensible course of action would not to allow something big and combustible to build up whilst making sparks...
Limiting this reply to the issue of statues though, I think it is right that the UK re evaluates at it's memorials to our past.
Part of the BLM movement's issue seems to be the casual blindness to there even being a problem about how historical factors affect current day lives.
I don't think this can be equated with erasing all our history. It is still British history after all, and belongs to the British (as everyone else's history belongs to them)
But amongst a wider series of measures needed, I don't see why statues of those heavily involved in/ operating slavery shouldn't be reviewed for the appropriateness of public display?
It shouldn't need saying, but this topic is about those who "do" have issues with said statues, not those that "don't".
I am a bit concerned with the "mob rule" aspect though - but culpability sits to some extent with public bodies that refused to listen previously. Hopefully something sensible can be worked out.
Ian
Ian Geary said:
George Floyd might have been a spark, but as we know if a spark falls on something that is combustible, then it needs to be addressed. The sensible course of action would not to allow something big and combustible to build up whilst making sparks...
Limiting this reply to the issue of statues though, I think it is right that the UK re evaluates at it's memorials to our past.
Part of the BLM movement's issue seems to be the casual blindness to there even being a problem about how historical factors affect current day lives.
It was a spark of an event that happened thousands of miles away in a different country with a different police force, seized upon by an left wing mob, many of whom were middle class whites.Limiting this reply to the issue of statues though, I think it is right that the UK re evaluates at it's memorials to our past.
Part of the BLM movement's issue seems to be the casual blindness to there even being a problem about how historical factors affect current day lives.
They may think they are American but they are not.
In respect to black people living in this country they have had a far different history to black people in America. Slavery was abolished far earlier in the British Empire for a start and once it was gone they then lived in communities, in the Caribbean, that were majority black.
You cannot help contrast their performance with that of the Ugandan Asians and think that perhaps the problem is far more to do with attitudes to education and rates of family breakdown than an institution abolished 200 years ago.
durbster said:
Powerfully Built PSC Director - Outside IR35 said:
If you think this is all about black lives and/or slavery then you’re seriously deluded. Most people couldn’t give a fk about what happened last week let alone 300 - 400 years ago. No, this is about something else: the destabilisation of two democratically elected governments.
Interesting yet highly implausible view on things but it highlights an issue.k about what happened last week let alone 300 - 400 years ago. No, this is about something else: the destabilisation of two democratically elected governments.People are reluctant to accept these are real grievances because it means they have to confront an uncomfortable truth.
So instead they're lured by conspiracy theories in which there's some great power - some imagined white blokes, presumably - in control of it all.
BLM gives them an outlet, an ability to go out and vent their frustrations at the world behind the mask of it being about BLM. Whether they also support BLM or not no-one can say but I'd bet that there have been more than a few racist thugs out there just having a jolly smashing things up.
Everything can and will be politicised by those who think they have something to gain from it. Just look at the photo's of Starmer and Rayner taking the knee which was then followed by a picture of pretty much every Labour MP taking the knee.
chrispmartha said:
Not sure the best solution is to put up another statue this time glorifying street vandalism.Leon R said:
chrispmartha said:
Not sure the best solution is to put up another statue this time glorifying street vandalism.Theres a statue near me commemorating the Luddites.
bobbo89 said:
durbster said:
Powerfully Built PSC Director - Outside IR35 said:
If you think this is all about black lives and/or slavery then you’re seriously deluded. Most people couldn’t give a fk about what happened last week let alone 300 - 400 years ago. No, this is about something else: the destabilisation of two democratically elected governments.
Interesting yet highly implausible view on things but it highlights an issue.k about what happened last week let alone 300 - 400 years ago. No, this is about something else: the destabilisation of two democratically elected governments.People are reluctant to accept these are real grievances because it means they have to confront an uncomfortable truth.
So instead they're lured by conspiracy theories in which there's some great power - some imagined white blokes, presumably - in control of it all.
BLM gives them an outlet, an ability to go out and vent their frustrations at the world behind the mask of it being about BLM. Whether they also support BLM or not no-one can say but I'd bet that there have been more than a few racist thugs out there just having a jolly smashing things up.
Everything can and will be politicised by those who think they have something to gain from it. Just look at the photo's of Starmer and Rayner taking the knee which was then followed by a picture of pretty much every Labour MP taking the knee.
chrispmartha said:
Leon R said:
chrispmartha said:
Not sure the best solution is to put up another statue this time glorifying street vandalism.Theres a statue near me commemorating the Luddites.
Banksy said:
Here’s an idea that caters for both those who miss the Colston statue and those who don’t. We drag him out the water, put him back on the plinth, tie cable round his neck and commission some life size bronze statues of protestors in the act of pulling him down. Everyone happy. A famous day commemorated.
If the protestors were trying to take down a statue 'celebrating' slavery shouldnt it at least be a statue with a master and some slaves?Is there one anywhere?
chrispmartha said:
Leon R said:
chrispmartha said:
Not sure the best solution is to put up another statue this time glorifying street vandalism.Theres a statue near me commemorating the Luddites.
History should not be erased and I fully agree with that but it doesn't mean I think that there should be statues commemorating things like this.
There should be tolerance and understanding of the context of history, but I think if people really feel that strongly that these statues of figures with involvement in slavery should be removed then I don't feel strongly enough to be against it. As long as it's done in a considerate way that is not unlawfully. If it appeases certain peoples angst then so be it, it's an act of little consequence in the scheme of things, it doesn't change history but may help some people feel better about society.
I think the issue is where you draw the line, do we start removing statues of Churchill, monachs, etc.? If we go further down this road then there may be some difficult choices.
I'd like to see some replacement statues of perhaps more recent historical figures who aren't divisive in the modern age, ones who hopefully we can all celebrate.
I think the issue is where you draw the line, do we start removing statues of Churchill, monachs, etc.? If we go further down this road then there may be some difficult choices.
I'd like to see some replacement statues of perhaps more recent historical figures who aren't divisive in the modern age, ones who hopefully we can all celebrate.
How many thousands of statues live in museum stores never seen apart from maybe a few months when they get selected for an exhibition?
Surely the ones that we choose to display in public should be the best: the most important to us today; the most beautiful; the things we most want to remember.
Was the Bristol one pulled down really any of those?
Surely the ones that we choose to display in public should be the best: the most important to us today; the most beautiful; the things we most want to remember.
Was the Bristol one pulled down really any of those?
chrispmartha said:
smifffymoto said:
Like all other arguments this has turned into shouting down any body with an opposing view.
How far do we take it,remove statues,knock down buildings built with slave money,demolish the Albert dock in Liverpool because the warehouses stored goods in bought by slave trade money.
I’ve no problem with an opposing view, the problem is when you get posts like Jazzy Jags about Ainsley Harriot and IR35s posts, theres not really a sensible debate to be had is there.How far do we take it,remove statues,knock down buildings built with slave money,demolish the Albert dock in Liverpool because the warehouses stored goods in bought by slave trade money.
Im not even 100% myself where i stand in the issue but it’s quite obvious that its about how slavery is seen to be celebrated and not erasing it from history or knocking down buildings, or the bloody EU or Hillary Clinton.
At the same time as stating that former criminal convictions should be no barrier to future employment and even that they should be hidden from those employing them, the BLM movement offer no such concession to somebody who did a huge amount for the people of Bristol in his later life because of his former one. The hypocrisy is staggering...
i_alan_i said:
How many thousands of statues live in museum stores never seen apart from maybe a few months when they get selected for an exhibition?
Surely the ones that we choose to display in public should be the best: the most important to us today; the most beautiful; the things we most want to remember.
Was the Bristol one pulled down really any of those?
Isn’t it just a reward from Ye olde Bristol council (or whoever) for donating loads of money to Bristol and building lots with his slave money? Surely the ones that we choose to display in public should be the best: the most important to us today; the most beautiful; the things we most want to remember.
Was the Bristol one pulled down really any of those?
No different to people getting peerages or honours or honorary degrees etc for loyalty to the party or donating money etc.
If you have loads of money it must be interesting to see which awards you can actually buy. Like If you said to the local council, I’ll donate x amount of money and build a school etc but only if I get a statue in town, saying how awesome and virtuous I am etc.
Vanden Saab said:
And there is where you lose me... The statue was not celebrating slavery, quite the opposite as it was celebrating his work in the town and made no mention of it. Now, apparently the problem was that there was no mention of slavery. There is even a suggestion that a plaque should have been added explaining how his philanthropy was possible due to his participation in the slave trade and that would make it ok.
At the same time as stating that former criminal convictions should be no barrier to future employment and even that they should be hidden from those employing them, the BLM movement offer no such concession to somebody who did a huge amount for the people of Bristol in his later life because of his former one. The hypocrisy is staggering...
What is your view on British history of slavery Vanden Saab? At the same time as stating that former criminal convictions should be no barrier to future employment and even that they should be hidden from those employing them, the BLM movement offer no such concession to somebody who did a huge amount for the people of Bristol in his later life because of his former one. The hypocrisy is staggering...
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