The Irish border
Discussion
MC Bodge said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
I doubt many people voting in Great Britain gave NI any consideration and dont give a stuff about it.
I doubt that many of the people voting to leave the EU gave a stuff about anything substantive.MC Bodge said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
I doubt many people voting in Great Britain gave NI any consideration and dont give a stuff about it.
I doubt that many of the people voting to leave the EU gave a stuff about anything substantive.
Earthdweller said:
s2art said:
Jimboka said:
So nothing in place to stop those pesky EU nationals wandering into the UK ? & vice versa?
Doesn’t fit with the ‘take back control’ rhetoric
Why? They could simply take a plane to Luton if they wanted to visit the UK. Why bother going via ROI?Doesn’t fit with the ‘take back control’ rhetoric
There is free movement between UK and ROI as per the CTA
It makes no sense for a Frenchman to travel to the ROI so they can get into the U.K. .. no sense at all
Then wander into NI/UK & we wouldnt know they are here.
Whereas if they flew to Luton, we would know & the yet to be defined process will kick in.
Unless there are checks done at the ROI-NI border. Or NI-Mainland. Both of which are not acceptable to our governments support DUP. Therein lies the problem.
Is my belief incorrect?
soupdragon1 said:
The Surveyor said:
We already have a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, it works very well at the moment despite different Governments, Currency, and Laws either side.
Both the North and South want a border, they just don't want it to be a barrier.
A post brexit border is different though, which I'm sure you recognise?Both the North and South want a border, they just don't want it to be a barrier.
Jimboka said:
I'd have thought that post brexit, any EU national could enter ROI as they do now. Via Border control, but makes no odds as part of EU.
Then wander into NI/UK & we wouldnt know they are here.
Whereas if they flew to Luton, we would know & the yet to be defined process will kick in.
Unless there are checks done at the ROI-NI border. Or NI-Mainland. Both of which are not acceptable to our governments support DUP. Therein lies the problem.
Is my belief incorrect?
Border controls between NI and ROI are against the terms of the treaty defining the Belfast Agreement terms. This is fundamentally incompatible with a border between the UK as a whole and the EU. The DUP don’t really matter in this instance, although May hasn’t helped things by getting in cahoots to prop up her government after a ballsed up election.Then wander into NI/UK & we wouldnt know they are here.
Whereas if they flew to Luton, we would know & the yet to be defined process will kick in.
Unless there are checks done at the ROI-NI border. Or NI-Mainland. Both of which are not acceptable to our governments support DUP. Therein lies the problem.
Is my belief incorrect?
abzmike said:
Jimboka said:
I'd have thought that post brexit, any EU national could enter ROI as they do now. Via Border control, but makes no odds as part of EU.
Then wander into NI/UK & we wouldnt know they are here.
Whereas if they flew to Luton, we would know & the yet to be defined process will kick in.
Unless there are checks done at the ROI-NI border. Or NI-Mainland. Both of which are not acceptable to our governments support DUP. Therein lies the problem.
Is my belief incorrect?
Border controls between NI and ROI are against the terms of the treaty defining the Belfast Agreement terms. This is fundamentally incompatible with a border between the UK as a whole and the EU. The DUP don’t really matter in this instance, although May hasn’t helped things by getting in cahoots to prop up her government after a ballsed up election.Then wander into NI/UK & we wouldnt know they are here.
Whereas if they flew to Luton, we would know & the yet to be defined process will kick in.
Unless there are checks done at the ROI-NI border. Or NI-Mainland. Both of which are not acceptable to our governments support DUP. Therein lies the problem.
Is my belief incorrect?
Movement of people is covered by the Common Travel Area, which predates the EU by decades. In essence it works a bit like Schengen does for people - once they're in they're in, no borders. That means that RoI have been effectively policing UK immigration across the NI border for decades anyway.
Post Brexit that's unlikely to change. Visa-free travel from the EU to the UK is almost a dead certainty (in as much as anything can be at the moment) so why would you bother traveling by land across the border when you could just go direct?
For any third country national the Irish are unlikely to let them into RoI without the appropriate visa anyway.
All that is entirely separate from the movement of goods, which is what the debate about the border is really all about.
Jimboka said:
I'd have thought that post brexit, any EU national could enter ROI as they do now. Via Border control, but makes no odds as part of EU.
Then wander into NI/UK & we wouldnt know they are here.
Whereas if they flew to Luton, we would know & the yet to be defined process will kick in.
Unless there are checks done at the ROI-NI border. Or NI-Mainland. Both of which are not acceptable to our governments support DUP. Therein lies the problem.
Is my belief incorrect?
There is no 'yet to be defined process'.Then wander into NI/UK & we wouldnt know they are here.
Whereas if they flew to Luton, we would know & the yet to be defined process will kick in.
Unless there are checks done at the ROI-NI border. Or NI-Mainland. Both of which are not acceptable to our governments support DUP. Therein lies the problem.
Is my belief incorrect?
They will show a passport (if the immigration officer can be bothered to look at it) at Luton. Just as now, just as before we joined the EU.
It seems like May prefers the “hybrid customs we’ll collect your tariffs and pay you EU” option. This annoys brexiteers whi consider it unicorn like.
Brexiteers want to stick with the technology option which EU thinks won’t work and it sounds like May think is pie in sky.
Is there a third magic solution in the wings or are we heading for the fallback?
The two govt preferred options don’t seem very convincing do they?
Brexiteers want to stick with the technology option which EU thinks won’t work and it sounds like May think is pie in sky.
Is there a third magic solution in the wings or are we heading for the fallback?
The two govt preferred options don’t seem very convincing do they?
Gloria Slap said:
It seems like May prefers the “hybrid customs we’ll collect your tariffs and pay you EU” option. This annoys brexiteers whi consider it unicorn like.
Brexiteers want to stick with the technology option which EU thinks won’t work and it sounds like May think is pie in sky.
Is there a third magic solution in the wings or are we heading for the fallback?
The two govt preferred options don’t seem very convincing do they?
I didn't think the cabinet had any preferred option, the options being open for debate as part of the process taking on board the responses from the EU. The Brexiteers are just adding some leverage to their opinion, its just politics!Brexiteers want to stick with the technology option which EU thinks won’t work and it sounds like May think is pie in sky.
Is there a third magic solution in the wings or are we heading for the fallback?
The two govt preferred options don’t seem very convincing do they?
Gloria Slap said:
It seems like May prefers the “hybrid customs we’ll collect your tariffs and pay you EU” option. This annoys brexiteers whi consider it unicorn like.
Hopefully we'll find out what she 'prefers' today.It annoys me because it's an unholy mess that is being pushed by people who appear to want the security blanket of something with "customs" and a synonym for "union" in the title. In practise it falls in the "worst possible compromise" camp by both hampering our trade policy and tying us to EU oversight in the name of 'protecting' existing trade.
I have to say brexit is getting interesting.
We have a split conservative party. Some want a sort of CU. What’s funny is that a CU is really only about tariffs and that the smallest part of the problem with an Irish solution it’s the SM which creates the need for a formal border.
About 60 conservatives want a clean exit even if it catastrophic for the UK economy, and it will be.
Will the 60 topple TM in the hope of taking control of brexit? That will be fun and will see the conservatives out of power for a generation. If they do get TM out and a remainer wins what will they do?
The EU has split the tory party for 20 years. Will it finally kill it?
Meanwhile in the real world Barnier is confirming the UK must present a workable solution for Ireland or accept the EU fall back of a water border or the transition deal cannot proceed.
We have a split conservative party. Some want a sort of CU. What’s funny is that a CU is really only about tariffs and that the smallest part of the problem with an Irish solution it’s the SM which creates the need for a formal border.
About 60 conservatives want a clean exit even if it catastrophic for the UK economy, and it will be.
Will the 60 topple TM in the hope of taking control of brexit? That will be fun and will see the conservatives out of power for a generation. If they do get TM out and a remainer wins what will they do?
The EU has split the tory party for 20 years. Will it finally kill it?
Meanwhile in the real world Barnier is confirming the UK must present a workable solution for Ireland or accept the EU fall back of a water border or the transition deal cannot proceed.
jjlynn27 said:
MC Bodge said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
I doubt many people voting in Great Britain gave NI any consideration and dont give a stuff about it.
I doubt that many of the people voting to leave the EU gave a stuff about anything substantive.
king rude of you, I must say. You've no idea of anyone's individual motivations, yet you see fit to tar everyone. Call a stranger a racist in a real-world situation and you'll likely get a well-deserved punch. So don't do it here, please.The particular hard border you're such an enormous fan of has white people on the inside, and keeps non-white people on the outside, doesn't it?
Mrr T said:
I have to say brexit is getting interesting.
We have a split conservative party. Some want a sort of CU. What’s funny is that a CU is really only about tariffs and that the smallest part of the problem with an Irish solution it’s the SM which creates the need for a formal border.
About 60 conservatives want a clean exit even if it catastrophic for the UK economy, and it will be.
Will the 60 topple TM in the hope of taking control of brexit? That will be fun and will see the conservatives out of power for a generation. If they do get TM out and a remainer wins what will they do?
The EU has split the tory party for 20 years. Will it finally kill it?
Meanwhile in the real world Barnier is confirming the UK must present a workable solution for Ireland or accept the EU fall back of a water border or the transition deal cannot proceed.
You're assuming of course that if the Conservatives are toppled due to the implementation of a Brexit they never actually wanted, that Labour would do a better job! Corbyn and the rest of the Labour front-bench's silence on the whole of Brexit continues to be deafening, and any party that fails to deliver Brexit knows it won't hold power for long. Labour knows most of their traditional strong-hold working class areas (North West, Yorkshire, Wales, Midlands etc) voted predominantly to leave so failing to deliver a meaningful Brexit will be a huge problem for them come the next GE.We have a split conservative party. Some want a sort of CU. What’s funny is that a CU is really only about tariffs and that the smallest part of the problem with an Irish solution it’s the SM which creates the need for a formal border.
About 60 conservatives want a clean exit even if it catastrophic for the UK economy, and it will be.
Will the 60 topple TM in the hope of taking control of brexit? That will be fun and will see the conservatives out of power for a generation. If they do get TM out and a remainer wins what will they do?
The EU has split the tory party for 20 years. Will it finally kill it?
Meanwhile in the real world Barnier is confirming the UK must present a workable solution for Ireland or accept the EU fall back of a water border or the transition deal cannot proceed.
Also, how can Barnier insist that Northern Ireland stays in the EU when it's part of the country who is leaving the EU. He's demented if he thinks that's a workable solution?
Mrr T said:
I have to say brexit is getting interesting.
We have a split conservative party. Some want a sort of CU. What’s funny is that a CU is really only about tariffs and that the smallest part of the problem with an Irish solution it’s the SM which creates the need for a formal border.
About 60 conservatives want a clean exit even if it catastrophic for the UK economy, and it will be.
Will the 60 topple TM in the hope of taking control of brexit? That will be fun and will see the conservatives out of power for a generation. If they do get TM out and a remainer wins what will they do?
The EU has split the tory party for 20 years. Will it finally kill it?
Meanwhile in the real world Barnier is confirming the UK must present a workable solution for Ireland or accept the EU fall back of a water border or the transition deal cannot proceed.
Of course the primary issue is that the future of the Tory party is more important to the Tories than the future of the nation... Everything else is secondary. The Tories will eventually implode, goodness knows what mess they will leave behind.We have a split conservative party. Some want a sort of CU. What’s funny is that a CU is really only about tariffs and that the smallest part of the problem with an Irish solution it’s the SM which creates the need for a formal border.
About 60 conservatives want a clean exit even if it catastrophic for the UK economy, and it will be.
Will the 60 topple TM in the hope of taking control of brexit? That will be fun and will see the conservatives out of power for a generation. If they do get TM out and a remainer wins what will they do?
The EU has split the tory party for 20 years. Will it finally kill it?
Meanwhile in the real world Barnier is confirming the UK must present a workable solution for Ireland or accept the EU fall back of a water border or the transition deal cannot proceed.
The Surveyor said:
Also, how can Barnier insist that Northern Ireland stays in the EU when it's part of the country who is leaving the EU. He's demented if he thinks that's a workable solution?
Barnier is not insisting, the proposal is from the Council.Ireland will not be part of the EU but will maintain regulatory and customs alignment.
The solution works but is politically unacceptable to the UK.
The UK needs to therefore find a workable solution. Unicorns any one.
Mrr T said:
Meanwhile in the real world Barnier is confirming the UK must present a workable solution for Ireland or accept the EU fall back of a water border or the transition deal cannot proceed.
The 'real world'?! Barnier: "You must present a workable solution, or we will enforce an unworkable solution". Brilliant.Tuna said:
Mrr T said:
Meanwhile in the real world Barnier is confirming the UK must present a workable solution for Ireland or accept the EU fall back of a water border or the transition deal cannot proceed.
The 'real world'?! Barnier: "You must present a workable solution, or we will enforce an unworkable solution". Brilliant.RoI says no? s
tstorm.RoI says yes? Different s
tstorm.It's within the EU's own rules for NI to leave the EU, and the situation in Ireland was no secret when the EU's rules allowing NI to leave were drawn-up, by the EU.
A50 could easily have said something like "If the UK of GB & NI enact A50, then the GFA and CTA will no longer apply and a formal border will be established between NI and ROI."
Then the UK could have decided whether to sign it or not.
Instead the EU chose not to address it at all, thus leaving a battle of 'your rules vs our rules' and leaving any solution potentially up for grabs.
This is a shared problem.
Tuna said:
Mrr T said:
Meanwhile in the real world Barnier is confirming the UK must present a workable solution for Ireland or accept the EU fall back of a water border or the transition deal cannot proceed.
The 'real world'?! Barnier: "You must present a workable solution, or we will enforce an unworkable solution". Brilliant.
You cant help but feel that this farce will be over soon. As I said on the May thread (Brexit on threads everywhere) we are probably going to have fresh elections by the autumn if things continue as they are.
SpeckledJim said:
Tuna said:
Mrr T said:
Meanwhile in the real world Barnier is confirming the UK must present a workable solution for Ireland or accept the EU fall back of a water border or the transition deal cannot proceed.
The 'real world'?! Barnier: "You must present a workable solution, or we will enforce an unworkable solution". Brilliant.RoI says no? s
tstorm.RoI says yes? Different s
tstorm.It's within the EU's own rules for NI to leave the EU, and the situation in Ireland was no secret when the EU's rules allowing NI to leave were drawn-up, by the EU.
A50 could easily have said something like "If the UK of GB & NI enact A50, then the GFA and CTA will no longer apply and a formal border will be established between NI and ROI."
Then the UK could have decided whether to sign it or not.
Instead the EU chose not to address it at all, thus leaving a battle of 'your rules vs our rules' and leaving any solution potentially up for grabs.
This is a shared problem.
The EU is not telling the ROI to put up a border. The ROI has adopted into its laws the many directives/regulations on the SM and the CU.
The ROI government oddly enough accepts it needs to follow its own laws.
The EU has not changed it laws at all it’s the UK which is leaving the EU and has also chosen to leave the SM and the CU meaning a border for goods is required.
The problem is caused by decision made by the UK. The EU therefore expects the UK to have a solution. I mean surely before the UK announced it would leave the SM and CU it must have had a solution.
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